[Druid] Raiding as a Tree - Page 52

MystRayne · 06/27/08, 1:56 AM

Originally Posted by Daedalix

Myst - finding what addons work best is something that's a personal decision. Is Andro a new tree to the raid or are you? Sounds like you just need to shake off some old bad habits. Perhaps he's reluctant to share his ideas because he's not really sure himself what he's doing vs. you. Making sure the appropriate hots never fall off tanks and keeping those HoTs on multiple targets is probably your biggest weakness, judging from your posts. Though if you've killed Illidan, chances are you aren't that bad at it.

I am the new druid, thanx for asking. Last night I did the Twins Fight, (herewith wwstats if you could look through, I was assigned to heal on the Warlock Tank - Wow Web Stats. Having been reading the responses so far, I did implement what I thought people were trying to tell me. Here is a pic of my UI, as Evenara asked about it as well. During the actual fight I was running at between 5-18 fps. However, that one fight, altho improved a bit, is still not good enough. As you can see, I still have Chronometer running, but as I am trying to cut down on the number of addons, as perhaps those cause FPS Droppage/Lag Issues, now that I have a countdown set within Grid, perhaps it means I can get rid of Chronometer.

Thank you again for the input, it is much appreciated.

• Arawethion · 06/27/08, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by Daedalix

I'm a fan of keeping Grid relatively small to decrease the amount of time it takes to target different members of the raid

Pedantry: It's non-obvious that a smaller Grid reduces the time it takes to click on one frame. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say it slows things down a bit. In your case, it probably just works well for you because you've gotten used to it, but I wouldn't encourage people in general to expect a smaller Grid to result in faster click times.

For me at least, the time it takes to move my mouse from A to B and click on B seems independent of the distance between A and B on the screen, but highly dependent on the size of the target area at B. Maybe this is because I have a habit from years of playing games of keeping my mouse extremely sensitive (I can cover the whole screen in maybe a 2" square of mouse movement), but there's no reason at all that moving the mouse pointer across the screen takes longer than moving it a short distance. The only component that takes any time is making sure I'm in the target area before I click. Point is, I definitely can accurately and comfortably click on raid members faster with a large Grid.

• giansm · 06/27/08, 11:34 AM

I thought this was an interesting question so I did some research. If you believe Fitts's law then it actually doesn't matter what size your Grid frames are. It says that the time needed to shift "aim" from one area to another is proportional to this logarithm:

$\log{ \Big(\frac{D}{W} + 1\Big)}$

where D is the distance to be traveled and W is the error allowed in the final destination. The formula appears to be pretty well supported by experiment and is based on the assumption that you will generally move the mouse very quickly at first and then slow down as you reach your target in order to improve your accuracy. The initial speed you move the mouse at is assumed to be based on how far away the target is (farther targets mean faster initial mouse speed). When you reach the target then you have succeeded and you stop moving your mouse.

Both D and W are influenced by your Grid frame size, since with bigger frames you have longer to move and also a larger target to hit. Intuitively you might guess based on this that the Grid frame size doesn't matter, and this is correct if you work out the math (assuming I did it properly).

For simplicity assume Grid is a set of squares sized w by w, and you need to move x squares horizontally and y squares vertically. Then D ends up being:

$D = \sqrt{(wx)^2 + (wy)^2} = w \sqrt{x^2+y^2}$

And W is the long side of a triangle inside your target square (since you might be moving diagonally). This triangle might be flat if you are moving in a straight line.

$W = \frac{w}{\cos{ \arctan{y/x} }} = w \sqrt{1+\Big(\frac{y}{x}\Big)^2}$

So the w's (size of your grid frames) cancel out in the logarithm when D is divided by W, and the travel time ends up being based only on how many squares (not pixels) away your target square is from your current one.

One important thing to note is that this formula does not account for being accustomed to a certain setup, which will certainly improve your performance. That means that since the grid size doesn't matter from a general point of view, the answer to the question "what Grid size gives you the best reaction time?" is simply "the one you're currently using."

Khaldean · 06/28/08, 3:32 PM

From the above image:

Lower Left Corner -- Regrowth
Lower Right Corner -- Rejuvenation
Center Text 2 -- Lifebloom-Total HoTs
Top Center Indicator -- Color changes to indicate the number of Lifeblooms in my current stack

I use GridStatusHots, GridStatusLifebloom, GridSideIndicators and GridIndicatorCornerText to achieve this. The timers are using the information from GridStatusHots with the timers for Rejuvenation and Regrowth slightly modified so that they only show the timers and not the Total HoT count the way the Lifebloom timer does.

CasT · 06/30/08, 5:18 AM

After reading the thread about raidstacking and the issues with DPS stacking. I was thinking about Tranquility. Does anyone use the ability. Or is that just a panic button used only after the shit hit the fan?

