Edit, May 18th 2008:
As people might see, I have not given this thread much attention the past months. This is because I am very busy at the moment, IRL and ingame, as my guild just now reached Illidan and me being forum admin etc. Much to do.
Many of you keep correcting and suggesting to add items to this list, and for that, many are grateful.
However, I will not add more PvP rewards to this list. PvP gear today is rather fast and easy to obtain, and is perfectly viable for heroic tanking and early raid instances. May I also add, 4x T4 is excellent for later raid tanking, and T5 is not really that much better if you look at it.
I will take some time soon to add the last of items to the list. Thank you all for improving it.
Allright. After guiding many druid friends and randoms I have decided to make a Feral Druid Preraid Tank Gear guide. This is for guidance and future references. Note that using Atlas Loot, Leatherworking crafts, checking Heroic Badge rewards and using common human intellect will equal the information yielded here.
During the discussions and revelations in this thread I have learned that Survivability is better than Mitigation, to a certain extent; do not drop 2k mitigation for 1k survivability.
For those who do not already know; assuming you have the talent 'Survival of the Fittest' you will need 65 defense to be crit immune. That's a total of 415 Defense.
You can check to see if you are crit immune by typing /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(2.6-(GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*.04+GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_CRIT_TAKEN_MELEE) ),1,0.5,0)
...into the chat; if the number is 0 or has a negative number then you are uncritable, but if it has a positive value you still need more. The script will calculate with both Defense and Resilience. Note that one will require less Resilience than Defense to become crit immune. The numbers are explained below.
For more information visit Defense - WoWWiki, which gives good insight to how all this works.
Addons
RatingBuster (link Jan3rd08) - Displays what converted stats and ratings on item tooltips. For example how much crit and dodge 12 agility is.
TankPoints (link Jan3rd08) - Gives an overview of tank 'points' and mitigation. I haven't really tested this much, but my classleader uses it so I guess we can just knock ourselves out.
Omen Threatmeter - creates seperate threat tables differing by mob names. Omen displays KTM threat, but KTM cannot display threat of players using Omen. Using threat meters help you realize the point when you can stop generating threat and rather build rage for the next target.
[Staff of Beasts] (Quest) for more treat generation and [Braxxis' Staff of Slumber] (Trash/AH) for hard hitting fights
I'd recommend enchanting Staff of Beasts with Savagery (70 AP) and Braxxis' Staff of Slumber wih 35 Agility, because savagery is cheaper and you'd rather use it for questing. However 35 agility is the best enchant for a Feral Druid weapon. [Staff of Natural Fury] is also a good tanking weapon before Earthwarden, but it is an expensive weapon and most suited for PvP, so it's not worth spending 1.000g on just for tanking.
Enchant Boots - Boar's Speed (9 stamina and 8% run speed increase)
Enchant Boots - Fortitude (12 stamina)
Weapon
Enchant 2H Weapon - Major Agility (35 agility)
This is a bit off-topic, but people keep giving obscure and direct hints to that they want a list of raid gear as well. Therefore I am putting together a list of raid gear, which hopefully will help people understand how crucial Feral Druid preraid tank gear is, since we have so few upgrades. Items which there is no upgrade for in TBC will be followed by *
Back:
Thoriumweave Cloak is great, until you get it to drop for you the Cloak of the Valiant Defender from a Netherstorm quest is a suitable stop gap.
Boots:
Until you get Barkchip Boots the Heavy Clefthoof Boots can be used.
Rings:
Do the Kara attunement and get some rep for the Violet Signet, 1 run maybe enough. Until you have enough rep for that or enough heroic badges for the Ring of Unyielding Force get a Delicate Eternium Ring from a JC and a Wind Trader's Band from a Netherstorm quest.
Hands:
Until the Wastewalker Gloves drop for you, get the Verdant Gloves from a quest in Shadowmoon Valley.
Neck:
Until you have enough badges for Necklace of the Juggernaught, get the Mark of the Ravenguard from an Auchindoun quest.
Shoulders:
Until the Shoulderpads of Assassination drop for you get the Mok'Nathal Champion's Shoulderguards from a quest in Blade's Edge Mountains.
Weapon:
Until youi have enough rep to buy the Earthwarden, get the Staff of Beasts from a quest in Nagrand. Then start running heroic Botanica for Feral Staff of Lashing.
