◊ Quigon

Obviously the tank should debuff, but sometimes when you get parries going it seems like the speed-up is a lot faster than 40%. I remember when Patchwerk used to appear to windfury. Its possible latency toward blizzards servers do cause some catchup on hits somehow.

 

• Xaviera

Yeah and look at it even more indepth and you'll see lots of things that shouldn't be possible due to GCD's. It guesses.

Edit:

I'm "sure" that all of these events happened at this exact same moment:

2/18 22:57:09.500 Gift of the Wild fades from Kuuipo.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Greater Blessing of Kings fades from Kuuipo.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Trueshot Aura fades from Kuuipo.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Leader of the Pack fades from Kuuipo.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Unleashed Rage fades from Kuuipo.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Thundyr gains Ferocious Inspiration.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Kelli is afflicted by Dark Decay (13).
2/18 22:57:09.500 Chocho gains Aura of the Crusader (8).
2/18 22:57:09.500 Yaely gains Ferocious Inspiration.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Zalae gains Ferocious Inspiration.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Flurry fades from Lightnyn.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Yxcustsists gains Ferocious Inspiration.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Nelocloud begins to cast Lesser Healing Wave.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Sadarie's Earth Shield heals Sadarie for 918.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Sadarie reflects 39 Nature damage to High King Maulgar.
2/18 22:57:09.500 Olm the Summoner attacks. Kelli dodges.

Or... maybe it's just guessing that they occured around the same time based on a set amount of slices of a one-second-window that the combat log tries to analyze.

 

vorda

In danger of derailing more, I've taken a good look at some combatlogs and this is actually interesting material.
Happen to know of a topic on this? (since this isnt really the place to talk about it)

 

Chardonnay

Combat log is certainly heavily inaccurate sometimes.
This is a clear proof of that:

20:51'42.277 Delicatesse gains Shield Block
20:51'43.046 Al'ar's Melee hits Delicatesse for 4342 (333 blocked)
20:51'44.808 Al'ar's Melee hits Delicatesse for 8225 (333 blocked)
20:51'45.078 Delicatesse is afflicted by Melt Armor
20:51'47.280 Al'ar's Melee hits Delicatesse for 14000 (crushing)
20:51'47.496 Delicatesse gains Shield Block
20:51'47.906 Delicatesse dies

I guess:
1) Al'ar can't hit me for 8K+ before Melt Armor is in effect
2) I can't SB when dead

Also, hitting me 0.03sec after SB comes of the cooldown was not nice

 

kaellie

I don't have the combat log since it was when we were learning Grull last year (and I am at work) but I remember what I had in the log window:
-Grull crushes you for XXXX
-You die
-You gain shield block
-Some paladin heals you for XXXX

I gain shield block and was healed while dead. I think that was one of those nights where the boss juste doesn't want to die ...

 

• Mjollnir

This sort of reporting I'd assume is fairly commonplace. I know countless healers (since pre-bc) who would claim 'my heal landed!' and indeed it did, but *simultaneously* the tank ran out of hit points.
The idea about lag server-side and catchup on client-side is an interesting outlook.

 

Allfury

I'm not sure its neccesarily server side lag, the person a few posts back said "he can't cast shield block when he's dead", but a few weeks or so, I got:
(Al'ar enrage timer hits)
Al'ar hits you 26xxx (xxx blocked)
You gain Shield Wall.
You die.

Does that not imply that its my latency thats the problem? (I got the cooldown up as well /sigh).

 

Chardonnay

Yes it's probably latency. The server already rolled a killing blow on you, but your client didn't know it yet (latency) and let you activate shieldwall, or shield block in my case. Sucks to lose a 30 min cd on that

 

Trayou

hi im a tank that is main tanking for my guild and we are just starting to get down bosses in tk and ssc. im trying to find the best possible tanking spec for myself and all other warriors tanking in my guild. this is my spec atm


WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator

I have chosen this spec cause it helps my rage generation. but im starting to figure out all high end warrior tanks arnt speced like this. i did my reaserch and it looks like the best possible respec is this

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator

I came here asking u guys for help cause i know your the best of the best and think your input could really help. If both specs look like crap plz help me on finding the right path.

 

Suesse

Your new build seems pretty decent. I don't like improved bloodrage. I assume you're taking it so you can do something really quickly to get initial aggro. I might suggest improved sunder armor for these points.

Do you have a high-attendance dps warrior who can spec into full improved demo shout (so you can use CoR)? If you can find one, dropping your point in improved demo could help you elsewhere.

 

koclobster

I recently came across a shadow priest DPS flow chart while researching PVE DPS for my new 70 and I came to the conclusion that flow charts are awesome and informative as hell. So I have begun making one for tanking. I have split it into two parts tanking a trash mob vs tanking a boss. Now I know there are a lot of variable and I tried to include as many general ones as I could. This is a work in progress. Ill be working on the Boss side sometime this week or in a while after my break. Looking for criticism
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7078/tankingbi5.jpg

 

• Groghe

Your flowchart seems to be a bit broad in scope. It may be a bit more useful if you focus on illustrating the threat cycle and expand it from there. (If I’m reading it right, you also have the warrior doing nothing but Heroic Strike in high rage situations.)

