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12/14/07, 3:54 AM
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#51
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Aggramar (EU)
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Good work
I would suggest adding Necklace of the Deep as an alternate to Necklace of the Juggernaut, gemmed with two Solid Stars of Elune it is a much better tanking item when you have enough defense and it can be easily obtained by buying it off a JC.
As you have mentioned the PVP bracers, an alternative on the shoulders that are well worth it imo are the Gladiator's Dragonhide Spaulders that can be purchased with some BG honor.
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12/14/07, 4:37 AM
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#52
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Banned
Tauren Druid
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by Aadar
Good work
I would suggest adding Necklace of the Deep as an alternate to Necklace of the Juggernaut, gemmed with two Solid Stars of Elune it is a much better tanking item when you have enough defense and it can be easily obtained by buying it off a JC.
As you have mentioned the PVP bracers, an alternative on the shoulders that are well worth it imo are the Gladiator's Dragonhide Spaulders that can be purchased with some BG honor.
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Thank you. I will add those two to the list.
However, that neck is only an option in very special gear setups and only for useful for stacking health.
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12/14/07, 6:07 AM
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#53
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Sylvanas (EU)
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I still miss [Verdant Gloves] in the list. They are fine for Karazhan tanking and easily obtainable.
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12/14/07, 9:49 AM
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#54
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Immolated Cat
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If you're MT, stacking health is the name of the game. If you're pre-raid, you still probably have one or two arena pieces to get your crit immunity, so I don't consider it "special". Or PVP bracers, belt, or boots. Plus heavy defense already off Clefthoof items. It's very, very easy to go past crit cap, and once you do that the Juggernaut-to-Deep switch becomes VERY viable.
I'm in T6 content and only use Juggernaut when I'm maxing my dodge; typically I use Deep + 2x12 stam.
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12/14/07, 10:02 AM
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#55
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Banned
Tauren Druid
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by Inaiwae
I still miss [Verdant Gloves] in the list. They are fine for Karazhan tanking and easily obtainable.
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Oh, I can add those gloves to the list over the weekend (leaving work now), but note that using them above ex. [Wastewalker Gloves] results in a big loss of Stam/Agi stats for just Armor.
Originally Posted by Allev
If you're MT, stacking health is the name of the game. If you're pre-raid, you still probably have one or two arena pieces to get your crit immunity, so I don't consider it "special". Or PVP bracers, belt, or boots. Plus heavy defense already off Clefthoof items. It's very, very easy to go past crit cap, and once you do that the Juggernaut-to-Deep switch becomes VERY viable.
I'm in T6 content and only use Juggernaut when I'm maxing my dodge; typically I use Deep + 2x12 stam.
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About PvP gear... PvP gear has a lot of survivability, but not mitigation. Tanking with only PvP gear would result in a dull dodge/miss chance. Though it's a fact that PvP gear is extremely viable when it comes to replace some certain gear slots. And Season 2-3 does pretty much replace some PvE gear. Then again, if you take a look at Blizzard's plan for Feral Druids: ex. Season 3 gear will have more survivability, but T6 will have better threat generation. However, that's more end game. Druids in early raiding content need to look out to keep their dodge up.
bye now /run
Edit: S3 may not have more survivability than T6 due to less Armor
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12/17/07, 7:41 AM
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#56
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Shakkha
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Does anybody know if this list is still being updated? I know it's not currently up to date as of 2.3, but I do understand something like that does take time.
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12/17/07, 5:08 PM
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#57
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Banned
Tauren Druid
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by Sodee
Does anybody know if this list is still being updated? I know it's not currently up to date as of 2.3, but I do understand something like that does take time.
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It's about fully updated. I'm gonna check once more on the new Badge rewards though. But eh, this is pretty much what you need. =)
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12/17/07, 5:37 PM
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#58
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King Hippo
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Originally Posted by Allev
only use Juggernaut when I'm maxing my dodge
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If you are maximising dodge/avoidance, Necklace of the Deep with 2 x 8 Agility gems (if you don't have access to the 10 Agility ones) is better than Juggernaut.