Wouldn't it be better to make it a raid wide healing capped to five people like arcane explosion? This would make it more useful in my opinion.

Norfair · 06/30/08, 7:13 AM

Originally Posted by CasT

After reading the thread about raidstacking and the issues with DPS stacking. I was thinking about Tranquility. Does anyone use the ability. Or is that just a panic button used only after the shit hit the fan?

Wouldn't it be better to make it a raid wide healing capped to five people like arcane explosion? This would make it more useful in my opinion.

That depends a bit. Of course it would be more useful if the constraint of "only party members" gets removed, but you will lose a bit of control on the spell, since as it is now you know who it will heal. If it automatically would choose the targets with lowest health, like Chain Heal does, it would be a lot better for sure.

I myself hardly use it. Only at RoS p3 and at M'uru p2 I always use it. Tbh, I wonder how useful it will be when druids do get a "CoH hot spell" like the WotLK talent preview suggests. The only good thing about Tranquility then is that it will give more hps on those targets and it will probably also have a larger range. However, it will still remain a "one time use" only and channeled spell. It would be more interesting imo if they would add something like "gives 10% mana of the amount healed to the target", adding more utility to the druid class and stimulating its use.

malthrin · 06/30/08, 9:10 AM

I use it occasionally. It's a great way to round up adds on Felmyst air phases, and it can help raid healers catch up after a bad shadow nova on twins. It can also help if your group is dying for whatever reason on Kalecgos, or if you've just been ported downstairs and everyone is in danger of dying to a shadowbolt.

meringue · 06/30/08, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Khaldean

From the above image:

Lower Left Corner -- Regrowth
Lower Right Corner -- Rejuvenation
Center Text 2 -- Lifebloom-Total HoTs
Top Center Indicator -- Color changes to indicate the number of Lifeblooms in my current stack

I use GridStatusHots, GridStatusLifebloom, GridSideIndicators and GridIndicatorCornerText to achieve this. The timers are using the information from GridStatusHots with the timers for Rejuvenation and Regrowth slightly modified so that they only show the timers and not the Total HoT count the way the Lifebloom timer does.

-Khal

How did you modify to get rid of the rejuv/regrowth count? Does it require lua editing?

Lywyn · 06/30/08, 2:14 PM

On the discussion of UI's...

What is everyone's feeling on Xperl VS grid? I currently use Xperl though as I see many here seem to be using grid I have started to wonder if maybe I should switch as well. I've downloaded grid and found I need a "how to set up grid for dummies" guide as I stumble through the many options. Xperl seems easier at the moment so before I get too deep into figuring out grid, which UI is the best choice for a resto druid?

Khaldean · 06/30/08, 2:21 PM

Yes, some lua editing is involved, but nothing complicated.

Open up GridStatusHots.lua in your addons folder and scroll down to the bottom. There are three sections; rgtime, rjtime and lbtime for Regrowth, Rejuvenation and Lifebloom respectively. In each section there is a line similar to the following:

tostring(math.floor(rgtime).."-"..tostring(hcnttxt))

Simply change that line to the following:

tostring(math.floor(rgtime))

Then it will only show a timer rather than a timer-HoTcount. This same process can be applied to the rjtime and lbtime sections as well if so desired. Hopefully that helps.

meringue · 06/30/08, 2:49 PM

That did it! Thanks.

Grid lua's are... intimidating.

To add content to this post, I found that the amount of setup required for xperl, pitbull, and grid were not so different from each other. The starting configuration is the biggest difference. Grid starts out small, boxy and oddly colored which can turn people off initially, but the customization options and huge number of extremely useful modules are worth it in my opinion.

edit: I just had to come back and gush about corner text HOT countdowns a little more; after trying it out in a ZA bear run I'm never going back to colored squares or other timers again. I ended up removing all the HOT counts, preferring my old color coded lifebloom to two numbers in the middle. Big thanks to Khaldean for a great idea.

Maraili · 06/30/08, 2:51 PM

Although I've read this entire thread, in particular the discussions that concerned spell haste, I'm somewhat confused by what Malthrin said back on post #1241, mainly that the proc for [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle] isn't any good and that Tree healers should pick up some other trinket to use. I bring the thing to ZA/BT/MH (I duo heal ZA and we're 3/9 BT, 4/5 MH) and I have found the proc invaluable for helping to deal with raid damage while keeping my hots up on the tank. I believe the proc time is ~10%, but I'm not sure if/what the internal cooldown is, which I guess is what would severely limit its usefulness, at least as far as I can see.

I understand why people don't like the random +Healing procs from the SSO necklace or the Hyjal rep ring, but this, to me, is something completely different. Is it disliked because it can interfere with rotations for rolling hots on multiple people, or is there some other logic that I'm just not seeing?

