Edgewalker

Hit is a pretty miserable stat for Devastate DPS. So are, imo, two slow weapons. Using Brutalizer/Swiftsteel with Executioner/Mongoose I was able to pull just under 1400 DPS on Teron in a standard MT group (no enchancement shaman, bloodlusts, or feral druid). The entire damage cycle depends on continual supplies of rage, and is a real simple spam devastate with heroic strike and whirlwind in between mash.
I don't yet have a slower main hand, but if it's rage efficient (can fuel it's own devastate) a syphon / swiftsteel combo might even be quite a bit more.
At the highest end of all possible gear, if you could give yourself a 200 DPS one hander, protection would in fact be the premier DPS spec. Weird eh?

 

Thorgrim

This, along with the Revenge > Devastate comment in the OP about TPS, has me wondering - at what point does devastate TPS outstrip revenge? Since revenge is a fixed value, there must be a theoretical average weapon damage where devastate will pass it for TPS, if not TPR. If you could achieve this without sacrificing everything else it would simplify tanking rotations a lot.

 

Eyegore

It may be the lazy man's answer, but I find mashing the hell outta this baby serves me well.

#show Shield Slam
/startattack
/cast Shield Block
/use Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600
/castsequence reset=6 Shield Slam, Devastate, Devastate, Revenge


edit* or to be less glib about it, I find that, for me at least, using this macro to take care of the general stuff like keeping shield block up and spamming my aggro gen abilities allows me to focus my attention on other things (fight specific variables/timers, positioning, what have you). Maybe others can keep track of that all at once, I find this invaluable however. (does give you some spam about the trinket of course if you don't have it on/it's down, you could take that line out. Again, that just gives me one less thing to keep track of when I am wearing my aggro set.)

 

Tauftamir

Improved Leader of the Pack's heals are no longer causing threat?

Link

What are your thoughts on Haste Potions for your Potion/Aggressive Warrior section. I regularly use these with my Threat Gear especially in conjunction with Heroism (if my Shaman isn't getting subbed into the melee group to pop it).

 

stampy

I usually resist replying to the /castsequence reset=N posts, because I don't use them, and I'm not positive I'm right... but the way they are documented, that reset=6 means if you don't successfully use the current skill on the list for 6 seconds, it resets. It does not reset the sequence to the beginning every 6 seconds.

So, if you had enough rage to pop one ability every 5 seconds, you would be using shield slam every 20 seconds, as compared to doing SS, devastate, repeat.

Can anyone confirm this or tell me I'm a moron? Its a twitch for me to scream "THAT'S NOT RIGHT!" whenever I see the reset=N bing used like that, but I refrain because in the end I'm probably just making a noob out of myself.

 

bland

A suggestion: XRS (XRaidStatus) in GUI section (XX). It allows you to concisely show pertinent information instead of having to glance at a whole raid frame. My personal options:
Warrior Health
Healer Mana
Raid Mana
Death Count
Offline Count

Helps during trash, when or when not to pull, as well as on bosses - do we have enough alive for a good attempt to pop Shield Wall? etc.

It is an ace2, link provided here.

 

◊ Penguin

Personally I don't like XRS just for the sheer amount of hybrid specs in the raid. For example, Shaman mana is no indicator if the 2 resto shamans are ready for a pull. I have a small Grid with the ManaSideBar module enabled tucked in the corner. It provides more information than XRS, and doubles as a wonderfully quick range-check. Plus, the little red 'this person has aggro' dot can tell you which dps needs help in a hurry.

 

JamesVZ

I wholly agree. XRS and mods like it are the slickest thing since sliced bread as far as at-a-glance raid status is concerned. It does suck when you have to guesstimate your Enhancement Shaman's mana and factor that in, though, but I'm not sure I could ever get used to having Grid running as a tank. You'd think XRS would be able to work in specs now that you can inspect talents in the default UI. Any word on a mod that does?

 

Denogran

Intruding into the warrior thread here, but there was a crapload of great info in the first thread so I've been following along.

As a raiding pally in Vanilla WoW, I was obviously a healing paladin and slave to the raid id boxes. After TBC, I went tankadin and am loving it.

Being used to my raid bars being all over my screen, I've left them up, and they've been invaluable as a tank. When you get used to it, you'll realize that 25 people isn't that bad, and being able to know at a glance who exactly is dying, who's in range, who's dead and who's out of mana is exceptionally useful. When pulling trash, generally all you need to know is if most people are ready. In the thick of the fight knowing the exact person dead or oom can be amazingly useful.

 

Healranktwo

Oh no no, you don't have to give up any points in Weapon specialization. 12/5/44 will basically be...