Necklace of the Juggernaut
19 Agility = 1.29% dodge (1.36% with kings)
22 defense rating = 9 skill = 0.36% dodge & miss
Total Avoidance: 2.01% (2.08% with kings)
Necklace of the Deep
37 Agility = 2.52% dodge (2.72% with kings)
I assume you don't need the crit reduction from Juggernaut (since you said you use Deep + 2 x 12 Stamina normally), unless you're juggling other stuff around to get more avoidance, and losing some crit reduction which makes using Juggernaut necessary for you. But in a vaccuum, Deep has more avoidance than Juggernaut.
Btw, I'd strongly suggest [Brooch of Deftness] to you instead of Deep + 2 x 12 Stamina, it has 4 more Stamina, and I'd wager the Expertise and Hit Rating is better for threat than the 21 Agility you'd be losing. So you're trading 1.43% dodge for 4 Stamina and 3.89% less avoidance on your attacks, well worth it in my opinion.
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12/18/07, 7:37 AM
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#59
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Edenfall
It's about fully updated. I'm gonna check once more on the new Badge rewards though. But eh, this is pretty much what you need. =)
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Yep, it is a great list... I've been using it a lot recently. However, it doesn't include ZA, the new badge gear or the Season 3 gear. I was just wondering if whoever had compiled the list was still working on it, or if it was going to stay in its current state. Regardless, whoever made it, thank you. =)
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12/18/07, 10:17 AM
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#60
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Banned
Tauren Druid
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by Sodee
Yep, it is a great list... I've been using it a lot recently. However, it doesn't include ZA, the new badge gear or the Season 3 gear. I was just wondering if whoever had compiled the list was still working on it, or if it was going to stay in its current state. Regardless, whoever made it, thank you. =)
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I made the list, and updating it whenever I take my time. You're right, I haven't added Zul'Aman gear, basicly because this thread is about preraid gear, and ZA is a raid instance
However, I could also make a raid gear list. Feral Druid itemization in TBC is rather dull and simple. I'll have a look at it later.
Last edited by Edenfall : 12/18/07 at 11:03 AM.
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01/04/08, 4:04 AM
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#61
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Banned
Tauren Druid
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by Allev
While yes, that's the ideal pre-raid setup, I think it's a waste of time to acquire many of those pieces before you enter the raidgame. I don't think you'd farm 50 badges for the ring and neck, for instance, before setting foot in Karazahn. I don't think you'd farm 50 badges before downing Maulgar in a guild, either.
So the setup isn't realistic-- you'd at least have the Kara rep ring in any reasonable character timeline that eventually involves the gear you listed and raiding (given that it's "pre-raid", I assume the goal is to gear up to raid).
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Actually, that gear setup is 95% of what I started off with, except I had tanked Attumen and Morogrim for another guild a couple times, so I had the Violet Signet.
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01/04/08, 4:55 AM
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#62
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Don Flamenco
No account
Human Mage
No WoW Account
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I would include the cloak from Karazhan(illhoof) into your list as well the raid list.
I am thinking the new arena gear via honor will be a nice addition to this list. They often have resilience which makes you crit immune much earlier and improved armor. It is also predictable to get unlike drops off instances which require the boss to actually drop it.
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01/04/08, 6:29 AM
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#63
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Banned
Tauren Druid
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by xiaoxin21
I would include the cloak from Karazhan(illhoof) into your list as well the raid list.
I am thinking the new arena gear via honor will be a nice addition to this list. They often have resilience which makes you crit immune much earlier and improved armor. It is also predictable to get unlike drops off instances which require the boss to actually drop it.
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Yes, thanks for reminding me on the cloak.
About PvP rewards, since Season 1 gear now is available for Honor, I will add the ones I find relevant.
However, I would like to advice Druids that Resilience is only an in-case-of-shit solution, and that Defense Rating is favorable due to the Dodge and Miss gained.
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01/04/08, 7:14 AM
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#64
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Warrior
Runetotem (EU)
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You should now update any mentions of veterans gear to now be vindicators since thats all that can be bought by people for honor now.