Belt:
Until you get the Tree-Mender's Belt to drop for you, get Manimal's Cinch from a quest in Shadowmoon Valley.
Wrist:
Until you get the Veteran's Dragonhide Bracers get Umberhowl's Collar from a quest in Shadowmoon Valley.
You could also add [Manimal's Cinch], for people who are unlucky with drops it's a decent alternative.
And finally, everyone should pick up [Braxxis' Staff of Slumber] untill they can get exalted CE, it's usually priced at the price of the LPS it DE's to on Stormscale...
Looking at this list now, it really is absurdly easy to reach an acceptable level of gear as a tanking druid with a bit of money on his hands.
Both [Iron Band of the Unbreakable] (Durnholde, 2nd boss) and [Yor's Revenge] (Prequest Link) are great Preraid Tank rings, however if you already have the rest of the gear on the list it's not worth bothering too much, since when you become Honored with The Violet Eye, which is attained really fast by doing first state Karazhan, then you have Violet Signet ring, which you will keep using for the rest of TBC, and upgrading via reputation gain.
Moving on to Trinkets. Preraid tank trinkets are just a plus, not mandatory in my opinion. However, here is a list of some of the best preraid and inraid tank trinkets for Druids:
Adamantine Figurine drops from 2nd boss in Shadow Labyrinth.
Badge of Tenacity is converted from [Depleted Badge] which is a random drop from specific mobs in Ogri'La.
Darkmoon card: Vengeance is crafted from the Furies Deck, which consists of eight pieces that have a low drop rate from instance bosses all around.
Violet Badge is a reward from one of the Karazhan chain quests, and very useful in TK: The Eye and general boss tanking due to the high stamina.
Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch drops from 2nd boss, Moroes, in Karazhan. Yields about 20% more dodge from the Use: effect. 2min cooldown. Love it.
I would probably swap the Stylin with [Cowl of Beastly Rage]. It depends on how your stats are sitting but the sockets make it a flexible item in that you can add 20 agility and +3% crit dmg, 30 stamina + stun resist or mix them to get your preffered level. If you go with +12 stam gem and +12 agi meta that comes out at 38 agi, 39 stamina. I know some people may be loathe to drop the dodge from agility but socketing it for another 30 stamina gives a great armour/stam piece. My philosophy pre raid was always to get up armour and stamina to a level where I could take predicatble damage intake and absorb spikes before starting to mix in agility for more dodge. So my preference would be the cowl with 12 stam and 18 stam gem/meta on it for 57 stam.
For belt [Waistguard of the Great Beast] could be considered. You'd lose armour but a couple of stam gems in gives it a nice 54 stamina and the hit is excellent. Also consider [Vindicator's Dragonhide Belt]. I'd probably advise against this for a starting druid as you lose a lot of armour and you dont start struggling for def/resi till later on when you're replacing Clefthoof with tier gear which should be the time to start looking at the PVP resilience gear.
[Band of the Swift Paw] and [Footwraps of Wild Encroachment] the same applies, all great items if you are a starting druid and have a nice chunk of defence provided by clefthoof but as you start gearing up, I've found at least to have a preferrence for the PvP S3 gear next patch for most of my defence/resilience and then replace other items with raid gear.
Editx4: Typing like a drunkard this morning.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
[Mok'Nathal Clan Ring] is actually very good considering it drops in non-heroic ramparts. [Resolute Cape] will last you a long time and gives over 0.5% of anti-crit.
Just by the way, I suspect that reposting a shit-heaped thread is not necessarily the way to go, maybe you could copy the info into a PM to Dukes, or post it in the other thread and ask him to add this info into his sticky at the start of the mega-thread?
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
The season 1 set should be relatively simple to farm in 2.3 and should be one of the first ports of call in gearing up for raid worthy gear. Good AC and the resilience will make you crit immune in no time.
Adamantine Figurine drops from 2nd boss in Shadow Labyrinth.
Badge of Tenacity is converted from [Depleted Badge] which is a random drop from specific mobs in Ogri'La.
Darkmoon card: Vengeance is crafted from the Furies Deck, which consists of eight pieces that have a low drop rate from instance bosses all around.
I think it's worth noting that you'll have much better luck working on the Shartuul event than trying to get a badge as random drop. The Shartuul event requires honored Ogri'la, at which point you can complete it as often as you get runes (at the very least every 5 days, at most once a day). If you learn the fight, it's fairly simple, and it's a guaranteed depleted drop at the end.
