The Protection Warrior Guide - Page 54

Kannojo · 04/16/08, 11:31 AM

I believe its merely a 50% chance to dispell upon the shield slam landing or so I thought until I read the tooltip at wowhead a few minutes ago. It states:

"Slam the target with your shield, causing 420 to 440 damage, modified by your shield block value, and dispels 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a high amount of threat."

I swear I thought the ingame tooltip said 50% chance to dispell one magic effect however. I'll edit this after work when I have an oppurtunity to look.

KooZ · 04/16/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Kannojo

I believe its merely a 50% chance to dispell upon the shield slam landing or so I thought until I read the tooltip at wowhead a few minutes ago. It states:

"Slam the target with your shield, causing 420 to 440 damage, modified by your shield block value, and dispels 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a high amount of threat."

I swear I thought the ingame tooltip said 50% chance to dispell one magic effect however. I'll edit this after work when I have an oppurtunity to look.

was changed together with the devastate buff, 2.3 afaik.

littletoe · 04/16/08, 11:48 AM

I think everybody should take the legs at least if they are not already (or really soon) killing Brutallus. While T6 or Praetorian's are good, the massive expertise (and stamina) on the badge legs is worth the 100 badges.
I think a more complicated matter is still which old T6 piece to keep and whether the new cloak and neck are upgrades in any gear setup. They look nice with lots of stamina and so on, but slikk's has a ton of armor and deftness has hit with expertise.

The new shield seems to me marginally better than bulwark, pity it's so ugly.

We have yet to see the new trinket from M'uru and there is a small chance we'll get a new ring too. With three new healer rings available there should be a new tanking ring too.

No new ranged weapon in sight, although the throwing weapon from normal MgT is nice even if it's only an iLvl 115 blue

.

I disagree wearing the badge legs is not superior than T6 or Praetorian, if you want expertise for brutallus use the badge belt over the gurtogg. The legs have less AC, Avoidance and a tad more stamina, expertise is easy to stack.

The cloak and the neck piece in SP are ok, they have lots of stam and expertise which is great for bosses but you have to find a good balance, at least thats what I shoot for with my tanking gear. I cannot push myself to drop under 3% hit in my boss set.
So if someone finds a good way to implement those 2 pieces without gimping your hit percentage and not use the hit gems let me know.

Cheers
Lt

Bonesnap · 04/16/08, 12:35 PM

Been around here for quite a while and just read through the thread again, and a little thanks to all contributes to the great post is in order I think. Lots of interesting views and information in here.

I got into a debate regarding tauntmechanics with another tank yesterday him claiming taunt doing nothing when you currently are holding aggro on the mob. From what I've tested it does, but according to this post it shouldent either.

From the chapter on taunt mechanics:
"Your threat is increased to the level of the previous target of the mob that you are taunting. This is a permanent change. You do not gain the threat of players who might have more threat than the current tank. "

I do think that is wrong though, cause according to my expericne and a simple test I did on a mob now (only one mob,I'll make another longer test when I'm not busy making dinner :P), if your cureently holding aggor, and someone pulls ahead of you (without pulling aggro) a quick taunt puts you at the same level or threat as that person again.
This should perhaps be mentions somewhere if it isn't allready (read the thread but I might have missed it, it is 54 pages after all :P)

I Realize that the quote above can be interepeted in another way (or complementing way?) as well, that if you taunt a mob of somone else, you get the threat of the one currently holding aggro, but if you are holding aggro yourself you get the threat from the one currently holding max threat? I don't really see the logic in that mechanic but I guess there is some

For bosses, noone else using Free Action potions to get rid of the stun on demonphase for Kalecgos?

Kannojo · 04/16/08, 12:38 PM

Personally I don't use the belt over the Leotheras belt or old badge belt. As far as AC is concerned the badge pants are on par with praetorians. As far as avoidance is concerned don't be so quick to neglect the defense rating on the badge pants. The 43 defense net you 0.7271% chance to block/dodge/parry/be missed. To me that looks like more "avoidance" Not including block its:

0.7271%x3[dodge/parry/miss]=2.1813 "avoidance"

The dodge rating on the praetorian and badge pants are the same. This gives you more avoidance but its spread out a bit. I'm an HP whore as well but I banked my praetorian in favor of these. The ring was my favorite piece Ha! I love armor on rings. An extra 431.2 armor!!

