Arindelest

Oh right, I'm sorry: I didn't see the latest update to that math, I read the earlier incorrect posting.

 

Dorvan

Compared to what I thought was the default 41/20/0 PvE Mut spec you're not giving up Imp KS, but rather 3/5 Imp Poisons. Now if you're running WF/DP then arguably the DPS loss will be minimal, but that also depends on how much "in and out" there is on the fight. So you're looking at giving up some DPS on the majority of fights to improve DPS on the one or two fights where you're probably not going to be Mutilate if you're really concerned about your DPS anyway.

Of course quantifying the effect of 3/5 Imp Poisons would make it a lot easier to see what kind of tradeoff is being made here, but to say that you're giving up nothing from a PvE standpoint just isn't correct as far as I can tell.

 

Professor Hurt

I think the standard mutilate build is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft as outlined on Rogue builds - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft. I know there is discussion elsewhere on this forum debating the benefits of Imp Poi, which is why I think it's optional in Mutilate builds, not required.

 

Dorvan

Given that the DPS contribution of Imp KS in a PvE raid setting is zero, while the contribution of Imp Poisons is something more than that, I'm willing to say that wowwiki is simply off the mark on that one (it'd hardly be the first time for wowwiki). I just don't see how any analysis of the effectiveness of Imp Backstab can be conclusive without measuring against the tradeoff of the best available alternative.

 

• Latito

Also note that that WoWWiki build missed Imp SS. While SS is certainly not a skill you should be using often, sometimes you are forced to attack from the front. Considering a 1.5 sec gouge nets you 0 dps in a raid.. and dodge is just a complete filler talent, I'd pick it up for the rare times you do use it.

WoWWiki tends to cater more to the average or casual player. Imp Gouge and Imp KS are useful for farming and solo play as those are useful moves for an "attack from behind" rogue.

 

Ozzmar

Something more than zero? Yes. Worth making a fuss over? I can't see it.

I could be completely playing my rogue wrong, but I never just run right up to a boss mob and start a Mutilate cycle (unless a hunter shot has a poison on it already). If it's a fresh fight, and I need poisons, I see three options:

- Mutilate with no poison, hoping it will proc one
- Auto attack until a poison procs, then Mutilate
- Shiv, then start your cycle

Personally, I choose the latter. It gets Slice and Dice going quickly, and ensures a poison application for my first Mutilate. It's totally possible that having points invested in Improved Poisons could make the first option a more intelligent choice than what I do - I honestly have no clue how to even begin determining that. But, this method works well, and it makes any points in Improved Poisons redundant as those talents only serve to refresh your DP stack once you've reached 5 (which I have no problems doing anyway, even with 0 points in Improved Poisons).

I could just be talking out of my ass, and you're free to tell me that if you think that's the case. However, I personally think this quibbling over 3 points in Improved Poisons is hair-splitting at best. We're examining an alternative use for those 3 points that could potentially make Mutilate rogues *less* worthless against bosses like Void Reaver and Hydross vs. 3 points in Improved Poisons that potentially become useless in EVERY fight (by that I mean, when your DP stack reaches 5, or if the boss itself is immune). The choice seems painfully obvious to me...

 

drumbum

This is another question worth talking about. Which hand do you personally use deadly poison on? Your armory shows you with a 1.4 offhand dagger. This would naturally imply that your offhand would hit a fair amount more than your mainhand, since Mutilate's attacks trigger procs on both hands.

My question is: Can you sustain a deadly poison stack with a 1.8 mainhand dagger, a 1.8 offhand dagger, and/or a 1.4 offhand dagger? Can all three be done without any poisons in Improved Poisons or Master Poisoner? Can they be done with 5/5 Improved Poisons?

I'd be happy with anecdotal evidence for this. Naturally the worst case scenario would be deadly on a 1.8 offhand dagger without Improved Poisons or Master Poisoner. How much hit/haste do you need for this to work?

