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Old 11/20/07, 3:46 PM   #16
Uglesh
Piston Honda
 
Orc Warrior
 
Bonechewer
Isn't this whole topic fairly pointless since we all know this stat is very benifical offensively (threat) and defensively (fewer parry strings)... but more than anything, there just isn't enough ways to "stack" this stat to make it really anything more than a frill.

If we start seeing enchants and gems with Expertise then I think more math will be needed. For now, just keep stacking stamina and enjoy the few pieces of +expertise gear that you can afford... it's just gravy for now.

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Old 11/20/07, 5:44 PM   #17
Chirality
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by Garithras View Post
Here's my probably-incorrect stab at maths. One parry is usually not dangerous. Two in a row or more are where they become difficult for healers to cope with. If we have 50% combined avoidance (defined as that which would completely avoid an incoming hit, miss/parry/dodge) and assume a 15% chance of a boss parrying, which is close to where I am at personally, there is a 7.5% chance (50% * 15%) that a hit will be parried, and the resulting incoming hit will not be avoided. The chance of 2 parries in a row, with neither avoided, is .5625% (7.5% * 7.5%), which puts it into the realm of plausible to not occur once throughout an entire boss fight, albeit perhaps not likely. Calculated with 4 expertise (1% less parry), the chance changes to .49%. Calculated at the maximum expertise available to me (57 rating from [Mallet of the Tides], [Brooch of Deftness] and [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx], plus the 6 from defiance), a total of 5% less parry, I get .25% chance of 2 consecutive parry + hit.

To get the same results out of avoidance, it requires a fair bit more avoidance than expertise. At 51% avoidance, we get .54% (49% * 15% = 7.35%). To get the same .49% as 1% less parry, it takes an additional ~3% avoidance. To get .25% chance as with 5% less parry, it takes an additional ~16% avoidance.
I find your math very convincing, actually.

The multiplicative nature of (not_parry && not_hit ) is what makes the antiparry mechanic so beneficial...

A quantification of how much maximum burst you reduce via expertise is what allows us to argue about the defensive value of expertise...and your argument makes a good case for expertise being a better defensive stance than people give it credit for...

After all, I might tank Tidewalker for 30 minutes (assuming 3 wipes), with the first 3 wipes being the result of a very very rare chance and the success the result of good luck on parries/crushes.

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Old 11/20/07, 5:53 PM   #18
 sordee
Priest for Hire
 
sordee's Avatar
 
Sordee
Tauren Priest
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Uglesh View Post
Isn't this whole topic fairly pointless since we all know this stat is very benifical offensively (threat) and defensively (fewer parry strings)... but more than anything, there just isn't enough ways to "stack" this stat to make it really anything more than a frill.

If we start seeing enchants and gems with Expertise then I think more math will be needed. For now, just keep stacking stamina and enjoy the few pieces of +expertise gear that you can afford... it's just gravy for now.
Yes and no. Specifically lets take a look at [Brooch of Deftness] and a similar ILevel [Frayed Tether of the Drowned].

Assuming you can always hit crit-cap, many love the Brooch for trash, but would still use the Tether for for boss tanking, right? Or does the parry-mitigation combined with the threat generation make the Brooch better?

Then again most may still just use the [Barbed Choker of Discipline] before upgrading to [The Darkener's Grasp]

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Old 11/20/07, 5:54 PM   #19
Chirality
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by Uglesh View Post
Isn't this whole topic fairly pointless since we all know this stat is very benifical offensively (threat) and defensively (fewer parry strings)... but more than anything, there just isn't enough ways to "stack" this stat to make it really anything more than a frill.

If we start seeing enchants and gems with Expertise then I think more math will be needed. For now, just keep stacking stamina and enjoy the few pieces of +expertise gear that you can afford... it's just gravy for now.
Not exactly pointless. Consider my situation:

I have a crappy tanking belt (from Heroic Ramparts) (Lion's Heart Girdle - Items - World of Warcraft)
I have mediocre bracers (the ones from Attunesmen) (Vambraces of Courage - Items - World of Warcraft)

Is it worth it for me to buy Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx (Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx - Items - World of Warcraft) to upgrade my tanking set, or would the belt, Irontusk Girdle (Iron-tusk Girdle - Items - World of Warcraft) be a better upgrade for overall tanking.