Even after 5.60% to neglect parry/dodge Expertise is awesome. Whether you miss or are dodged/parried the end result is you don't hit the boss. Get a romulo's poison vial, kaz's shield or brooch.

littletoe · 04/16/08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Kannojo

Personally I don't use the belt over the Leotheras belt or old badge belt. As far as AC is concerned the badge pants are on par with praetorians. As far as avoidance is concerned don't be so quick to neglect the defense rating on the badge pants. The 43 defense net you 0.7271% chance to block/dodge/parry/be missed. To me that looks like more "avoidance" Not including block its:

0.7271%x3[dodge/parry/miss]=2.1813 "avoidance"

The dodge rating on the praetorian and badge pants are the same. This gives you more avoidance but its spread out a bit. I'm an HP whore as well but I banked my praetorian in favor of these. The ring was my favorite piece Ha! I love armor on rings. An extra 431.2 armor!!

Even after 5.60% to neglect parry/dodge Expertise is awesome. Whether you miss or are dodged/parried the end result is you don't hit the boss. Get a romulo's poison vial, kaz's shield or brooch.

T6 is still superior having a ton of raw agility and more well rounded balanced stats.
I would use badge legs over Praetorian legguards no question, I forgot to edit that out my mistake.
The only reason I still have Praetorian is for my stam set which I barely ever use anyway.

There's a big difference between missing and get parried, read up on parry haste mechanics. I never said expertise wasn't good, i'm just saying expertise is very easy to obtain. I think the belt is one of the best pieces to swap for expertise without gimping your mitigation/avoidance

I think I wasn't clear on my hit % concern it seems so here it goes again. I'm trying to keep my hit % high enough utilizing the best possible loot not a romulos poison vial and a kaz'rogal's shield. I have a TPS tanking set with tons of hit/expertise/bv thats not my issue.
Again the problem correlates to a warriors boss tanking set with the new SP items available, we are dipping dangerously low on to hit and are left with only one option "regemming".

ioguolo · 04/16/08, 1:16 PM

Kannojo your %'s are incorrect. Bosses dodge 6.5% and parry 14%. This is why expertise losses per point value once you reach the "dodge cap". 27 expertise gives you 6.75%.

If you download the tanking excel spreadsheet from the other thread you can play around with numbers there to get a setup needed.

tangent · 04/16/08, 1:20 PM

Why would you want to stack expertise on Brutallus? I drop expertise (bracers/neck) in favor of t6 bracers (used the ones from naj the first week) and the souls neck. Threat hasn't ever been an issue for us on brutallus (might be different if we didn't start with a bear). Like Mother and the bear boss in ZA he no doesn't gain a hasted attack when he parries one of your attacks so all you need to worry about is not dieing. More defense, dodge, and stam are going to help with this, more expertise is not.
Expertise is great for threat, and for bosses where parry gib is a concern.

Kannojo · 04/16/08, 1:38 PM

Ioguola I thought partial amounts of expertise did nothing ? Would you not need 28 Expertise to complete the dodge immunity if it is indeed 6.50%? The point in my original post was that to me it seems that expertise would be just as good as hit up until you're parry immune. Theres a certain amount of miss/dodge/parry on the table. Reducing either by any amount is just as useful but until dodge is off the table expertise is twice as effective as hit.

Also where is the 6.50% dodge coming from? Is this exaggerated from the previously accepted 5.60% because some bosses have more dodge? I read through the entire replies yesterday although I was looking entirely for something else and may not have caught this.

PS. Don't reply to the 6.50% dodge thing. I'm looking at the warrior spreadsheet thread and intend to sift through it unless its not noted somewhere.

ioguolo · 04/16/08, 2:59 PM

The problem is these threads are so old that even the original post hasn't been updated with information discovered. The 1st page of this thread still says 5.6% however it has been apparently found that it is 6.5% I'm in the same boat as you though, "show me the math", and right now I can't find the info. However it's in the excel spreedsheet as saying "updated %'s after EJ forum findings". I myself have not gone through every page of these posts so I can only speculate that it has something to do with "X amount of expertise and still being dodged".

If someone can show me and others the light on the math, I'd be a happy tank. I've also seen many posts by people that say "omg haven't you gone through the 700 page post on this?" and never simply link the thread or page. In short I still haven't found the magic number post.

galzohar · 04/16/08, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by Bonesnap

Been around here for quite a while and just read through the thread again, and a little thanks to all contributes to the great post is in order I think. Lots of interesting views and information in here.

I got into a debate regarding tauntmechanics with another tank yesterday him claiming taunt doing nothing when you currently are holding aggro on the mob. From what I've tested it does, and that's pretty much how I've been relying on building threat on kalecgos, but according to this post it shouldent either.