I would actually hazard to say that, right now, the [Thoriumweave Cloak] is simply the best cloak in the game for Feral Druids. While the [Gilded Thorium Cloak] is tempting, I don't ever forsee having trouble hitting the crit-immune cap with druids, making the added defense a little less desirable than the extra stamina found on the [Thoriumweave Cloak]
Those two rings, from what I've observed, are indeed the best Feral tanking rings currently in the game. It's kinda cool that you can get both so early.
I actually would prefer the [Heavy Clefthoof Boots] over the [Barkchip Boots], but I'm more of one to stack on as much Stamina as I can while still maintaining a decent dodge rating. My theory is that, yes, dodge is a wonderful form of mitigation, especially being our ONLY form of mitigation, but that dodge is also not a guaranteed form of mitigation. Having a larger heath pool and less dodge may put a slightly larger strain on the healers, but it helps to ensure that a few lucky "rolls" from the enemy won't result in you being face down on the cool, hard floor (salty floor if you're in SSC >.>. And since we can't block or parry like a warrior can, we need to be equipped to take hits more often, simply because it will happen.
Trinket-wise, both the [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance] and the [Darkmoon Card: Madness] are very nice. Madness is my personal choice, since more often than not I don't need the extra threat generation in a raid, but I can see Vengeance certainly having its uses.
Belt-wise, I'd say either the [Veteran's Leather Belt] (More mitigation, less threat) or the [Veteran's Dragonhide Belt] (More threat, less mitigation) would be better than the [Tree-Mender's Belt]. Tree-Mender's is quite an upgrade over [Manimal's Cinch], but it suffers from the probem that seems to befall our Tier 4 and 5 gear: a lack of emphasis on the stats that are needed for both tanking and DPSing: Stamina and Agility.
Early on, the higher armor items might be better than the lower valued armor items, simply because you won't be able to make up for what you lose. Once you get started with the Tier gear, though, other forms of mitigation will become far more useful. You CAN hit the armor cap without even completing Serpentshrine or Tempest Keep...but it's rather pointless to do so, simply because all the high armor gear seems to be lacking Stamina (or even gem slots with which to fill with Stamina gems).
This is what I've gone for pre-raid (yes, there's the Kara ring but took half a raid as tree and another full Kara as MT to get there, may have stolen some instance ID from my main to get qs done/turned in. But this was plenty good to for Kara and all heroics, before they were nerfed (actually finished TK attunement up to Mag on druid before my main and found heroic SH to be one of the best training grounds for tanking).
I would probably swap the Stylin with [Cowl of Beastly Rage]. It depends on how your stats are sitting but the sockets make it a flexible item in that you can add 20 agility and +3% crit dmg, 30 stamina + stun resist or mix them to get your preffered level. If you go with +12 stam gem and +12 agi meta that comes out at 38 agi, 39 stamina. I know some people may be loathe to drop the dodge from agility but socketing it for another 30 stamina gives a great armour/stam piece. My philosophy pre raid was always to get up armour and stamina to a level where I could take predicatble damage intake and absorb spikes before starting to mix in agility for more dodge. So my preference would be the cowl with 12 stam and 18 stam gem/meta on it for 57 stam.
For belt [Waistguard of the Great Beast] could be considered. You'd lose armour but a couple of stam gems in gives it a nice 54 stamina and the hit is excellent. Also consider [Vindicator's Dragonhide Belt]. I'd probably advise against this for a starting druid as you lose a lot of armour and you dont start struggling for def/resi till later on when you're replacing Clefthoof with tier gear which should be the time to start looking at the PVP resilience gear.
[Band of the Swift Paw] and [Footwraps of Wild Encroachment] the same applies, all great items if you are a starting druid and have a nice chunk of defence provided by clefthoof but as you start gearing up, I've found at least to have a preferrence for the PvP S3 gear next patch for most of my defence/resilience and then replace other items with raid gear.
Editx4: Typing like a drunkard this morning.
Originally Posted by Death Kitty
I would actually hazard to say that, right now, the [Thoriumweave Cloak] is simply the best cloak in the game for Feral Druids. While the [Gilded Thorium Cloak] is tempting, I don't ever forsee having trouble hitting the crit-immune cap with druids, making the added defense a little less desirable than the extra stamina found on the [Thoriumweave Cloak]
Those two rings, from what I've observed, are indeed the best Feral tanking rings currently in the game. It's kinda cool that you can get both so early.
