[Druid] Raiding as a Tree - Page 41

Aciara · 05/15/08, 7:46 AM

Originally Posted by the_mort

I've seen sunwell only up to Felmyst, and i feel very useful in that encounter, i'm in the tank group stacking Lifebloom/Rejuvenation on him (and the occasional Regrowth) and heal my Group through the constant damage with with Lifebloom (letting them Bloom). You can NS/Regrowth on encapsulate and heal in P2 while running away from the beam just fine.

I do the burn healing on Brutallus together with an other healer (just stacking lifeblooms on the burn victims) and keeping lifebloom on the tank aswell.

I feel very useful in those fights, but personally i wouldn't bring more than 2 resto druids to a raid if I had other options to fill the spot (Shamans).

Just to add to this, I find lifebloom vs raiddmg on Felmyst to be a very bad idea because people aren't kept up (or at least near) 100% life, if encapsulate comes at a bad time some of those people might/will die. I keep a rejuvenation on everyone in my group I'm supposed to heal and keep a 3xlb running on the tank, this works out alot better imho due to the nature of the raiddmg (1k dmg every 3 seconds, where my reju goes for 1100 every 3). If my group that I'm healing doesn't get dispelled on time I usually get 1-2 chain heals from the shamans and help them by using lifebloom aswell. This together keeps people at a higher health level imho which is a important part of this fight.

malthrin · 05/15/08, 10:39 AM

Yes, Rejuv is definitely the way to go on Felmyst for group healing. As Aciara mentioned, it is much better suited to countering the periodic AoE damage than Lifebloom is. It also yields the benefit of being able to Swiftmend immediately if someone in your group gets Encapsulated.

Sheshonk · 05/15/08, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Imalinata

I follow this thread pretty closely, and I've looked for other threads, but haven't found any that address or mention this issue. If there is one and I've missed it, please point me in that direction.

My guild has killed Kalecgos and we're likely going to be starting attempts on Brutallus this timer. We did have 3 resto druids and at times all three of us were in the raid mostly because A) we run very minimally so that we don't have a lot of guild bloat and people sitting for raids and B) one of the druids stacked spirit so he was consistently in the tank group which gave us a reason to bring three. Due to some issues that we had, the spirit stacking druid is no longer in our guild and we're running with just two. When asked if we were now recruiting another druid, I was told no because 'druids aren't great farther in Sunwell'. After pushing for clarification, the reason given was that druids are still good, but there are other classes that could fill the healing spot better, and since hots don't scale well there's no real reason to bring more than one, maybe two, to raids.

Since I've not seen any mention regarding the decay in our effectiveness the farther through Sunwell a guild progresses, I'm skeptical. Based on some of your posts I believe we do have a few raid leaders/guild leaders/people who do healing assignments contributing here and I'm quite interested in your take on this. For the guilds farther in Sunwell, would you cut down on your druids if given the chance?

I'm at the same progression point as you, so can't give any specifics, but I sure can give a few generalizations...

HoTs actually scale the best with gear. The problem is when other direct healers get comfortable with a fight, they tend to get so good at their assignments your HoTs are overhealed to a much greater extent.

From a raid leader perspective, they are looking to get the most DPS in the raid as possible. They only want to take as many tanks and healers you need to avoid wipes. Thats why you see ferals being a strong option for off tanks in raids, they can go cat during the boss and not hurt raid DPS as much as a prot war. The same goes for healers to an extent. A coh priest can put out more healing than a shaman, but thats not enough. The priest is going to be overlooked because a shaman adds more raid utility via totems/blust.

If you are looking to make the argument to pickup additional trees in the raid to a DPSer, you have to make the argument that you can take 1 less total healer by using 1 more tree in the raid. Giving the raid leader an additional DPS slot to play with. A tree's greatest strength is their ability to raid heal with little detriment to tank healing, this allows a tree to fulfill both tank and raid healing roles at the same time.

At the end of the day, both druids and priests will play second fiddle to Pali blessings and Shaman totem/blust. They just don't have the raid utility to compete.

Kalaghan · 05/15/08, 2:22 PM

I'm just wondering if a small revision might be needed to the first page. "Druids later in this thread have reported success in the 180-220 haste range." I know there were 1 or 2 posts of this being possible on the PTR (196 stands out in my mind), but I'm sitting at 221 haste right now and have never managed to get past a 2-stack when trying to use a 5-cast cycle. I had previously thought 250 haste seemed reasonable, and am now thinking that is probably a bear minimum. I never have any trouble at all keeping 4 3-stacks up without spell haste, for the record (generally I wait a split second before re-starting my cycle).