From the chapter on taunt mechanics:
"Your threat is increased to the level of the previous target of the mob that you are taunting. This is a permanent change. You do not gain the threat of players who might have more threat than the current tank. "

I do think that is wrong though, cause according to my expericne and a simple test I did on a mob now (only one mob,I'll make another longer test when I'm not busy making dinner :P), if your cureently holding aggor, and someone pulls ahead of you (without pulling aggro) a quick taunt puts you at the same level or threat as that person again.
This should perhaps be mentions somewhere if it isn't allready (read the thread but I might have missed it, it is 54 pages after all :P)

I Realize that the quote above can be interepeted in another way (or complementing way?) as well, that if you taunt a mob of somone else, you get the threat of the one currently holding aggro, but if you are holding aggro yourself you get the threat from the one currently holding max threat? I don't really see the logic in that mechanic but I guess there is some

For bosses, noone else using Free Action potions to get rid of the stun on demonphase for Kalecgos?

I'd say just try again... Grab aggro on some random mob using only damage moves so you know your exact threat. Let a ranged DPSer with known threat modifiers deal damage until he reaches 125% of your threat, at which point both of you should no longer be attacking anymore. Taunt, and after that let him generate that last 5% threat. If he pulled aggro, the main post is correct and you are wrong.

An example to clarify (apply modifiers for stance and for the DPSer that is testing for these numbers):
You deal 1000 damage
DPSer deals 1250 damage
You taunt
DPSer deals 51 damage
If DPSer pulled aggro you were just proven wrong. If he didn't pull aggro, you just discovered something that wasn't known so far - but I doubt you'll get to that point, if it does happen make sure your test was done properly first

Bonesnap · 04/16/08, 6:25 PM

Did a bit more testing during the night and its indeed correct as you say and the threat is not gaind from taunting when holding aggro. Even though Omen (wich is why I started to belive it might be that way) implies that it does. But its indeed only omen displayng it wrong. Gonna head over to wowace and see if there's anything about it over there. Cause an taunt by mistake during tanking on tauntable bosses could screw up the threatnumbers quite bad if there's a dps abusing the 10%/30% window to pull agro. Can hopefully get that fixed in Omen soon enough.

Quite glad its the case though would be quite lazy tanking on bosses you could taunt if not ^^

Kannojo · 04/16/08, 6:59 PM

With the advent of 2.4 and the revamping of the combat log I think alot of combat log parsing addons got fairly screwed up. We began using omen because personally I like it better. It's more customizable, sleeker look, alot of additional functionality that I felt KLH Threat meter was lacking.Post patch however it seems to not register much of anything from some people and for others it seemed to work fine. I can't say with 100% certainty that people don't know how to install addons. Quite frankly there would be alot more to worry about other than any ingame situation.However the functional feedback from the mod seemed to vary for each person. As if the mod wasn't combing the combat log entirely correct or perhaps the synching wasn't taking place like it's supposed to?

Now it seems as though KTM has some issues as well. I don't think its picking up complete logs of everything either. For example last night on azgalor this hunter was surging pretty rapidly. Feigned death and his threat went to 0 because it clears his threat. He's starts attacking again and immediately following his rotation azgalor turns to run after him. I seen the drop in threat on KTM as well. Perhaps its not picking up resists? Anyone else having some similiar problems? It seems to be current (21.12) from what i can tell at curse. Also I receive a peculiar error each time I taunt something or reacquire focus. Any feedback or alternative solutions regarding KLH TM or Omen ?

All in all KLH TM has worked better although not really up to snuff nor has it been accurate to an extent of my liking.

innocent · 04/17/08, 3:21 AM

We had some issue lately in my guild with prot warriors whining about how much thay cant dps on event that doesnt need more than one tank.
I do strongly believe that with a descent fury gear you can actually pull some damages. And an extra prot warrior are viable on Archimonde, Teron, Morogrim, Solarian, Zul'Jin or whatever singletarget tank events.
You dont have to change the raid comp, nor your spec or stick with one MT war + ferals.

