Murder does in fact give a bit more than 2% damage, so the observed result is theoretically possible under the assumption that Ruthlessness does absolutely nothing at all - which generally isn't true of dagger rogues. The Murder issue was just raised on the Rogue Gear thread; for more details of the underlying mechanic that is occurring, you can read my explanation here: http://elitistjerks.com/608832-post1880.html

I did not argue that Ruthlessness has no effect at all for dagger rogues. All I said was that the effect of Murder in the spreadsheets is so big for combat dagger builds that it might be preferrable to Ruthlessness. Therefore the standard 15/41/5 build - as it is posted in Roguecraft 101, wowwiki and other sources - provides less dps than possible.

And discussing dagger viability and thus comparing daggers with swords and other builds we should start from the same assumptions for both builds. One assumption is: We fight a standard boss where all rogue talents (i.e. poison and murder) work.

IMHO that is important because Murder is a talent included in all standard combat builds except for daggers. It therefore can be one factor contributing towards the dps difference in an ideal surrounding with no positional obstacles and perfect dps uptime (as the spreadsheets assume).

So all I argue is that in the theoretical "standard" combat daggers build two points in Murder is preferable over Ruthlessness. I know that I can't support this hypothesis with any numbers for the effect of Ruthlessness but only with my own experiences in the spreadsheet with model builds. Can anybody enlighten me with any theorycrafting speaking for or against this assumption?

Of course I know that it depends on the actual boss. I concede that there are quite a few bosses where murder has no effect. But in these cases the effect of Murder in the sword builds doesn't work either. So it's no use for an abstract comparison of (combat) daggers and other builds

If the effect of Murder can be greater than 2 % and this is affected by the numbers of crits and - if I got it right - perhaps additionally RED, than there is a good chance that murder is more effective in backstab builds with their higher crit rate then in other combat builds, right?

I'd just like to see Imp Ambush trade places with Sleight of Hand.
The reasoning behind this is extremely simple:

Backstab as an ability is very reliant on the matching talent. Also, a backstab built relies heavily on it's matching opener: Ambush. But taking the talent to improve that opener, which is basically a must-have as well, hurts your energy and combo regeneration, a LOT.

Moving Imp Ambush one tier up, means it will be possible to build specs which include other key talents. For example:
Relentless Strikes + Combat Potency + Surprise Attacks + Imp Ambush
or
3pt Seal Fate + Dagger Spec/Dual Wield + Imp Ambush.

Granted, this change would mostly benefit PvP backstab rogues, for PvE, there would still be little to no change.

In a older topic (which i'm a bit lazzy to look for), i was discussing about OH speed attack and someone made a good answer to it, which i'll try to sum up.

Pre-BC, fastest OH raid sword speed was 1.6.
Post-BC, 1.5 is common (thanks to arena gear), and 1.4 is present (latros / savagery / warglaive).

In MH, "normal" dagger speed seems to be 1.8 and "normal" sword speed would be 2.6.
Ratio is 2.6 / 1.8 = 1.44.

By keeping the same ratio on the OH, dagger would keep far better combat potency proc as well as better poison application : without poison talent, deadly poison does drop sometimes with 1.08 oh, 1.4 dagger with 35% snd.

To keep the same ratio on MH, OH sword would be 1.6 and OH dagger would be 1.1.
This would really close the gap between the two specs.

In the unconfirmed 2.4 stuff, it seems all OH, swords and daggers are going to be 1.5.


Also, for those who ask sword spec to proc OH attacks, keep in mind those would also proc combat potency, thus still being a superior weapon spec.

I think the answer here is in the dagger spec in combat tree itself and should be limited there. Already having to talent out in all 3 trees to maximize your dagger damage (imp backstab/opp), putting pve important dagger talents anywhere but combat seems like a waste.

Several ideas in this thread are good, going off existing themes. I like a 1% per point in spec to haste, armor reduction, or energy reduction (2 energy per point on backstab).

I think the main issue is that even if you make all the sacrifices that come with combat/daggers and play perfectly, you will still do worse dps than a sword build.

They could just buff the damage output somehow, either through the base backstab ability, or give dagger spec some goodies or anything, so combat/dagger would do a little bit more damage than other builds given the opportunity.