Edit: I did a little napkin math and it looks like a 1.8 offhand procs poisons AT LEAST as often as a 1.5 offhand would with a combat build. Here's how I calculated it:

For combat builds, only white attacks are proccing the offhand poison, so assuming 100% SND uptime, the attacks per second is:

• (1/1.5) * 1.3 = 0.8666 swings per second

For mutilate, you are also getting a yellow attack once per 6 seconds, so:

• (1/1.8) * 1.3 + (1/6) = 0.8888 swings per second

Plus the yellow attacks actually have a higher chance to land anyway. So my conclusion is that even a 1.8 offhand SHOULD be able to sustain a stack of deadly poison, assuming that 1.5 offhand can do so in a combat build (which I think is generally accepted as true).

Perhaps this was obvious to some, but I just wanted to actually demonstrate it mathematically instead of making assumptions, especially since maintaining a poison stack is considerably more important in a mutilate build.

 

Ozzmar

[Just for clarification for Drumbum]

Taboo as it typically is, I Deadly Poison both of my daggers. We generally only have 1-2 shaman in our raids (stupid Alliance anyway), and they're both Elemental spec and wind up with casters.

Of course this makes me think less of Improved Poisons as a whole, but even still, I'd use a single Shiv with DP on my offhand even if I had a shaman in my group.

 

drumbum

Why wouldn't you use instant poison on one of your daggers? Do you regularly use Envenom in your cycle?

 

Ozzmar

Good question...

Having just re-rolled and hit 70 a couple weeks ago, I'm mostly just running heroics and Kara, with the occasional Gruul's. But yea, if I happen to get a big lucky string of Ruthlessness procs and 3-point Mutilates, I'll throw an Envenom in there if energy and other factors allow (plenty of time left on SnD, Rupture, etc). IP is probably a good idea though - I'll try that next time we hit Gruul's.

[Keep in mind, I'm not -really- min/maxing at this point as I'm still gearing up and pvping pretty frequently to earn some upgrades. I'm not the best rogue to be examining as a good example. ]

 

Professor Hurt

At this point, this is my exact mentality. Proving 3/5 in Imp Poi doesn't come into play in my test anyway - Imp Backstab vs Mutilate against an unpoisoned mob. Does it come into play in other cases? Yes, but why talk about those until we can actually prove that Imp Backstab is better than Mutilate? If we can prove that, that's when we start discussion on what other ramifications there are of using backstab, such as we've already done. If we can't prove it, or at least cast a big enough shadow of doubt, then there is really no reason to factor in the benefits of Imp Poi as we already know what the answer will be.

So in my opinion, it's much too early to start factoring in the benefits of a skill that doesn't immediately pertain to my specific test case (not irrelevant, just too early).

 

• Bluefish

Name a fight this occurs in often enough to mention where there's no chance of tank death -- if there's any chance of that, you don't attack from the front, period. Gibbing your tank with parry-haste helps no one.

I can't think of any, so spending 2 talent points for something that probably equates to 0 DPS over the course of an evening, over a useful PvP / 5-man / Hyjal talent or a touch more survivability, seems like a poor idea to me. You always have Shiv, which will never be wasted unless you've got a 5-stack of DP up already.

Imp KS is very noticeable on SSC / Hyjal trash, and also in the Kael fight (weapons).

 

hannigaholic

Leotheras the Blind - when you have to kill your Inner Demon it helps a lot having talented SS. Considering the first tier talents in Combat are basically all filler talents it makes more sense for a raiding build to take 2/2 Improved SS than 2 points in any of the other options,

 

Professor Hurt

On unpoisoned mutilate vs backstab:
I helped some friends through a non-heroic Arc run last night. While not a great test, it's better than nothing

I stuck with my rule that I'd only use backstab on an unpoisoned mob, and use Mutilate on a poisoned one. My findings were similar to our math: I did ~230 more dmg on average per backstab than mutilate (this is factoring in Find Weakness as I used my finishers regularly). If Mutilate generates ~1.5 times the amount of CPs as using backstab, and we put them all toward Eviscerates, it would take roughly 32 eviscerates to make up the damage gain by using backstab. Historically, I've used a max of 20 Eviscerates against Hydross (who is poison/bleed immune), which means backstab would, in theory, result in a fair DPS gain over Mutilate.