This is my test on Najentus yesterday. The toon is an alt (I play shaman) and way undergeared compared to the T6 geared other 24.
Basicly I favorise Whirlwind than spam devastate. Landing heroic strike when rage is enought (most likely every swing on Naj).
I have a +30 str pot, sharp stone on off hand, str food and thats about it.

note:
Biaf is SP but... had a very funny problem for the first 2 hours.
Din died stupidly because she is a she irl ^^

Spuddelkopf · 04/17/08, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by innocent

Din died stupidly because she is a she irl ^^

I don't quite see how dying stupidly is connected with being a girl/woman ... My girlfriend plays a warlock and is usually nr. 1 for dmg in our guild runs (2nd being me and 3rd or at least 4th another woman, who also does the raid lead and does so very very well)

But to say somethin on topic: In fights I don't need to tank (like Shade of Aran or sometimes as a second tank. My warrior twink only visits Kara yet), I also use my dmg equip (I must admit, weapons are quite good: Dragonstrike and Breeching Comet) and end up being one of the first if not even sometimes the very first in dmg for that fight. This dmg meter standing would probably change in later instances but I, too, think that prot warriors can put out some considerable DPS if they have 3/3 Focussed Rage and 3/3 improved SA.

Kannojo · 04/17/08, 12:05 PM

Is there an alternative or updated version of the WWS threat calculator ? The previous was

Coolyo[dot]org

However its not functioning properly.. I can't even submit the URL for my WWS parse. It might be the DoD network I'm on I suppose

.

jozga · 04/17/08, 12:31 PM

Is there an alternative or updated version of the WWS threat calculator ?

Coolyo still works fine for me.

We had some issue lately in my guild with prot warriors whining about how much thay cant dps on event that doesnt need more than one tank.

I think it's already been shown many times that prot warriors can put out medium to high DPS, I think the highest I have seen in my guild was ~1600 (on Kaz'rogal) and more is certainly possible.

littletoe · 04/17/08, 1:10 PM

Any fight where you have a steady influx of rage will make the prot warrior a viable dps alternative.
Najentus, Kaz, Az, Teron, Ros, Kalecgos etc ...
I personally use Crusader on both my weapons when I DW since I have vitality and x 2 procs is quite a significant increase in min-max dmg.

Cheers
LT

• Whiteknight · 04/17/08, 2:28 PM

Protection dps is fine, provided you have access to proper gear. A while ago Natural did the experiment on Teron gorefiend and produced around 1900 dps.

2.4 Details, as they arrive

galzohar · 04/17/08, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteknight

Protection dps is fine, provided you have access to proper gear. A while ago Natural did the experiment on Teron gorefiend and produced around 1900 dps.

2.4 Details, as they arrive

I woudln't call this "fine", it's borderline overpowered

If holy paladins / disc priests / resto shamans could put up such numbers imagine what bitching would go around.

Punscho · 04/17/08, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by ioguolo

The problem is these threads are so old that even the original post hasn't been updated with information discovered. The 1st page of this thread still says 5.6% however it has been apparently found that it is 6.5% I'm in the same boat as you though, "show me the math", and right now I can't find the info. However it's in the excel spreedsheet as saying "updated %'s after EJ forum findings". I myself have not gone through every page of these posts so I can only speculate that it has something to do with "X amount of expertise and still being dodged".

If someone can show me and others the light on the math, I'd be a happy tank. I've also seen many posts by people that say "omg haven't you gone through the 700 page post on this?" and never simply link the thread or page. In short I still haven't found the magic number post.

The old weapon skill thread had a parse from a tank ([Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion) suggesting higher than 5.6% dodge (6 or so) and a parry rating in the range of 12-13%. Assuming dodge is 6.5% (0.5% per level) it's not hard to at least imagine twice the parry rate at 13%. My own parses (although smaller) could just aswell support the 6.5% theory.

I've not done the math on those parses but I don't think the numbers support 5.6% more than 6.5%. And if people claim 5.6% I'd like to see non ancient parses supporting that.

I can't recall seeing the expertise approach to finding the dodge/parry caps but I can imagine some rogue pinning down the dodge in one of those threads.

galzohar · 04/17/08, 6:04 PM

Since it's possible to get 6% dodge reduction it shouldn't be too hard to check - if dodge is 6.5% the chance for absolutely no dodges to happen within 1000 swings is less than 1% which means you can be pretty certain the boss dodge higher than 6% or not after a few boss fights done while wearing 6% dodge reduction. Even if bosses had 6.1% dodge, when wearing 6% dodge reduction the chance for no dodges to happen within 1000 swings is ~37%, less than 5% with 3000 swings and less than 1% with 5000 swings.

So it shouldn't take all that much experimentation to get the actual dodge values for bosses, at least as accurate as the expertise "jumps" go.

◊ Quigon · 04/18/08, 2:30 AM