It's ok to have all those drawbacks, as long it's rewarded.

They did it, but obviously not enough.

Although I think the opportunity suggestions are good too. But changing the backstab dmg multiplier is a quick fix.

Since Opportunity is such a poor talent (gives a 20% buff to 4 separate abilities on the first tier and still nobody likes it), I'd like to consider what would happen if they just removed it. The damage modifiers for BS and Ambush could be added to the improved BS/Ambush talents, justified given the additional weight those talents carry in completing the respective abilties. Nobody gives a damn about Garrote's bonus damage and Mutilate users don't usually bother with Opportunity anyway. Not to mention the stealth talents could be brought back to the first tier to appease the casuals and some of the other subtlety talents which don't deserve their tier could be brought down (Enveloping Shadows, Setup, etc.).

And regarding Seal Fate and potential CP waste, I'd like to see Expose Armour as an ignore armour self-buff rather than a target debuff. I think that'd give heavy assassination a new edge, although I haven't tried to model it so I don't know any numbers.

What good would a self buff EA do? If you're farming.. sure. In pvp if you're switching targets and are the only melee dps, sure. Any time there are multiple physical dps classes present, a target debuff is far more powerful. From a raid perspective, EA is a good sized dmg buff to the raid as a whole over Sunder (assuming non-prot warrior tank). If it was a solo-only buff, there would be no point using it over rupture unless it stacked with Sunder or something.

Edit: Changed 2nd word to good instead of could.. typo.

If it were an armor-ignore self-buff, it would stack with sunder by default. It would take quite a significant, and unprecedented, hack to make a self-buff not stack with a specific target debuff.
The main change is that it would give Mutilate rogues something to spend their combo points on instead of eviscerate, which can only improve. Depending on the duration mechanics, combat daggers might have issues keeping it up (including long and convoluted cycles).

The Agression change didn't fix combat daggers because rather than adding a dagger-specific change, it only took one item off the list of things that other combat builds get that daggers don't, and it was one of the smallest ones. Backstab needs some way to be actually better than sin strike, not another way to be equal, because it's behind in other ways (combo points and talent points). Straight-up buffing the damage of backstab could potentially do it, if the buff were large enough. It wouldn't be a particularly exciting change, but it would work.

Uhm. a Self-Buff EA would be huge in raid-terms as it would most-likely (considering TNB) stack with sunder. 0 armor on bosses is QUITE nice.

Edit. Need to refresh threads before posting...

As for BS, maybe snd/ea would be better than snd/rupture.

I had an idea that seems to me like a rather elegant solution to the problems with daggers. Feel free to disagree, of course.

1. Remove the damage bonus that Mutilate gets against poisoned targets.
2. Replace the Vigor talent with this new talent:
Daring Daggers
Your Ambush, Backstab, and Mutilate abilities increase the damage of your next Ambush, Backstab, or Mutilate attack by 50%. Lasts 10 seconds.


Pluses:
The mechanic of Mutilate is unchanged, while the frustrating poison requirement is removed.
Backstab gets a big buff that compensates for its positional requirement and low combo point generation.
Opens the door for some fun PvP interaction with Ambush and Backstab or Mutilate.

Minuses:
Best Backstab build would probably be 31/25/5, stripping it of important talents like Combat Potency and Surprise Attacks.
Backstab might be too powerful when buffed from all of Murder/Daring Daggers/Imp Backstab/Opportunity.
No more Vigor.

I for one could live with it.

give Backstab a 40% chance to add a second combo point?
got ofc to negate that as soon as you pick up SF.
but still, i am doing fine on bosses and on trash i occasinally get out a sword since agression was buffed for us.

I am really enjoying my rogue right now and have been reading rogue related posts on this website the last couple of days. To be honest, I quickly got caught up in this thread because my rogue uses daggers and, well, making my chosen style beafier was appealing. However, after some thought I've decided that I'm going to step on some toes for my very first post on this website.