I actually would prefer the [Heavy Clefthoof Boots] over the [Barkchip Boots], but I'm more of one to stack on as much Stamina as I can while still maintaining a decent dodge rating. My theory is that, yes, dodge is a wonderful form of mitigation, especially being our ONLY form of mitigation, but that dodge is also not a guaranteed form of mitigation. Having a larger heath pool and less dodge may put a slightly larger strain on the healers, but it helps to ensure that a few lucky "rolls" from the enemy won't result in you being face down on the cool, hard floor (salty floor if you're in SSC >.>. And since we can't block or parry like a warrior can, we need to be equipped to take hits more often, simply because it will happen.
Trinket-wise, both the [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance] and the [Darkmoon Card: Madness] are very nice. Madness is my personal choice, since more often than not I don't need the extra threat generation in a raid, but I can see Vengeance certainly having its uses.
Belt-wise, I'd say either the [Veteran's Leather Belt] (More mitigation, less threat) or the [Veteran's Dragonhide Belt] (More threat, less mitigation) would be better than the [Tree-Mender's Belt]. Tree-Mender's is quite an upgrade over [Manimal's Cinch], but it suffers from the probem that seems to befall our Tier 4 and 5 gear: a lack of emphasis on the stats that are needed for both tanking and DPSing: Stamina and Agility.
Early on, the higher armor items might be better than the lower valued armor items, simply because you won't be able to make up for what you lose. Once you get started with the Tier gear, though, other forms of mitigation will become far more useful. You CAN hit the armor cap without even completing Serpentshrine or Tempest Keep...but it's rather pointless to do so, simply because all the high armor gear seems to be lacking Stamina (or even gem slots with which to fill with Stamina gems).
About Mitigation versus Threatbuilding it is rather clear what Druids need. Threatbuilding is not a problem for Druids, and the difference between Druids and Warriors in early raid gear makes Druids very desierable in some encounters.
As for Stamina/Armor versus Avoidance, a Tank in general should always favour avoidance as it is 100% mitigation. There's a solid difference between a 40% dodge tank and a 20% dodge tank; Where the 40% will need heals every now and then, and the 20% will need heals all the time. The 20% dodge tank will simply be a manaburner, and I'd at least prefer playing with people who knew how to heal a 40% dodge tank instead of lesser skilled people who need to hold your hand just to press Heal at the right moment.
Edit: Further down in the discussion I am convinced that Avoidance is less favorable, and that reliable stats such as Stamina and Armor are more important
Personally, I still use the [Mantle of Shadowy Embrace], but it wasn't exactly easy for me to get since two rogues beat me to it. 'Twas a demoralizing period for me, as even my irl friend ninjaed them from me in a guild run for me to get them. Me and Heroic Blood Furnace... I eventually started playing on my main again and ran Heroic Blood Furnace five days in a row, just to get it. I made a bloody walkthrough and I learned the best setup and even trash tactics. In addition to the imba tanking and dps stats, the graphics own every other Druid shoulder I've ever seen, including Tier.
Blood Furnace is one of the more challenging Heroics, but the moment you win these shoulders, you realize it was totally worth it.
[Shoulderpads of Assassination] can easily be attained if you go a stealth run. One Rogue and two Druids can stealth to the last boss with no problems, but are dependent on the Rogue's Distraction.
About Mitigation versus Threatbuilding it is rather clear what Druids need. Threatbuilding is not a problem for Druids, and the difference between Druids and Warriors in early raid gear makes Druids very desierable in some encounters.
As for Stamina/Armor versus Avoidance, a Tank in general should always favour avoidance as it is 100% mitigation. There's a solid difference between a 40% dodge tank and a 20% dodge tank; Where the 40% will need heals every now and then, and the 20% will need heals all the time. The 20% dodge tank will simply be a manaburner, and I'd at least prefer playing with people who knew how to heal a 40% dodge tank instead of lesser skilled people who need to hold your hand just to press Heal at the right moment.