Are others honestly maintaining a 5-cast cycle with ~200 spell haste? Or does this number/range need to be revised to something more reasonable?

ppilatee · 05/15/08, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kalaghan

I'm just wondering if a small revision might be needed to the first page. "Druids later in this thread have reported success in the 180-220 haste range." I know there were 1 or 2 posts of this being possible on the PTR (196 stands out in my mind), but I'm sitting at 221 haste right now and have never managed to get past a 2-stack when trying to use a 5-cast cycle. I had previously thought 250 haste seemed reasonable, and am now thinking that is probably a bear minimum. I never have any trouble at all keeping 4 3-stacks up without spell haste, for the record (generally I wait a split second before re-starting my cycle).

Are others honestly maintaining a 5-cast cycle with ~200 spell haste? Or does this number/range need to be revised to something more reasonable?

I've noticed pretty much the same thing, even with 270 haste, keeping 3x5 up in a raid setting was rather difficult, if not impossible... (3 Lifebloooms, 3 Rejuvs was more sustainable, but that's slightly different) maybe there's a way to more effectively hit every gcd with no break, but even with the Quartz GCD spark, I failed pretty hard.

◊ Noressa · 05/15/08, 4:55 PM

Honestly, it's near impossible for me at 250 to keep up anything remotely resembling lifeblooms rolling on 5 people. Only with practice at 280 is it something I consider doing. If someone else with a high amount of haste could speak to this that would be great.

• Melador · 05/15/08, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Imalinata

Since I've not seen any mention regarding the decay in our effectiveness the farther through Sunwell a guild progresses, I'm skeptical. Based on some of your posts I believe we do have a few raid leaders/guild leaders/people who do healing assignments contributing here and I'm quite interested in your take on this. For the guilds farther in Sunwell, would you cut down on your druids if given the chance?

A single druid is great throughout Sunwell. You will be hurting if you don't have one. Two is probably pretty good. Three is almost certainly overkill -- you'd be much better off taking another healing class (probably shaman).

But no, the fights do not get less druid-friendly the deeper you get in Sunwell. Here's our Sunwell clear on Tuesday: Wow Web Stats

Dynalisia · 05/15/08, 8:08 PM

Just going to tag along on the haste needed for 5-LB stacks thing: I wasn't able to consistantly pull it off at 237 rating either.

And I've probably made my previous post a lot more unclear than there was any reason for. To clarify, I believe that shamans are without doubt the hottest choice around in Sunwell, but a good, well geared druid certainly holds his own, even if he's the third one in a raidgroup.

Benita · 05/16/08, 4:21 AM

With 250 haste, 120ms and just focusing on the gcd spark spamming my macro buttons i can pull it off. If i have to move sometimes to maintain healing range or want to actually pay attention who i heal outside my assigned targets, it gets more complicated and i think i would need about 300 haste to get it more stable there.

I do the raid leading in our guild, so some encounters don't really favour me tunnel visioning the healing part, but a good example where i didn't have to lead anything and could at least for a while LB 5 targets (tanks and 3 burns) was this Wow Web Stats

I switch out higher +heal items for haste if i dont think i can maintain 5 gcd's, 150 haste or so is enough to make the 3gcd and regrowth rotation comfortable.

the_mort · 05/16/08, 6:22 AM

Originally Posted by Aciara

Just to add to this, I find lifebloom vs raiddmg on Felmyst to be a very bad idea because people aren't kept up (or at least near) 100% life, if encapsulate comes at a bad time some of those people might/will die. I keep a rejuvenation on everyone in my group I'm supposed to heal and keep a 3xlb running on the tank, this works out alot better imho due to the nature of the raiddmg (1k dmg every 3 seconds, where my reju goes for 1100 every 3). If my group that I'm healing doesn't get dispelled on time I usually get 1-2 chain heals from the shamans and help them by using lifebloom aswell. This together keeps people at a higher health level imho which is a important part of this fight.

My Lifebloom ticks for 3xx fully raid buffed (and amp magic on on everyone in my Group). So i can keep my group topped with lifeblooming them. Reju for Swiftmend is a good point tough, I try to NS/Regrowth encapsulated targets while i run away.

Dynalisia · 05/16/08, 9:29 AM

I think spellchoice on Felmyst depends more on your event timers than anything else. Using Lifebloom to hold up your group in a nominal situation is just fine and the most efficient choice. But if something like Encap can go off at any moment, I'll switch to rejuvs as well. Frankly, this counts for all encounters. Throwing out a number of SM'able spells on the advent of a heavy raid damage event going off is always a good idea if you can afford it.

It also has to do with your gear choice. I usually wear some haste gear on felmyst so I can throw around lifeblooms on sensitive targets like melees in a ranged group (we don't usually have a perfect raid lately) or heal people through the start of p2, when their grouphealers lose a lot of their efficiency, without getting my own timers and assignment in a knot. This does mean I'm lower on regen though, so I need to pay more attention to being efficient than if I'd wear an endurance set.