Everyone wants to succeed, to excel, and, well, in terms of 14 year old, fat, basement dwelling geeks, "pwn", and there's nothing wrong with this as it's human nature. After trying all three trees the rogue has to offer I decided that I liked the Subtlety tree the most, partly because of the utility, but mainly because it's just the most fun (who knows why each person finds different things fun?). Admittedly, I was kind of bummed at the lack of killing power I had the first time I specced Subtlety, but Blizzard has beefed it up recently and I was lucky enough to stumble onto a spec that emphasized burst damage (my main character focus is PVP) and gives the user a high level of interaction (I get bored if my character doesn't involve enough interaction [like an Enhancement shaman; zzzzzzzzzzz]).

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator (The original spec I saw, and used, had 5/5 points in Deadliness, but I relocated them into Camouflage because I like its utilitiy.)

When I saw this build the pieces just fell together and I could tell it would work for what I want, so I immediately specced to it.

By now I'm sure you're wondering what my point is, but hey, don't worry, it's next on the agenda. Honestly, the point of a game is to have fun, and you should find what you most enjoy and roll with it. That may mean that you play something that does less DPS, but if doing the most damage possible is what tickles your happy button then spec appropriately; only you can properly weigh the pros and cons of all your possibities to maximize the fun factor. If, along the way, you discover a true imbalance, then post it on the forums and convince as many people as possible with facts etc.; just remember that some trees offer more utility to make up for a lack in DPS. So, what am I really saying? Quit wasting your time dreaming of ways to have the best of everything all at once so you (yeah, just you) are happy and find the best compromise; it's a fact of life: you can't have everything you want. If you can prove mathematically, using a scientific approach, that daggers and/or backstab is underbalanced then submit it and I'll be the first person there to help push it through and celebrate if it gets changed.

I've actually, just recently, thought of a change I am going to implement into my play style with the build I have chosen, and see how it works. Subtlety is about being sneaky and doing burst damage right? Well, I know I can get 5 combo points on someone really fast from stealth using: A) Premeditation, CS, (BS if needed) or if Premed is on CD B) CS, BS, Hemo (another Hemo if needed) where I can then Shadowstep/Eviscerate. Well, rogues are squishy and this build doesn't offer the best sustained white damage so at that point, do what sneaky people do best and run the f*&# away so you can come back and do it again; you have KS, Gouge, Blind, Vanish, Sprint, and Preparation, use them. Keep an eye out for that one enemy who is messing your team up (healers etc.), or wait for someone to be almost dead, and then jump in and stay there until someone notices you.

No one is saying that you shouldn't play to have fun; however, if the answer to all questions were "do whatever is the most fun", we wouldn't have much need of theorycrafting forums such as these. The implicit assumption of these forums is that while ultimately everyone will do what's the most fun, there is still value in knowing what is actually best. So saying "this may be inferior but I'm going to play it anyway because it's fun", while totally valid, is not really productive in terms of adding to the discussion.

Now, in terms of the build you've selected: it's been... repeatedly, and quantitatively, shown to be vastly inferior to other options for PvE. Yes, it adds utility, but the consensus of about 150 different posts across 3 or 4 different threads is that it's just not enough to make up for the loss of DPS in PvE. Does that mean you shouldn't play it? No. It just means that, regardless of whether you or anyone chooses to play it (or not), it should be remembered that it *is* inferior.

Now, for PvP, it might be somewhat more viable, but my suspicion is that the burdensome positional requirements on daggers are such that you might be better off switching to a sword/fist/mace after the initial Shadowstep. I don't PvP much, so I could be wrong, of course; but my understanding is that most serious PvP rogues have better luck with a mace-based spec than with daggers, so in that area a daggerstep build also falls behind.

So, again: play whatever you want. Have fun. Whatever. But don't demean the rest of us as "wasting our time" just because we're trying to figure out what's actually best.

Mel, I have to say, I'm a bit torn. Subtlety daggers is what I would play in a heartbeat if it could even shake a stick at the DPS of 41/20 or 15/41/5, but it simply can't.

That said, I have played with it a ton. Outside of times when you get to use Premeditation, your combo point generation is crap to say the least. It's that simple fact that leads me to the question (ignoring the spec's inferiority for a second): Why would you bother with Ruthlessness and Improved Eviscerate? And no Improved Ambush!? No Deadliness?