Avoidance can be difficult in rage sensitive situations. Yes if the difference would be between 20% vs 40% it would be favorable to go for the 40% avoidance tank. Usually the difference between high stamina tank and avoidance tank is about 3-5% and 1k-1500k HP with this narrow situation the 1k HP is more attractive than 3% Dodge. Dodge is a chance of 100% mitigation and not 100% mitigation. I never trust on a chance because it is a chance. It is like betting against all odds in some places.
Avoidance can be difficult in rage sensitive situations. Yes if the difference would be between 20% vs 40% it would be favorable to go for the 40% avoidance tank. Usually the difference between high stamina tank and avoidance tank is about 3-5% and 1k-1500k HP with this narrow situation the 1k HP is more attractive than 3% Dodge. Dodge is a chance of 100% mitigation and not 100% mitigation. I never trust on a chance because it is a chance. It is like betting against all odds in some places.
Thank you, I am reading up on the thread right now.
Your arguments are agreeable, but statisticly Avoidance mitigates has a higher potential of mitigating physical damage than Armor has. More mitigation saves mana for the healers, as they will need to heal less overall. Also, Armor increases as higher level of tanking gear is attained, thus vouching for Avoidance will gain more mitigation than vouching for Armor items will.
Edit:
I almost forgot differing lower- and higher levels of tanking stats. Each point of armor lessens the value of mitigation for the next one. Thus, a Tank with f.ex 10k Armor will favor more armor to a certain extent. Because at lower levels armor will yield much more mitigation than pure Avoidance will. Thus, reaching a more moderate amount of Armor, Avoidance will be the better choice from that point. I'm not entirely sure about the breaking point for this, but it is rarely relevant.
High Health is also an important matter. Therefore it is important to do ones best to balance the stats as one is about to attain higher stats of certain kinds. A fine rule for Druids is to go for Avoidance (not regarding Armor here) as long as one can keep having 14-15k+ health in Bear Form, preferably unbuffed. This is for keeping the advantages of a Druid Tank up and running; as Warriors have abilities and a better overall of Avoidance to satisfy a healer, while a Druid Tank overall has more mitigation of damage and in return still a big enough window (health) for the healer not to die of a heart attack during hard damage-taking encounters.
When a Tank has about 20-25k Armor, then Armor is not really considered when upgrading tank gear.
While your list is good and comprehensive, I think it would do well to include a "budget" alternative for some of the more bleeding-edge slots, especially since amassing 50 Badges for your neck and ring is quite a feat, and people need to know what to shoot for in the meantime.
While your list is good and comprehensive, I think it would do well to include a "budget" alternative for some of the more bleeding-edge slots, especially since amassing 50 Badges for your neck and ring is quite a feat, and people need to know what to shoot for in the meantime.
Yes, Pinsesa, I have been thinking about that for a while, and I am soon going to add a table containing Pre-Heroic gear and such. Thank you for bringing tips, also=)
When a Tank has about 20-25k Armor, then Armor is not really considered when upgrading tank gear.
I must disagree here. I've been thinking about it a lot, and my conclusion is that until you reach armor cap against lvl 73 bosses (around 35800 armor), then armor is the best upgrade you can get.
Armor does not have diminishing returns. See e.g. The Druid Wiki » Druid_Game_Mechanics. Adding 1000 armor benefits you the same whether you currently have 10000 or 30000 armor.
I created simulation where i had fixed item budget. I set armor, and the program automatically computed agility to fill the budget. Then i run a simulated fight (based on attack table from wowwiki) where the druid was attacked by typical raid boss (so, hits about 5k to bear tank every 2 seconds) with different values of armor and dodge.
The result was simple. The overall received dmg was quite even, but what differed a lot was spike damage. I computed spike damages as maximum dmg received in 10 second intervals. The spikes we're (naturally) smaller when the armor got close to the cap. Once the armor was over the cap, spike damage remained the same while overall dmg taken begun to increase (naturally again - wasted item budget).
Even when i considered priest & shaman buffs for 50% of the fight (25% extra armor), it was not worth to drop armor and get extra dodge to benefit from those. Due to spikes.
Remember that armor is what protects you from crushings. I'd say that 25000 armor is minimum where you can safely tank prince in karazhan during phase 2 (with reasonable HP ofc, about 18000+).
That being said, dodge comes along once you start replacing clefthoof. T4 is great tanking set with loads of agility on it.
11/02/07, 4:52 AM
. And since we can't block or parry like a warrior can, we need to be equipped to take hits more often, simply because it will happen.
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