Of course, my Lion's Heart Girdle is so crappy that the Iron-Tusk is a far better upgrade, but you see my point. It's not JUST an academic issue.

edit: Sordee beat me to it, and gave a better example than I.

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Old 11/20/07, 8:35 PM   #20
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
While at first I was gonna say "expertiese would be a better kind of avoidance becuase it's a "parry-gib"-avoidance" I thought again and figured that dodge/defense/etc are also "parry-gib"-avoidance as the attacks actually need to land in order to parry gib you... So if you're looking at the total chance for a "parry-gib" to happen there would be a breakpoint for a given gear setup where X expertiese is worth Y avoidance. However if you look at "chance for N hits to happen under X seconds" this ratio would be very different and dependant on X and N, as if for example X<boss weapon speed and N=2 then reducing parry VS increasing avoidance will have a different relation than if N and X were very large numbers.
Basically the defensive capability of expertise really depends on what actually kills your tank (doube block in <1s = dead tank? or does he also need to crush after that? etc). However given what you actually want to avoid, expertise and avoidance *are* interchangeable when it comes to avoiding that.

The puchline would be though that since boss parry change is just way too high to reduce to 0 or anywhere near it, you will still need the stamina/armor to handle whatever parry gib type you chose you want to reduce the chance of happening, thus expertise, like avoidance, will never be able to replace stamina/mitigation for survivability, assuming a hard hitting boss that can kill the tank in less than "several hits" (~6 or something like that was theorycrafted on another thread).

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Old 11/20/07, 9:30 PM   #21
Uglesh
Piston Honda
 
Orc Warrior
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by sordee View Post
Yes and no. Specifically lets take a look at [Brooch of Deftness] and a similar ILevel [Frayed Tether of the Drowned].

Assuming you can always hit crit-cap, many love the Brooch for trash, but would still use the Tether for for boss tanking, right? Or does the parry-mitigation combined with the threat generation make the Brooch better?

Then again most may still just use the [Barbed Choker of Discipline] before upgrading to [The Darkener's Grasp]
While I know what you're getting at, my point is that there are only 3-4 pieces where you could argue either way, but as a "Stat" its just not something that's feasible to stack in large enough quantity to warrant excessive testing. Taking too many +expertise items will leave you short of Defence quickly (not to mention avoidance).
Boss Parry rate is just too high to completely eliminate the insta-gib risk, which means we're still left with what we already know works.

When looking at those Neck pieces, I would definately take the Brooch as long as I need the hit rating and have enough defence not to worry about it.

Last edited by Uglesh : 11/20/07 at 9:33 PM. Reason: content clarification

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Old 11/26/07, 10:07 PM   #22
Thelliand
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dath'Remar
On a related note:

After causing a couple of wipes on Al'ar due to resisted taunts after Melt Armor, does anyone have any data whether Expertise will also decrease the taunt resist rate (ie. effectively can taunt be dodged/parried in the new system?).

Just wondering if I can swap in some expertise gear, or only +hit gear is gonna be useful to reduce taunt resist rate?

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Old 11/26/07, 10:37 PM   #23
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
PSGarak's Avatar
 
Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
It's an academic question at the moment, because the stat has only been just released and for tanks generally appears only on gear that was just released, which is all T5-ish level. It's going to become a much more realistic concern when it enters mainstream itemization, which it will at the release of Sunwell Plateau gear, and again in WLK, and even more so if blizzard decides to do away with crushing blows (as a boss mechanic). We very well could end up in the future where it is possible to expertise-cap, and possibly even juggle around pieces of equiment to stay around the cap, and I think it's worth it to get a head-start on what sort of stamina/mitigation/avoidance it's worth to sacrifice to get to that point. There's certainly no harm in seeing what sort of effect expertise will have eventually even if that won't be for a while.