Subt daggers' only real source of damage is big Backstab crits. Your white damage is miserable without Precision and DW Spec, and you don't let off nearly enough combos to justify Eviscerate as a damage source at all.

If you're serious about Subt daggers in both settings, I'd highly recommend you try this spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

And for cryin' out loud, don't use Hemo with daggers. You should know better than that!

Hemo and SS are based off weapon damage. That means they hit just over half as hard with a dagger as they do with a slow sword/fist/mace. However, they cost the same amount of energy with either weapon. So if you use Hemo with a dagger, you're using the same amount of energy but doing a lot less damage. This is also why you want to use a slow mainhand sword/fist/mace with SS/Hemo, rather than a fast weapon. Daggers are in fact doubly disadvantaged for Hemo/SS because they have a lower normalisation coefficient - i.e. yellow attacks with daggers get less benefit from your AP.

If you're wielding daggers, you use backstab to generate combo points - period.

Oh, I see. I thought it might be good to the option of adding fast combo points if you wanted to switch to some stunlocking or something. So, if I get rid of Hemo, is Serrated Blades worth taking still, or should I skip that entirely too?

Perhaps something like this: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

You are on the wrong forums then buddy, this is not the pvp section and the post is titled "Dagger Viability". This means PVE viability, and in PVE as a rogue you don't look at anything besides damage per second. And for proof that daggers is worse damage then swords, search through the hundreds upon hundreds of pages about rogue theorycrafting and raid dps. Its not necessary to re-post math in every statement about daggers, its common knowledge to any raiding rogue that they are inferior DPS.

So now can we please go back to the topic of how to make them more viable for PVE, if you want to give us life lessons about choices and happiness take it to general discussion.

(Trust me I'm saving you from the wrath of Kaubel)

Anyway, Im thinking about a serrated blades mechanic built into imp backstab... simply buffing coefficients never seems to produce sufficient results and I doubt its what most rogues are looking for. The sword spec just scales tooo well with haste and combat potency for any rogue to give it up in its current state.

To be perfectly technical the OP does mention both PvE and PvP, so discussing the pvp viability of daggers is not totally out of place. However, I think it requires more than anecdotal "it's fun to bounce in and out with Shadowstep" type comments to analyze the viability of daggers in PvP; I think what's really needed is some way of addressing the point that the huge positional dependence of daggers puts one at a significant disadvantage.

Ummm, I finally got a chance to look at that build, and I thought you just said not to use Hemo w/ daggers...?

Well the spreadsheet isn't 'proof', but it does support the experience-borne assertion that daggers are lagging behind in DPS. Add that to the positional requirements, the loss of freedom in spec choice, the energy demands, and the PVP-related changes in TBC (if that interests you), then you get the argument that daggers need a buff.

I raided (and played group PVP) with daggers before TBC and I enjoyed it. The added effort for Backstab was rewarded with a better result: you had to gouge/stun, get behind, spend 60 energy on the nuke, but at least you could see your opponent's health plummet. In TBC, at least from my experience, the results of BS/Muti aren't worth the talents/effort any more.

Furthermore, BS differs from SS/Hemo in that it needs certain talents to deal sufficient damage, to maintain cycles, to keep the PVP target in place, etc. (Also see post #86 by PSGarak, above.)

When your primary nuke and CP generator leechs so many talents and requires so much special treatment, it is fair to demand better returns than from SS/Hemo, since the effect on the overall output of the spec when one of the requirements fails is far more devastating. [Would you invest in a high-risk stock if the returns were likely to be less than for a low-risk stock?]

That you can shadowstep-ambush a primal farmer in Nagrand, for example, doesn't say much about the overall spec (--although it does imply the limitations) and certainly doesn't say much about its sustained capabilities, which is the chief concern here.

Back on topic, I'd like to re-iterate my opinion that the main problem with daggers is the amount of talents needed, not the positional requirements. BS/Muti should not be made easier or cheaper, but should be made stronger and with fewer talents. Remove Opportunity and reallocate the effects of the talent to improved BS and improved ambush, thus justifying the weight of those talents (in that they are needed for using the respective abilities) and buff Lethality's effect to 10/../50% bonus damage for BS/Muti.