This is my first post here, so I apologize if I overlooked something, and thank you for taking the time to clear this up.

grutak · 06/30/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Maraili

I understand why people don't like the random +Healing procs from the SSO necklace or the Hyjal rep ring, but this, to me, is something completely different. Is it disliked because it can interfere with rotations for rolling hots on multiple people, or is there some other logic that I'm just not seeing?

While I can't comment on the trinket since I don't have one, I can on the random +heal proc.

The random should have no bearing on how you heal or your rotations. You don't cast LB by how much damage the target is taking, but you cast it every few seconds. I use the aldor SSO neck for the +heal and the regen, but would replace it quick if I got the neck from ZA to drop. You can never count on the proc. Its random. Druid healing is all about consistency, making sure your hots are up all the time, and making sure LB doesn't fall off. I would consider a consistant small haste %(the za neck) worth much more than a random +heal proc.

Norfair · 06/30/08, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by grutak

While I can't comment on the trinket since I don't have one, I can on the random +heal proc.

The random should have no bearing on how you heal or your rotations. You don't cast LB by how much damage the target is taking, but you cast it every few seconds. I use the aldor SSO neck for the +heal and the regen, but would replace it quick if I got the neck from ZA to drop. You can never count on the proc. Its random. Druid healing is all about consistency, making sure your hots are up all the time, and making sure LB doesn't fall off. I would consider a consistant small haste %(the za neck) worth much more than a random +heal proc.

I don't think that is what he meant. He meant that he can understand why temporary +healing effects are "not wanted" because they can screw up refreshing Rejuvenation, but he can NOT understand why the haste-proc on the trinket is unwanted / unuseful.

I never used the Scarab because I always had better alternatives, so I don't know much about the proc rate and how it would 'work'. I can imagine having 20% faster cast at the right time can mean the difference between life or death, whereas 14 +heal would not. However, 6 seconds seems rather short to me, so I can imagine someone saying it "isn't any good" either.

• Arawethion · 06/30/08, 5:19 PM

I've never tried using it, but I imagine it's a somewhat rare case where the Scarab proc would accomplish anything.

Most Druid healing lives in a "1-2-3-4" rhythm that's based on the Lifebloom duration. I tend to constantly count it in my head--Lifebloom tank X on "1", do 3 other things while I mentally tick off "2-3-4." Way back when 2.4 changes were announced, much discussion was made of the possibility of having enough passive haste to extend it to 5--I won't rehash that here.

Brief background on haste in general. Other than allowing a longer cycle, passive haste can help in two ways:
1) Ensuring that minor latency spikes, distractions, or other hesitations of any kind don't cause you to drop your LB stack.
2) Decreasing the actual duration of your 4-cast cycle, which increases the rate of all of your healing except the Lifebloom ticks.

(1) is quite handy. The miscellaneous bits of haste on high-end gear are really imporant, if they give you enough to smooth out hitches in your cycle.
(2) depends entirely on the fight. On M'uru (just an example), I'm Lifeblooming 3 tanks and usually casting Rejuv on the 4th GCD. The 3 Lifebloom stacks are totally unaffacted by haste, but a slightly shortened cycle increases Rejuv uptime (unless you have so much that you're clipping them). End result is that only Rejuv, a small portion of my total healing, is affected by haste.
But on a fight where I'm Lifeblooming one tank and raid healing a lot--especially any fight where I'm casting Regrowth--haste now affects the majority of what I'm doing and improves total healing output much like it does for other healers.

With all that in mind, the Scarab doesn't at all help with (1), really. As far as (2), it seems like it can be useful in many of the same situations where passive haste is useful, and subject to the same limitations.

Notably, unlike other haste buffs (Bloodlust), the Scarab will not allow to extend your cycle to 5 even once, unless it falls at exactly the right time and you react prefectly. A proc as you're counting 2 or 3 won't be enough to delay the next "1" by a full cast.

---------

+healing procs are good, however (I haven't really decided between the SSO neck and ZA neck; have both). The steady nature of our healing means that the buff is unlikely to go to waste when it's up. I'd certainly always prefer an equivalent passive +heal bonus over over a periodic one, but the SSO neck already has nearly the highest +heal in the game, and with the proc it spits out a time-averaged healing bonus of over 100.

It is irritating when it prevents a Rejuv cast. Not that you should be clipping Rejuv that often, but sometimes I'm coming back into place after some kind of interruption, or trying to refresh a Rejuv during a free GCD before doing something else, and I'm annoyed when I can't cast it.

mirarant · 06/30/08, 6:01 PM

Hello, I have a slightly similar Grid problem as an earlier poster. I have Rejuvenation, Regrowth and Lifebloom show only their own duration left on Grid however I would like to add a lifebloom stack counter, that shows only the amount of my own Lifeblooms on the target, to the Lifebloom duration text as well.