Jadedimage · 05/16/08, 10:07 AM

Great post. A friend of mine had directed me to the EJ forums a while back, and being as I'm relatively new to Tree Form since things have been adjusted, this was amazingly helpful, though admittedly the numbers were a hair over my mathematically retarded brain. I respecced yesterday from Dreamstate/Resto spec, and was skeptical at best. The last time I had been a walking shrubbery was well before Black Temple... or even SSC. I had swapped to Dreamstate then due to my old, pre-BC raiding habits, and never looked back. Until some people had talked me into giving it another go.

The rotations and general explanation of every must-know detail of being a ToL Druid should definitely decrease my need to use my 'OH NO!' button... AKA NS+HT macro.

So, again, thank you for the information and understanding that being a walking shrubbery can be more beneficial than I had first thought. (Even if I did lose 68 mp5 and 300+Healing). Thanks to everyone that supplied additional info in replies, as well.

• giansm · 05/16/08, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Kalaghan

I'm just wondering if a small revision might be needed to the first page. "Druids later in this thread have reported success in the 180-220 haste range." I know there were 1 or 2 posts of this being possible on the PTR (196 stands out in my mind), but I'm sitting at 221 haste right now and have never managed to get past a 2-stack when trying to use a 5-cast cycle. I had previously thought 250 haste seemed reasonable, and am now thinking that is probably a bear minimum. I never have any trouble at all keeping 4 3-stacks up without spell haste, for the record (generally I wait a split second before re-starting my cycle).

Are others honestly maintaining a 5-cast cycle with ~200 spell haste? Or does this number/range need to be revised to something more reasonable?

Hmm I don't have any personal experience with this since the most I can get is 110 or so haste. I'll keep an eye on whether anyone responds to this for the next couple of days and if not I'll revise the estimate upwards a little.

malthrin · 05/16/08, 11:54 AM

Let's talk about Innervates again, since it just came up in the Arcane Mage thread. I usually end up using my Innervate on a Shadow Priest or Mage most fights, sometimes on a combat rez if they're a spirit-using class. On learning attempts of new bosses, I'll usually be Innervating myself, moving to pots+drums as we start reaching for a kill. Does anyone have a different experience?

Dynalisia · 05/16/08, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by malthrin

Let's talk about Innervates again, since it just came up in the Arcane Mage thread. I usually end up using my Innervate on a Shadow Priest or Mage most fights, sometimes on a combat rez if they're a spirit-using class. On learning attempts of new bosses, I'll usually be Innervating myself, moving to pots+drums as we start reaching for a kill. Does anyone have a different experience?

My experience is identical, just to throw in some feedback.

Multani · 05/16/08, 4:56 PM

I'm curious as to when you think I should start stacking haste.

From what I've read, somewhere between 220 and 250 haste is what I'll need for 5 blooms. We just downed Brutallus last night and I was gearing for this by mainly stacking spirit, even going so far as to use Raven Goddess idol and match a few one-socket 4 heal bonuses with 11/5's (the remainder being 22's). This was mainly just because the way our tanks are geared, hots don't do anything on Brut and I don't need that much healing to keep the burned people up.

I'm a fairly firm believer in spirit because pre-haste buff there was no real reason to stack any other stat (aside from healing). Obviously until Sunwell though, haste and spirit have been on seperate gear. I'm very low on DKP and the only real reason I'll be taking haste gear is because it all happens to be better then t6, so I don't plan on having a lot very soon. Assuming I get enough, do you think its worth gemming full haste to reach the 235 haste mark? Does haste play as well as it would in Kalec and probably Felmyst later in Sunwell, or does it kinda wish it was healing like Brutallus? Should I just fuck spirit altogether and start stacking haste for amusement?

Traek · 05/16/08, 5:34 PM

For druids, I do not believe that trying to gem for haste is the way to go. However, I would still think it's important to consider how much +heal you do have. I prefer to gear for haste since by comparison to other items out there, haste items will have more or similar +heal than a similar item with mp5 on it. It should be relatively easy to get close to 220-235 with a good set of sunwell items, even without the particularly good drops from m'uru and twins. It probably would be worth it to use a few haste gems for the IED requirement or for socket bonuses. I just like my HoTs ticking for more, especially lifebloom.

Late in Sunwell, such as at m'uru, haste is very useful so you can fit in regrowth in regular HoT rotations. But by that point you have access to most of the best haste items out there (twins offhand, twins shoulders, t6 pieces) and would easily put you upwards of 200 haste without any gems.

starcore · 05/16/08, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by Kalaghan

I'm just wondering if a small revision might be needed to the first page. "Druids later in this thread have reported success in the 180-220 haste range." I know there were 1 or 2 posts of this being possible on the PTR (196 stands out in my mind), but I'm sitting at 221 haste right now and have never managed to get past a 2-stack when trying to use a 5-cast cycle. I had previously thought 250 haste seemed reasonable, and am now thinking that is probably a bear minimum. I never have any trouble at all keeping 4 3-stacks up without spell haste, for the record (generally I wait a split second before re-starting my cycle).