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Old 11/27/07, 2:21 AM   #24
bland
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Mjollnir View Post
From the standpoint of mitigation, this doesn't matter. The mob won't counter-attack, as a spell is being cast. Any normal swings must wait until cast complete.
I'd like to claim I've seen parries happen while spells are being cast, but I've no proof to support my claim. I know for a fact dodges do (again no proof), but would assume the mechanics would allow parries too under the circumstances.
Some mobs cast while attacking, though few. One in particular is Gaithos for the Illidari Council. If a boss can parry while casting, unless that boss is attacking while casting, then a parry is meaningless, it does not add haste to the next swing because the next swing is going to be the first, nothing to haste it towards. Can't make a first attack faster if it cannot attack while casting.

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Old 11/27/07, 10:17 AM   #25
Zure
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Mage
 
Nathrezim
All of this parry gib discussion raises two points related to the speed of a tank's attacks:

First, with a working avoidance value for expertise, and better information on mob parry rate, we can attach a specific avoidance value to weapon speed. This might significantly upping the tanking value of weapons like Rage .

Second, absolute avoidance optimization dictates using the minimum number of attacks sufficient to hold agro on the mob one is tanking. So technically tanks well ahead on threat would be doing their raid a favor to cut low threat moves from their rotation when they have a comfortable hold on agro. It's even possible that one should completely disable auto-attack for the final few percent of a boss's life and just spam non-parryable abilities (demo shout, thunderclap).

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Old 11/27/07, 10:32 AM   #26
bludwork
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warrior
 
Eonar
Expertise might be a tad overrated as it matters only in fights where the tank is undergeared or has a regular insta-gib component to it. On regular and farm content expertise only increases threat.

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Old 11/27/07, 3:43 PM   #27
Zindel
Don Flamenco
 
Zindel's Avatar
 
Asik
Human Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by bludwork View Post
Expertise might be a tad overrated as it matters only in fights where the tank is undergeared or has a regular insta-gib component to it. On regular and farm content expertise only increases threat.
Expertise as a mitigation stat is probably overrated. It is, however, a very good threat stat.

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Old 11/30/07, 10:02 AM   #28
Mjollnir
Don Flamenco
 
Pojung
Undead Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by bland View Post
Some mobs cast while attacking, though few. One in particular is Gaithos for the Illidari Council. If a boss can parry while casting, unless that boss is attacking while casting, then a parry is meaningless, it does not add haste to the next swing because the next swing is going to be the first, nothing to haste it towards. Can't make a first attack faster if it cannot attack while casting.
This is simple rewording to what I said, albeit probably better worded as well. Also, since last post, I can claim that parries can indeed occur during casts. Balinda in AV parried an attack twice in a row this past weekend for me.

Originally Posted by Zindel View Post
Expertise as a mitigation stat is probably overrated. It is, however, a very good threat stat.
While the threat gain is undeniable, let's not be so quick to write it off as having valid mitigation value as well. Of all roles in a raid, tanking is arguably the most min/max oriented. What sort of difference would it make to have 0 parries during a lengthly encounter? Keep in mind reducing the parry chance to 0 also means there can be no 'unlucky parry streaks' taking place either.
If I'm a tank looking to improve mitigation or avoidance, of course I'll look for dodge and armor count. But knowing there's a stat that will increase both my threat generation as well as help out on mitigation/avoidance is refreshing.

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Old 11/30/07, 11:20 AM   #29
Oreox
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Feathermoon
Just a quick question on mob parries.

Looking through our WWS info on our Morogrim fight, I see parries from pet attacks and other melee, in addition to my parried attacks. Do these trigger the reduced attack speed, or is it only triggered from a parried attack made by the mobs current target?

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Old 11/30/07, 1:15 PM   #30
tangent
Von Kaiser
 
Cotan
Orc Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Pets, other players, snake trap snakes, and the tank's parries all result in hasted hits on the tank.
Pets seem to be good about attacking from behind. For melee you just have to train them.
There are times that the parries can't be avoided because when a boss turns to do a random target ability on someone in the raid he can parry melee who are correctly standing behind him. This is probably what you are seeing on morogrim as he turns to send people to watery graves.

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