We're trying Void Reaver tonight so I'll have a good test bed from that.

On OH weapon selection:

I've read the Rogue Theorycrap post about how offhand speed really doesn't gimp your Mutilate damage by much at all (several percentage at worst). On the flip side, a faster OH will increase your poison application chances which possibly balances out the difference in straight damage. However, it's my opinion the Roguecraft 101 thread isn't quite specific enough in its recommendation for Mutilate OHs so I'm trying to search out more answers.

I currently use a Malchazeen for my OH. Upgrades within my grasp are are Merciless Shiv, Heartrazor, or something from ZA. Popping the Shiv and Heartrazor in the DPS spreadsheet, it finds that the Shiv is better by ~3 DPS, which surprised me a little. Then for a more direct DPS/stat comparison, I popped in the Vengeful Shiv and Mutilator. The Shiv came out ~4 DPS ahead.

So either the DPS spreadsheet doesn't properly value Mutilate OHs, or for some reason a faster OH is still the better choice for all rogues, mutilate included (assuming DPS is equal). I still had this idea in my head that Mutilate slightly favored a slower, harder hitting dagger, but was my thinking incorrect, or does the spreadsheet misinterpret the value of OH speed for Mutilate builds?

In my case, should I trust the spreadsheet and go with the Shiv or wait for the next 1.8 to drop?

 

• Latito

Exactly. I'm not saying Imp SS is some amazing talent for a dagger build.. but its not like imp gouge or some dodge is a must-have either.

Uses for SS as daggers:
Gruul when his backside is covered by cavein
Mag if you get bounced in front (hit evasion, quick!)
Leo on Inner Demons
Lurker, unless you run around the platform during spout
Solarian can be a bit annoying moving around constantly, but workable I w/o I'm sure
Supremus occasionally has fire behind him, although usually workable
Gurtogg during Fel Rage (Unless I'm remembering wrong and somehow shiv is more dps...)
And... pretty much every AoE trash pack, of which there are several in all instances (save Mag/Gruul).

Either way.. the advantages of a cheaper SS or 2% dodge is basically nothing.

 

Dontmindme

You still have offhand poison procs. A slower offhand will lower the number of these or the frequency of the refresh. This is obviously weighed against the increased damage from the use of Mutilate itself. 3 or 4 DPS is pretty close, much closer than any other build would be with such a slow offhand.

I'm assuming you are using DP offhand. I'm hoping to remodel deadly poison in the next update. This may change things although given the suspicion that the DPS spreadsheet currently somewhat undervalues DP, it will probably increase the gap rather than lessen it. Although you never know until it happens...

 

Professor Hurt

Yes I am and always do in PvE even without a Shaman. I knew that the increased poison app chances with a faster offhand could outweigh the damage range decrease of a faster offhand, it just surprised me that all things equal, a faster offhand is better for Mutilate (at least as defined in the spreadsheet). I'm sure trying to model this comparison (and mutilate in general) properly is incredibly difficult, so I think I'll just assume that for Mutilate, ignoring speed and focusing on DPS and weapon stats is a wise choice.

Just for the heck of it I switched out my OH poison in the spreadsheet to Anesthetic. The slower, harder hitting weapon was preferred every time when DPS was close/the same (Vengeful weapons and Merciless Shiv vs Heartrazor). Seems to make sense to me.

Random question for Dontmindme: do you think the Heartrazor's proc is properly calculated?

 

Dontmindme

Actually, I have my own questions about all the procs on the sheet. I've just been going over Deadly Poison and it's seriously mismodeled. In fact, it looks to be significantly overvalued (which makes your assertion that slower weapons being better for Mutilate almost certainly true).

Heartrazor seems to be currently modeled as having proc up 1/9th (30 ap/270 ap) of the time which seems rather undervalued unless we are talking about a 0.5 ppm proc.

Doing a quick search of the forums, I see no data on Heartrazor proc rates. It appears at one time, someone valued it as 50 ap in the mainhand which was later reduced to 30 ap. Basically, your guess is as good as mine. With no data, it appears to be just guesswork, but I'm inclined to believe it's proc is undervalued.