Also, trying to warn people away from the use of resilience in your last post seems somewhat excessive, on the whole defense is better for a tank, but some use of resilience is a completely valid option that can allow more flexibility in gear rather the complete last resort you label it as.
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01/04/08, 7:52 AM
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#65
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Banned
Tauren Druid
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by Crowl
You should now update any mentions of veterans gear to now be vindicators since thats all that can be bought by people for honor now.
Also, trying to warn people away from the use of resilience in your last post seems somewhat excessive, on the whole defense is better for a tank, but some use of resilience is a completely valid option that can allow more flexibility in gear rather the complete last resort you label it as.
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I guess what I was implying to was - don't stack resilience unless you need it
And yeah, I'll fix those veteran items. Thanks=)
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01/04/08, 8:31 AM
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#66
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Nathrezim
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Originally Posted by Edenfall
However, I would like to advice Druids that Resilience is only an in-case-of-shit solution, and that Defense Rating is favorable due to the Dodge and Miss gained.
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Originally Posted by Crowl
Also, trying to warn people away from the use of resilience in your last post seems somewhat excessive, on the whole defense is better for a tank, but some use of resilience is a completely valid option that can allow more flexibility in gear rather the complete last resort you label it as.
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Originally Posted by Edenfall
I guess what I was implying to was - don't stack resilience unless you need it
And yeah, I'll fix those veteran items. Thanks=)
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I'm a little confused by this, but people seem to agree so I was wondering if someone could point out the error in my math. Numbers may be a bit off here but I think the jist of it goes (forgive the different approach to 2.6% for resilience vs defense, going off the formulas on wowwiki):
Uncrittable via Defense:
2.6%/0.04% = 65 defense
65 defense x 2.37 defense rating/defense ~154 defense rating
Dodge Gained from Defense:
2.6%
Uncrittable via Resilience:
For 1% reduction: 2050/(262-3*level) = 2050/(262-3x70) = 39.42 resilience
So for 2.6%: 39.42x2.6 ~ 103 resilience
Since, from an itemization perspective, 1 resilience = 1 defense, consider:
154 defense rating = 103 resilience rating + 51 itemization points (assuming equal ilevel choice of gear)
51 agility x 0.0691% dodge/agility = 3.52% dodge
So given two items of equal item level, wouldn't it be preferable to go with resilience over defense since it appears to me you could get more dodge that route (and also some damage reduction vs. dots)? I understand, properly itemized gear with resilience can be difficult to come by. But the above warnings seem to actually say don't take resilience unless you have to, when as far as long as the remaining item points on your gear are properly distributed.
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01/04/08, 8:55 AM
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#67
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Driving Instructor
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Defense also increases chance to be missed.
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01/04/08, 8:57 AM
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#68
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Nathrezim
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Originally Posted by Zeln
Defense also increases chance to be missed.
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Wow...can't believe I missed that. Although it does seem counter-intuitive since I always interpreted a miss as being the fault of the attacker. Thanks! Are chance to be missed and dodge additive? Or are they calculated on sequential rolls then (i.e. first roll determines if it's a miss, second roll for non-miss determines if it's a dodge)?
(Edit: Can't figure out how to delete this post though I figure it'd be better as a PM. Sorry it's a bit off-top.)
Last edited by Kalaghan : 01/04/08 at 9:11 AM.
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01/04/08, 9:14 AM
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#69
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Banned
Tauren Druid
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by Kalaghan
Since, from an itemization perspective, 1 resilience = 1 defense, consider:
154 defense rating = 103 resilience rating + 51 itemization points (assuming equal ilevel choice of gear)
51 agility x 0.0691% dodge/agility = 3.52% dodge
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I'm very hungry right now, and thus slow minded, but are you calculating that 1 resilience rating =/= 1 resilience?
Your math results are correct, but ...bah, someone call Dukes. I'm leaving work now.