Are others honestly maintaining a 5-cast cycle with ~200 spell haste? Or does this number/range need to be revised to something more reasonable?

I have been fairly successful maintaining 5 cast cycles with as little as ~220 haste, even with my horrible Australian latency fluctuation, but only if I have at least 3 of the 5 casts triggered by G15 macro (generally 3-4 predetermined lifebloom stacks with 1-2 GCT slots free to weave rejuv/regrowth as necessary).

• Playered · 05/16/08, 10:25 PM

Im curious if anyone has tried using T3 Bracers/Ring on Felmyst and fights like that where you use Rejuvenation more consistantly?
The loss is roughly 90 healing and you get between 0-2 procs per Rejuvenation..

Ribeye · 05/17/08, 12:10 AM

For felmyst, there is no 1 spell that works the entire fight. For P1. I like to wait a little bit untill the raid damage starts to hit then toss out as many lifeblooms as I can before the Gas Nova hits. At that point, I can count on a lot of chain heals to catch most people up so I quickly scan the raid for anyone that wasn't topped off before the Nova. These people need a quick immediate heal so I get them with Max Regrow. I usually spam 4 or 5 of these, hit the tank with a couple hots and watch the dragon to see which way he's going to turn on Encap. For encap, either run away rejuv/sming myself, or stand in place and target anyone else running from encap.

In p2, as we are all running around crazily avoiding the beams, this is my turn to shine. I spam the raid (priests first) with rejuves and Swiftmend anyone that is in dire need of a heal. As soon as the second beam hits and is officially not on me, I once again find a good spot near the paladin and spam regrowth, keeping a full set of hots on the Paly tank as well.

I'm usually near the top of the meters on this one, assuming I don't die stupidly. Here is a link of the most recent Fellmyst kill parse.

Wow Web Stats

• Playered · 05/17/08, 9:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ribeye

In p2, as we are all running around crazily avoiding the beams, this is my turn to shine. I spam the raid (priests first) with rejuves and Swiftmend anyone that is in dire need of a heal. As soon as the second beam hits and is officially not on me, I once again find a good spot near the paladin and spam regrowth, keeping a full set of hots on the Paly tank as well.

I'm usually near the top of the meters on this one, assuming I don't die stupidly. Here is a link of the most recent Fellmyst kill parse.

Wow Web Stats

Im curious why you use RJ on Felmyst P2 though aside from Priests or Resto Shamans.
I've found LB to be a much better tool due to the final tick of healing being associated to the target instead of yourself, and unless you get Tranquil Air totem it can be really risky to go that full out on healing threat personally.
I once started going full out (RJ/RG) before the breaths in P2 (while the green beams were up) and I proceeded to get nuked to hell by skeles in an abnormally persistant manner and ever since then I have been relucant to use anything bar LB in P2.

WWS - a comparison, our healing done is not far off but if you check the amount of lifebloom on mine and yours theres a fair amount of difference, and I mean associated to raid members not the Druids themselves.

(please ignore the rather sloppy end half of BT, and the random deaths inc the Pala tank during Sunwell :S)

Ribeye · 05/17/08, 11:55 AM

When I learn a fight I don't usually get a lot of direction from raid leaders. Mostly they say, "heal everything," or "do what you do." For this reason I tend to walk into a fight as a blank slate and focus 100pct on filling in the gaps in healing. If it appears tanks are dying, I cycle hots on them. If all the rogues constantly die I focus on them. In the case of Felmyst. I found that our priests were constantly dying in P2. Because of this, and my obvious ability to heal while running around, I made an active decision to save them every time we got there, and rejuve was the best candidate because its Swiftmendable. That isn't to say I won't use a Lifebloom as well but my iniital reaction is rejuves on every clothy in range.

The first few tries I pulled a little aggro before the Paly could gather the skellies but I just asked one of the wars to follow me around and taunt anything they saw on me. Also, as far as spamming regrowth. One trick I use, and this works in many fights where you might pull some agro, is spam regrowths as usual and the second the aggro monitor alerts you that you pulled something, hit barkskin and apply full hots to yourself. The intent isn't to "save" yourself, but to put up a buffer so the rest of the healers can "save" you. I've always preferred healing myself out of trouble rather than just shifting into bear and hoping for the best. Horrible habit in Pvp though.

Piaf · 05/18/08, 8:51 AM

Originally Posted by Playered

Im curious why you use RJ on Felmyst P2 though aside from Priests or Resto Shamans.
I've found LB to be a much