 

• Bluefish

Not really. Have you read the rest of this thread?
http://elitistjerks.com/596093-post114.html

As opposed to what? Ducking into the water and doing 0 DPS? Versus doing near-100% of it? With Fleet Footed you'd have to be an utter noob to fail the runaround.

You move around her.

Imp SS would be superior here.

Assuming you're doing these at the points in progression where they belong, you don't DPS from the front in these fights. Every time one of your attacks is parried, the mob gets its next attack hasted by 40%. Any attack risks the parry that kills your tank.

You take the same target as the rest of the melee DPS and Expose it, or you just Muti + Evis/Env after the mob is poisoned. Since the white / yellow ratio skews towards yellow when you have to be rapidly swapping targets, it would be silly to play like an inferior Combat Rogue. Play to your strengths.

2% dodge is not basically nothing -- it's a quantifiable and not-insignificant increase in your survivability. I believe cheaper SS *is* basically nothing. The number of situations in which you're about to cap your energy, forced to attack from the front, should attack even though you risk parry haste, and have a 5-stack of Deadly Poison running are staggeringly small, and the benefit you gain by having Imp SS even if that situation *does* crop up is minimal.

 

Professor Hurt

We hit VR and Solarian last night so I got a fairly good set of results:

Overall:
Backstab - 249 resulting in 321914 dmg, or 1292.8 avg
Mutilate - 332 resulting in 321615 dmg, or 968.7 avg per hand

Converting to unpoisoned:
Backstab - 1292.8
Mutilate - (968.7 * 2) / 1.5 = 1291.6

These results confuse me a bit since they don't match our napkinmath (but do match my first set of data). On top of that, check out my crit numbers:

Backstab - 54%
Mutilate - 31%

My base crit % is 24.x, so I would expect to see backstab a bit higher than it is (due to raid buffs and mongoose procs), and would not expect to see Mutilate so high in relation. This perceived increase in crit to Mutilate is consistent with all of my data (I went back to check), and backstab is always a bit lower than I'd expect.

Am I missing something? Could it be that Mutilate simply triggers more crits/procs/trinkets/etc because it actually is a double attack on one single button? That seems like a stretch, but there must be more to this than I'm factoring in.

On a side note, I did finish #2 on the damage meters on Void Reaver behind our sword rogue (well, 100k dmg less than). I used backstab exclusively.

 

Ozzmar

I'm no math whiz, but isn't 2 bosses kind of a small data set if you're concerned about analyzing crit percentage? There's no WWS, so I can't be sure, but in a mere two boss fights, a lucky crit string could skew results pretty badly.

 

Professor Hurt

It was a full raid night of ~3 hours. Two tries on VR, four tries on Solarian (my guild's first tries on both), plus all trash.

Sure, not the most spectacular set of data, but not just 25 minutes of boss fights.

 

Ozzmar

Oooh, gotcha. I just assumed that from your statement of "We hit VR and Solarian last night".

Regarding your high Mutilate crit rating, could it possibly be due to Cold Blood? I know the general rule is that a CB Mutilate is better than a CB Eviscerate. Similarly, I doubt you (or any rogue worth his salt) would ever blow CB on a Backstab.

That wouldn't make much difference on a boss fight, but 1 3-minute cooldown can be used pretty frequently on the elf trash in there. Just a thought.

 

Waldar

Imp. SS is also usefull for dagger builds against Kael'Thas.

You do more DPS with legendary sword mh / regular OH than with legendary dagger MH / any oh (due to the %speed of the sword who is almost always up).
I was only equipping the dagger to shiv ppl around me if our assigned warrior was mind controled (and using my regular OH after, for better combat potency procs).

Imp. SS is also decent for farming on aggro situation, just put a sword / mace in MH, pop BF and slaughter everything.


For Leotheras, just pop BF while backstabbing him.
Sure you still may be unlucky and have inner demons twice, in which case BF is'nt up, but they are gougeable / stunnable so it's still very doable with backstabbing.

 

Kasi

Umm, maybe I'm missing something, but in a thread about mutilate rogues in raids, why would a rogue in such a situation have blade flurry?