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-   -   [Rogue] Backstab damage calculation (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17828-rogue_backstab_damage_calculation/)

 Karmon 11/04/07 9:34 AM

[Rogue] Backstab damage calculation

The backstab/sinister strike damage calculation in both Rogue-DPS and Rogue-Gear spreadsheet
seem to be wrong for the current live and PTR servers.

What started this was the observation that the tooltip information for backstab did not match
the conventional wisdom as shown in the sheets.
With a 15/41/5 combat dagger build on live the tooltip for backstab is:
195% weapon dmg +255
and on PTR with added aggression:
204% weapon dmg +255
150*(1+opportunity)*(1+suprise attacks)*(1+aggression)
For live this comes out to 198% (opportunity and surpise attacks) and for PTR to 208%

So is this only a fluke in the frontend or a real issue?
I went to respec a couple of times on the PTR observing for every point spent the backstab tooltip.
From that it looks like the backstab multiplier is computed as:
150% *(1+opportunity+surprise+aggression)
That matches the BS tooltip for live and PTR in all combinations of spending points.

Now does the server calculate the same?
Seems so!
I got me a starting dagger (1-2 dmg 1.6 speed) and teste with some mobs on live and PTR.
Attack sequence was:
Cheap Shot, BS, Kick and of course the autoattacks.
Kick to get a guess of the armor reduction.

Spec was 15/41/5, 1735 AP no "on proc AP" trinkets.
First subject was an undead mage on hellfire peninsula:

Kick showed 85 dmg, backstab 578
From the kick dmg we can compute the armorreduction.
Since I dont know how Blizz rounds dmg numbers, I computed an upper and lower bound for dmg reduction:

(85-0.5)/110 = .768182 (to account for proper roundig up)
(85+0.99999)/110 = 0.78181 (to account for truncation).
(Sidenote: I purposly did not account for murder talent and wordlbuff in this computation. They will cancle out later anyway)
Code:

`  Observed BS dmg = BS Basedmg *(1+Murder)*(1+Worldbuff) * Kickdmg/(110*(1+Murder)*(1+wordlbuff))`
Now for the damage calculations
Code:

```Weapon dmg =1.5+1735/14*1.7 =212.178571 BS Dmg (per Sheets) = (1.5*wdmg+255)*1.2*1.1 = 756.71357 BS Dmg (per WoW)    = (1.5*wdmg+255)*1.3 = 745.248214 Facor in the two damage reduction values we get  Sheet dmg range:  581.293607        591.612428 WoW dmg range:  572.486128    582.648603```
The observed dmg of 578 fits nicely in the second dmg range.

My conclusion: WoW really computes the backstab damge different than the current sheets do.
I dont think that is a stealth nerf in one of the last versions. Rather I think the formulas
were not correctly tested when rogue theocrafting started.

What seems to be necessary now is to reestablish the order of application of different talents/set boni; are they really multiplikativ or rather additive?

Note on armor reduction values obtained via 'kick' method:
When this was done, did everyone took into account "Murder", "Worldbuff" and possibly other global dmg enhancinge buffs?

While testing with different mobs (unded/human) it looks like at least "Murder" and the worldbuffs still factor in multiplicative.

Snippet from combatlog
Code:

```11/4 13:44:48.375  Ihr bekommt 'Verstohlenheit'. 11/4 13:45:10.890  'Verstohlenheit' schwindet von Euch. 11/4 13:45:10.890  Ihr bekommt 'Hast'. 11/4 13:45:11.000  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer kritisch für 309 Schaden. 11/4 13:45:11.296  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer ist von Fieser Trick betroffen. 11/4 13:45:12.359  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 155. 11/4 13:45:13.843  Meucheln von Euch trifft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer für 578 Schaden. 11/4 13:45:13.843  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer kritisch für 310 Schaden. 11/4 13:45:15.234  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 154. 11/4 13:45:15.406  Ihr scheitert beim Ausführen von Tritt: Nicht genug Energie. 11/4 13:45:15.453  Fieser Trick schwindet von Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. 11/4 13:45:16.078  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer trifft Euch für 114 Schaden. 11/4 13:45:16.656  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 155. 11/4 13:45:17.562  Tritt von Euch trifft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer für 85 Schaden. 11/4 13:45:17.953  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer kritisch für 309 Schaden. 11/4 13:45:18.156  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer greift an. Ihr pariert. 11/4 13:45:18.562  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer beginnt Feuerball zu wirken. 11/4 13:45:18.765  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 155. 11/4 13:45:19.109  Ihr scheitert beim Ausführen von Finsterer Stoß: Nicht genug Energie. 11/4 13:45:20.078  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 155. 11/4 13:45:20.781  Finsterer Stoß trifft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer kritisch: 593 Schaden. 11/4 13:45:20.984  'Hast' schwindet von Euch. 11/4 13:45:21.578  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 155. 11/4 13:45:21.781  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer trifft Euch mit 'Feuerball' für 452 Feuerschaden. 11/4 13:45:22.656  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer beginnt Feuerball zu wirken. 11/4 13:45:23.140  Ihr scheitert beim Ausführen von Finsterer Stoß: Nicht genug Energie. 11/4 13:45:23.296  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 155. 11/4 13:45:24.906  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 154. 11/4 13:45:25.093  Finsterer Stoß von Euch trifft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer für 264 Schaden. 11/4 13:45:25.484  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer versucht es mit Feuerball... widerstanden. 11/4 13:45:25.921  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer beginnt Flammenstoß zu wirken. 11/4 13:45:26.515  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 154. 11/4 13:45:26.578  Ihr scheitert beim Wirken von Hast: Gegenstand ist noch nicht bereit.. 11/4 13:45:27.015  Ihr bekommt 25 Energie durch Unerbittliche Stöße. 11/4 13:45:27.515  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer ist von Nierenhieb betroffen. 11/4 13:45:28.125  Ihr trefft Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer. Schaden: 155. 11/4 13:45:28.187  Ihr habt Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer getötet! 11/4 13:45:28.656  Unerschütterlicher Zauberhexer stirbt.```

 Rosvall 11/04/07 11:04 AM

Interesting find. I'll go and do some tests myself and see if I can post em here.

PTR Seems to be moving slowly, So I'll just do some on Live.

Okey, Done.

Shows 1332 Ap, 123 hit, ALMOST 20% armor reduction, Miner/eng = no +weapondamage on ring. No trinkets, no meta gem (Meh w/e) Also Deequiped items with armor reduce.

So let's do the values.

(1332/14)*1,7 + 1,5 = 163,243

WoW Values (163,243*1,5+255) * 1,3 = 649,824 With armor
649,824 * 0,8 = 519,859. Taking the small armor difference from 20, and truncations ~520 is very close to 521.

Take the sheets values, (163,243*1,5+255) * 1,2 * 1,1 = 659,821 With armor 659,821 * 0,8 = 527,857. Not as close. I think we can conclude that the sheets need some tuning =).

Thanks krystah for your time testing.

 sp00n 11/04/07 12:33 PM

 Dontmindme 11/04/07 2:47 PM

We now have 3 people who have tested this and come to the same conclusion...
Truth be told, I tested this when Surprise Attacks was first added and found it to be additive with Opportunity. Although, when the 41 point talents first got added prior to the expansion, the +255 was not multiplied (it is now).

 Karmon 11/04/07 5:18 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by sp00n (Post 536682)
Mehh:/
Missed that.
Truth is lastly I did not follow the sheet threads because they were derailing IMO :(

 Dontmindme 11/04/07 5:22 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Karmon (Post 536837) Mehh:/ Missed that. Truth is lastly I did not follow the sheet threads because they were derailing IMO :(
Not a problem at all. I'm glad you put up this post with such a well-documented display. Further documentation is always good.

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