Arms (12 points)

3/3 Improved Heroic Strike
5/5 Deflection
3/3 Improved Thunder Clap
1/1 Anger Management

Fury (5 points)

5/5 Cruelty

Protection (44 points)

2/2 Improved Bloodrage
5/5 Anticipation
5/5 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
1/1 Last Stand
1/1 Improved Shield Block
3/3 Defiance
3/3 Improved Sunder Armor
1/1 Concussion Blow
3/3 Shield Mastery
5/5 One-Handed Weapon Specialization
1/1 Shield Slam
3/3 Focused Rage
5/5 Vitality
1/1 Devastate

Basically you give up improved taunt and IDS for imp bloodrage, imp tclap, and anger management which imo is superior - if you are after max threat.

That's very true about who the guide is aimed at, i'm sorry about that. I pretty much envision a threat set that maximizes TPS (as far as you can go), yet not make you sacrifice tanking stats (I.E. DPS gear, gimper tier gears) and allows you to tank farmed content, but not get yourself into a position where healers are forced to compensate for how gimp you have become, or you being pretty much a mana sponge. The avoidance on a t5 vs t6 threat set comes out to about t6 losing 3% dodge, but winning by 4%~ more parry, which is a "threat" avoidance compared to dodge. A t5 threat set does have 200ish more AP and the 4 piece bonus, but otherwise has 1.5k less health and 50-100~ less shield slam hits.

 

◊ Quigon

First of all I think getting improved taunt is a better choice than getting improved bloodrage.
Second, you're always having to give up something.

In this case, you are giving up improved defensive stance for tclap and anger management. I've never seen gains from anger management that come close to making that sacrifice worth it. But it would truly be "more aggro."

 

Healranktwo

Like I said man, it's really to each his own here. I can come back full circle to say imp taunt is a trash move and never really used on 95% of boss fights =P imp bloodrage is an extra 6 rage every minute (which is small, but better than 0), or an extra 6 rage when you need that rage during avoidance streaks.

and while IDS is 5.4% reduction in spell damage, a max threat tank can afford to lose that - especially on farmed content and get anger management, which is extra rage and also lets you hold that extra rage longer on trash pulls.

Again yo, to each his own. I really don't intend to get into an argument here over what the superior threat spec is, because I also feel that whatever you spec, it won't make the difference in whether you do good TPS or not.

 

JamesVZ

The theory behind this is that when 95% of your night is trash and recovering deaths from trash, that talent becomes highly useful.

Uhh, how you spec matters very, very much. Different specs basically change your entire playstyle depending on the talents you pick up and/or drop. As for Imp Bloodrage, it was a talent I could fit into my lineup fairly easily pre-BC, and loved the HELL out of it then, but I haven't been able to work it in without serious concerns throughout BC and have not found myself wishing I had it even once. It's useful, but there's just so many other talents to get that it's not worthwhile anymore.

 

Healranktwo

when 95% of your raid night is recovering from trash deaths because you lack an extra 2 seconds on your taunt, something is far more wrong than you taking another talent besides imp taunt =P

The specs come down to imp bloodrage or imp taunt for fillers to get to the next tier. You don't need either, you just need them to move down the tree (actually only need one point, but who doesn't like to fill it up to feel all important eh?!). There's really no "other" talent you will get when you are deciding between imp bloodrage and imp taunt, unless you like imp disarm, imp shield bash, imp revenge, or imp shield wall?

This is so gonna turn into an argument at this rate lol. I YIELD I YIELD!

 

◊ Quigon

But this is wrong, and I think it is appropriate to call you on it. Implying that by taking improved taunt you are doing something wrong is completely off base. I am not saying that taking taking improved bloodrage is wrong, just that your argument is.
People wipe, and people wipe on trash - further, improved taunt provides functionality beyond wipe or death prevention.
Nearly every boss in the game will benefit to some degree by having the taunt ability - whether it is in clearing the trash leading up to the boss, or clearing the boss itself. What about ALL of mount hyjal? Mount Hyjal's difficulty, outside of archimonde, is solely the trash. Should the tank respec each week? What about using taunt and cs and taunt again (requires a 9 second CD) to hold reliquary a bit longer?

Your argument should be based on the value of 6 rage per minute, not on the lack of worth of improved taunt. I cannot begin to tell you the sheer number of times where this talent has been very useful for me... perhaps, nightly? Incidentally, we have had an Illidan wipe turned into a kill solely through this skill when an OT died. I guess we were doing something wrong, but mistakes happen, otherwise we'd all be laughing at how slow Nihilum is.

Further, if you are considering an aggressive tank, you are likely either farming, or doing a boss that requires top end threat. If you are farming, trash IS your night, and bosses make up a small percentage of that night. Regarding bosses that take high end threat, well, most of them are surrounded in a ton of respawning trash (and some have adds that are tauntable).