 

koclobster

I started like that, but I just kept thinking of variables. I see this as helping someone who has never tanked with a real strategy to what moves they are using. I think as I worked on it more I just wanted to keep expanding it to make sure in almost all general situations you could look at where you are on the chart and know what the logical thing to do would be.

Yeah, I need to send the arrow to checking for sunders after the heroic strike queue. Thanks for that.

 

ALEXTREBEK

There are numerous mistakes concerning your flow chart, however I don't feel like listing all of them, but I will mention a major one that popped out to me: Your flow chart is basically saying that you should not be shield slamming, aside from the beginning of bloodrage + engagement, until you have five sunders stacked on your target.

Although I like the idea of a flowchart, it is probably better for you to devote your time to something else that is constructive for beginning warriors, especially with the tumultuous amount of variables that come hand-in-hand with tanking in WoW. GL though.

 

koclobster

Me and my other tank in the guild both agreed that we like to have our 5 sunders up for DPS then go into our rotation

 

◊ Fellwraith

Well this tank disagrees. In my guild, mages and warlocks do 1500-2k+ dps. They don't need sunders to go full bore, and they won't wait for 5 sunders before the open up (nor should they if max dps is your goal). If you don't land your initial shieldslam in that flow chart in my guild, you'd be screwed.

I'm not saying this to troll, but you need to understand that max tps is as important to maximizing your dps as getting 2 sunders 5 seconds sooner. Not every class benefits from sunder. The extra sunder benefits for at most 1-2 shieldslams and revenges are not a threat benefit vs using your cool-downs appropriately.

 

koclobster

I like the different opinions. I just want to make sure you know that trash mob and raid boss are different to me. I would agree full heartedly with your statement if I was fighting a boss. On a trash mob it usually dies before we ever have threat issues, and if we do a quick intervene taunt and its right back to me.

 

Zileas

This is NOT server latency.

this is the fact that wow servesr are multiple-processor machines

The bosses damage can end up on one processor, the heal on another, and the shield block on yet another.

they all say "okay, this goes", but dont notify each other in time... so the boss damage gets to fire the death on you because it hasnt heard from the other processors that have validated the shield block and heal, or conversely, they havent heard about the death and validate the heal and shield block anyway.

If wow servers ran on one box, tanking would be a lot easier. Many tanking points of failure, aside from generally not knowing what you are doing, seem to be related to this asyncrhonous server computation issue. It also is how warriors seem to get crushing blowed a much more frequent amount than one would otherwise expect.

 

Zileas

/agree

this is also why +hit and +expertise are really important. Early threat matters a lot, and is a lot harder to do properly than consistent threat assuming proper gear, misdirects, and salv. If you want to wait for 5 sunders you can, but why throttle your dps by 20 seconds in a 5 minute fight? That's a big loss on a gear check boss for progression. I'm sure we've all had lots of 2% wipes...

 

ALEXTREBEK

I must say, this was honestly a pretty enlightening post... and another reason to be irritated with Blizzard.

---

Anyways, back to the tanking flowchart. Although you may consider stacking five sunders on a mob before transferring into your general threat rotation the best way to keep threat on it, in reality it is not actually a very effective way of holding aggro in comparison to other methods (some of the more efffective of which are actually mentioned in the first post of this thread). Like I said before, I personally don't think there is any problem with you continuing the creation of your flowchart, as I know you mean it to be helpful to less experienced tanks, but I would highly recommend you at least revise a few of the less effective moves you would have your "flow-warrior" making. =)

 

koclobster

I know its not the best way to hold aggro, maybe its just some stupid habit we have to help out melee. But what less effective moves? Like Shield Bash?

 

ALEXTREBEK

Not Shield Bash, hehe. I was actually quite surprised you put that in there, as Shield Bash is not an ineffective move at all. However, an example of one of the less effective courses of action would be only having your Warrior queue up Heroic Strike in a higher rage situation.

 

koclobster

True, I guess with trash rage isnt as free flowing as a hard hitting boss. Thanks for the advice. The boss chart is going to be way too long

 

galzohar

Nice to finally have an explanation for the competely illogical processing order you see sometimes, like people sheeping/silencing eachother, people dying and getting heals afterwards, etc.

I never really believed it was internet lag, as stuff that get sent in a certain order, as far as I know, generally arrive in that same order, so it wouldn't explain those kinds of events. Especially when one cannot logically happen after the other like mutual silencing/stunning/etc or using shield wall and having the cooldown trigger after the death (you could verify that by looking at the killing blow and see if its damage was or wasn't modified by shield wall).

Anyway it seems those wierd occurances don't really have a noticeable effect on gameplay, as it doesn't look like you end up losing more than a couple fractions of a second in the worst case, although due to latency there is no way to verify how big the desync between the different processors is.

 

Anedris

Interestingly, it can happen in reverse too. We had one of our rogues get pasted for 20-something thousand damage just as Shahraz leashed, and the rogue was untouched and quite alive despite the hit showing up clearly in the combat log (and no, she doesn't have cheat death). (Seen this with vanish too where a "hit" is recorded but never lands.)