I tried fiddling around with the lua files, unfortunately I was not successful. Does anyone have a setup they can share?

Benita · 07/01/08, 4:36 AM

GridStatusLifebloom on a center text indicator shows you the lifebloom duration color coded by stack (meaning the counter changes it color).

chronas · 07/01/08, 10:51 AM

delete

Sheshonk · 07/01/08, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Maraili

Although I've read this entire thread, in particular the discussions that concerned spell haste, I'm somewhat confused by what Malthrin said back on post #1241, mainly that the proc for [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle] isn't any good and that Tree healers should pick up some other trinket to use. I bring the thing to ZA/BT/MH (I duo heal ZA and we're 3/9 BT, 4/5 MH) and I have found the proc invaluable for helping to deal with raid damage while keeping my hots up on the tank. I believe the proc time is ~10%, but I'm not sure if/what the internal cooldown is, which I guess is what would severely limit its usefulness, at least as far as I can see.

I understand why people don't like the random +Healing procs from the SSO necklace or the Hyjal rep ring, but this, to me, is something completely different. Is it disliked because it can interfere with rotations for rolling hots on multiple people, or is there some other logic that I'm just not seeing?

This is my first post here, so I apologize if I overlooked something, and thank you for taking the time to clear this up.

The internal cooldown of scarab is 45s. Source

You allready have your hots running on the tank, haste is not going to make that any better. This proc probably (I haven't used a scarab since HT spam days so please confirm this) allow you to fit in an additional hot into your rotation to spot heal the raid. So, how good is this comparitively to the +18 heal gained from [Essence of the Martyr] or [Battlemaster's Perseverance]? (yes, I'm going to low ball EotM...by a lot)

A single lifebloom or regrowth will give you roughly these numbers assuming 2550 healing. Account for internal cooldown of 45s to get heal per minute...

Lifebloom = 4014 * (60/45) = 5362
Regrowth = 6882 * (60/45) = 9176

vs

Gain of 18 heal on all your spells. Let's assume you have a single tank and are running a rotation of lb*3,rj,lb,rg -> lb*3,lb,lb,rg...

lb*3 = 36
lb = 20
rj = 22
rg = 21

Over a 1min time period you have 10 (60/6) rotations, 5 of each, so you would see the following spell usages...

10*(lb*3) + 30*(lb) + 5*(rj) + 10*(rg)
10*(36) + 30*(20) + 5*(22) + 10*(21)
360 + 600 + 105 + 110 + 210
1385

So scarab comes out pretty far ahead with 4K healing for lifebloom or a massive 8K for regrowth. However, this is the best it will ever get on paper for multiple reasons. For starters, I have ridiculously high amount of +heal, the more heal you have, the bigger bonus you get from haste. Second, I'm lazy with my napkin math and low balled EotM. Third, I'm assuming the trinket procs every chance possible. Fourth, we're just talking about heal throughput here, doesn't mean you can actually make use of the effect. Which brings me to actual gameplay.

There's a chance for this trinket to proc, and that messes things up. Its fairly easy to waste the proc. What if there is no one to heal? What if you didn't notice the proc and clip existing hots? Worse yet, what if you noticed the proc late and lost the triple stack? What if your lagging?

People's issue with the scarab is although it looks great on paper, its not reliable. If you don't get that extra hot in, you could be using a better trinket. That's why [Redeemer's Alchemist Stone] and [Essence of the Martyr]/[Battlemaster's Perseverance] are the prefered trinkets untill you can pick up [Memento of Tyrande].

malthrin · 07/01/08, 11:56 AM

Haste procs are actually worse than that because if you're not careful you'll screw up your Lifebloom stacks. If you refresh your Lifeblooms 1.2 seconds apart under the proc, when it wears off and you're back to 1.5, you will lose every stack after the first one.

• Arentios · 07/01/08, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by malthrin

Haste procs are actually worse than that because if you're not careful you'll screw up your Lifebloom stacks. If you refresh your Lifeblooms 1.2 seconds apart under the proc, when it wears off and you're back to 1.5, you will lose every stack after the first one.

Not that this is an endorsement for using temporary haste, but you can actually save every stack except the second by changing the order of your rotation.

Bloom 1, Bloom 2, Bloom 3, Rejuv/Regrowth changes to Bloom 1, Bloom 3, Bloom 2, Rejuv/Regrowth (or adding another stack to Bloom 2). This maintains Blooms 1 and 3 while Bloom 2 expires.

Bloom 1, Bloom 2, Bloom 3, Bloom 4 changes to Bloom 1, Bloom 3, Bloom 4, Bloom 2. This maintains Blooms 1, 3, and 4 while Bloom 2 expires. Depending on lag and amount of haste, you might only be able to save 2, but with my paper napkin math the exact threshold in percentage terms escapes me.