I'd say the key points of the argument are:
You can gain threat by giving up improved defensive stance, you can gain threat by giving up improved taunt (assuming you never lose threat).

The personal question is 6 rage per minute (under ideal cirumstances) worth a 20% faster taunt cooldown?
Is 20 rage per minute and improved thunderclap worth a some minor UBW rage and a raw 5.4% reduction on your spell damage?

Those are the questions.

 

Healranktwo

Don't misunderstand, I did not state that taking imp taunt makes you a bad tank or anything. Like I said, my talent spec is for max TPS on a mob, not counting on taunt and such. I used to have a standard 8/5/48 tank spec with imp taunt instead of imp bloodrage, so i'm not boycotting imp taunt. My point was basically that for max TPS, which I assumed the guide meant, that imp bloodrage was a better talent to get than imp taunt. If you are gonna maximize threat, you might as well go all the way right? Imp taunt is nice, but I really feel like 2 seconds won't make or break anything, just like the 6 rage you gain from imp bloodrage won't either. It's personal preference at this point.

I'm not sure what can of worms I opened here exactly. I'm pretty much saying that imp taunt or imp bloodrage are fillers for getting you to the next tier, and even if you didn't have either of them it won't matter - BUT imp bloodrage is the way to go if you want to maximize threat on one target (even if it only added 0.1 tps, its stills 0.1 tps more than what imp taunt provides on a boss). The examples you used like RoS is doable completely without imp taunt (taunt 10 seconds -> mocking blow 6 seconds -> challenging shout 6 seconds -> taunt would be up whether you had imp taunt or not) and about how it saved you on Illidan phase 2 adds...unless I misunderstood you, isn't one taunt from the other tank all you need to salvage a wipe where the OT died? How does that taunt cooldown come into play here?

I'm not saying getting imp taunt is you compensating for something, or how imp blood rage is superior to imp taunt. From start to finish, all I have said is that for single target TPS, imp bloodrage is obviously the talent to get as opposed to imp taunt. If the threat guide meant that trash as well, then my bad I guess. My vision of what a maximum threat tank differs from that I guess since I look at it as a tank that put out the most possible TPS on a boss.

 

◊ Quigon

Well you can certainly take things to extremes with talents. I believe you can give up deflection for higher threat as well.

I would agree that IDStance is a decent tradeoff for AM and ITC, but I'm not convinced on imp taunt for imp br.

Edit: I will update my guide soon with your suggestion for the former at least, it is certainly a good point.

 

Healranktwo

That wasn't my intention at all =(, sorry I turned this thread into something it didn't need to be.

 

◊ Quigon

The point is to have things be as complete or comprehensive, and accurate as possible - therefore debating points is useful. IDS for ITC and AM are certainly improvements in your threat, for this point in the article.

The reason I am not going to put the IT for IBR change in is because in many cases IT indirectly improve threat, or at least save time - perhaps it is personal bias also; if we were truly talking absolute 100% max, the gear set would change a bit as well, for instance the cloak just off the top of my head.

 

Garithras

Here are a couple more I haven't seen here yet. I really like to consolidate the number of buttons I need to have available, so my fingers don't need to reach any farther than absolutely necessary. Therefore, most of these are space-saving in nature. Some are solely my own creation; many at least have the inspiration from elsewhere.

Interrupt (stopcasting to make sure slam never gets in the way)
#showtooltip [equipped:Shields,nostance:3]Shield Bash; Pummel
/stopcasting
/cast [nostance:3,noequipped:Shields] Berserker Stance; [nostance:3,equipped:Shields] Shield Bash; Pummel

all-purpose charge (can set a /focus intervene for fights like Murmur)
#showtooltip
/dismount [exists]
/cast [stance:2,target=focus,exists][stance:2,harm,target=targettarget][stance:2,help][stance:2] Intervene; [combat,nostance:3] Berserker Stance; [stance:3] Intercept; Charge

fear immunity stance dance
#showtooltip Berserker Rage
/cast [nostance:3] Berserker Stance; Berserker Rage
/cast [stance:3] Defensive Stance

remove salv when tanking
#showtooltip
/cancelaura [stance:2] Blessing of Salvation
/cast Bloodrage

taunt/victory rush (ctrl- or right-click to change stances, mocking blow & immediately shift to defensive stance)
#showtooltip
/castsequence [stance:1,btn:2][stance:1,mod:ctrl]Mocking Blow;[stance:1/3]Victory Rush;[nostance:1,mod:ctrl][nostance:1,btn:2]Battle Stance;reset=8 Taunt,Challenging Shout
/cast [button:2][modifier:ctrl]Defensive Stance

 

Eyegore