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01/04/08, 9:27 AM
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#70
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Driving Instructor
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Originally Posted by Edenfall
I'm very hungry right now, and thus slow minded, but are you calculating that 1 resilience rating =/= 1 resilience?
Your math results are correct, but ...bah, someone call Dukes. I'm leaving work now.
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No, he means when the itemizers are adding stuff to an item it costs the same for it to be defense rating or resilience rating.
In other words, there's a +8 defense rating and a +8 resilience rating yellow gem because they "cost" the same.
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01/04/08, 9:56 AM
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#71
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Immolated Cat
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Pre-raid, your first goal is to get crit-immune as quickly as possible. It doesn't really matter as to the "how", just so long as it gets done.
For the most part, you'll never have a straight-up choice between resilience and defense on any piece of gear, only gems. And with gear, it's usually pretty clear whether an item is an upgrade before even taking resilience/defense into account.
For gems, which should make up a very very small part of your crit immunity strategy, use defense if you want higher avoidance and use resilience if you want to stack more stam (because you'll get to your stamina threshold quicker).
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01/04/08, 10:24 AM
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#72
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Allev
For gems, which should make up a very very small part of your crit immunity strategy, use defense if you want higher avoidance and use resilience if you want to stack more stam (because you'll get to your stamina threshold quicker).
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This makes no sense. If you need to gem for crit immunity, you should gem resilience because it gets you crit immune faster. If not (and hopefully this is the case), then you gem agility for avoidance and stamina for mitigation. I don't believe defense gems belong on druid gear period.
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01/04/08, 11:14 AM
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#73
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Nathrezim
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Originally Posted by BOHIC
This makes no sense. If you need to gem for crit immunity, you should gem resilience because it gets you crit immune faster. If not (and hopefully this is the case), then you gem agility for avoidance and stamina for mitigation. I don't believe defense gems belong on druid gear period.
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I'd say they do. As has been noted (now that I stand corrected), you can get more avoidance by going straight defense rather than a mix of resilience and agility. So if your gemming priorities are:
1) Become crit immune
2) Gear for Avoidance
Then it makes sense to go with +defense gems. If you were to use a mix of resilience and agility gems you would actually get less total avoidance than by using straight defense gems.
defense: (resilience+agil) results in a ratio of (2.6%dodge+2.6% to be missed): 3.52% dodge - hence more avoidance from defense.
Last edited by Kalaghan : 01/04/08 at 11:15 AM.
Reason: To remove an accidental emoticon
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01/04/08, 11:33 AM
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#74
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Driving Instructor
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If its going to take 2 gem slots to be uncrittable if you use Defense Rating Gems, but only 1 if you utilize Resilience Gems, then you can put an 8 agi gem in that second slot and gain more avoidance than if you used two Defense Rating gems.
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01/04/08, 11:48 AM
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#75
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Nathrezim
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Originally Posted by Zeln
If its going to take 2 gem slots to be uncrittable if you use Defense Rating Gems, but only 1 if you utilize Resilience Gems, then you can put an 8 agi gem in that second slot and gain more avoidance than if you used two Defense Rating gems.
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Well now you're talking about a situation with wasted itemization. If 8 resilience is enough, then 12 defense is enough. So look at 1 8 defense gem and 1 4 agil/5 def gem (Glistening Fire Opal...there's no 4/4 gem that I know of, but the point is you'd never need more than 1 of these because if you needed 2 then you'd just equip 1 defense gem and 1 agil gem in their places).
One option gives you:
8 res to uncrittable plus 8 agility = 0.55% dodge
The other option gives you:
13 defense to uncrittable plus 13/2.4 x (0.04dodge + 0.04miss) = .43% avoidance
plus 4 agility = 0.28% dodge
total = 0.71% avoidance
So you're still better off with defense over resilience. Granted, you have to go to the trouble of getting a defense+agil gem, but for every situation where resilience works out cleanly (i.e. no waste with +8res gems, but wasted crit reduction with +8defense), there's another situation where defense works out cleanly and resilience does not. Hence, it's only fair that you consider situations with no wasted crit reduction.
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