[Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion - Page 11

Cyn · 01/13/08, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Is it still 4+ finishers with priority on keeping SnD/Rupture up? Or is there something else that's taken over?

Essentially yes.

SnD -> Rupture, Evis if energy will cap out before SnD runs out, letting find weakness run out when SnD will be your next finisher, as it doesn't benefit from FW and using it as late as possible, then trying to make sure all moves until the next SnD fall within find weakness, saving the finisher for as late as possible in the find weakness of the move before it, without energy capping

Achillion · 01/13/08, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by Achillion

Ah yeah I was wondering about this but was too lazy to do the math (plus I'm not sure exactly how it all works):

Is 3 point Rupture with FW more or less damage than 5 point Rupture without FW?

I've been playing Mutilate from the moment I could get the talent and I'm only now starting to get the hang of a proper cycle.

To answer my own question (pls correct me if I'm wrong):

Assuming 2000 AP and no other rupture buffs

5 point rupture without FW = 1000 + 24% * 2000 = 1480

3 point rupture with FW = 618 + 24% * 2000 = 1098 + (1098 * 10%) = 1207

So 3 point rupture with find weakness is 273 damage less than a 5 point without FW. In fact a 4 point rupture with FW is still 1405, still 75 dmg less than an unbuffed rupture (at 2000 Attack Power).
So if you've got FW ticking off and you're about to rupture, should you rupture with less than 5 CP and buff it with FW or let FW fade and just go for the full 5 CP finisher?
A 5 finisher would also give a 100% relentless, but the time you waste getting up there might be better spent building up the next finisher once you've ruptured with 3 CP. This is where I get lost. Is doing a lower dmg finisher worth it for the sake of not wasting time building it up? Is it more DPS efficient to go for a lower grade finisher and compensate the DPS loss with what you will be doing after you finish?

Azsh · 01/14/08, 1:39 AM

Originally Posted by lumen

Since I am at a relatively low gear level compared to most of the posters here, I was really hesitant to post at all. But I've been scumming on this thread for while now, since this topic comes up over and over again in my game play.

Heh, same here, long time lurker, first time poster.

Despite my similar low level gear and lack of TBC high end game experience, I have been very enthusiastic about mutilate since I first spec'd it back in Naxxramas days (before I xferred my rogue to my new druids server). Coming from combat daggers through MC/BWL etc, it was a breath of fresh air not to be stuck with the stodgy old cycle and it was a fairly rewarding spec on the DPS charts (totally anecdotal of course ; ).

The problem, as I see it, is that spec'ing mutilate adds a lot of talents than can vary wildly depending on the type of fight and any calculations or theorycraft are going to be completely irrelevant unless you model each specific type of fight. = \

That is, with such variables as poison immunity, in/out fights, fights with heavy amounts of splash damage to melee, fights requiring split targeting etc, can mutilate truly be evaluated objectively rather than subjectively? Short of turning out a WWS for each boss fight with 1 muti spec and 1 combat swords spec, I don't think there is a way to effectively theorycraft this.

Further, given the variable nature of fights and how some talents can be completely invalidated depending on the fight or raid composition (Imp EA, poison based talents including mutilate itself, fleet footed, Imp KS), does mutilate start too far behind combat swords for the fights where it can be used to full advantage to bring it up to par?

Sry for the lack of anything approaching solid theorycraft here, I just find it really hard to form a concept worth quantifying in regards to mutilate. I like it, I see myself performing well on the DPS charts but I'd hard pressed to explain exactly why...

hannigaholic · 01/14/08, 6:58 AM

Originally Posted by Dontmindme

Clearly you are ignoring what has been said.

Not at all. I don't see how I've given that impression but it wasn't my intention.

I think I've explained pretty well how the spreadsheet is modeling the cycles. As best I can tell, it is choosing the correct cycles. These are the cycles people tend to be using. The expected DPS is in the range of where it seems it should be given that some very good rogues have tried Mutilate at high level raiding and found it somewhat lacking vs. combat swords.

You have indeed. The main point I was trying to make is that the sheet sometimes recommend an SnD cut for Combat-based cycles and never at all for the Mutilate cycles. If, as you claim, the proc-based nature of Mutilate cycles is not a factor then what is it that makes the sheet capable of recommending a cut sometimes and incapable other times?

In short, what is it that makes Combat-based cycles immune to this phenomenon?

Anyway, you're right, it's a relatively minor issue and we should probably just leave it here before this starts to look like a personal argument. I just wanted to make sure that my main issues weren't being overlooked.

--edit--

Originally Posted by Achillion

To answer my own question (pls correct me if I'm wrong):

Assuming 2000 AP and no other rupture buffs

5 point rupture without FW = 1000 + 24% * 2000 = 1480

3 point rupture with FW = 618 + 24% * 2000 = 1098 + (1098 * 10%) = 1207

Rupture gains the following AP% at each CP

1CP: 4%
2CP: 10%
3CP: 18%
4CP: 21%
5CP: 24%

so your 3r with FW would do 1.1 * (618 + (18% * 2000) ) = 1076

Rupture - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (though I took the numbers from a post by Aldriana some time ago)

Karmon · 01/14/08, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by hannigaholic

[..]
The main point I was trying to make is that the sheet sometimes recommend an SnD cut for Combat-based cycles and never at all for the Mutilate cycles.
[..]

This is due to the fact that the SnD-Cut cycles are not modeled for Mutilate builds.
If you care to look at the cycle sheets you will find that the first 60 rows are used exclusive for combat cycles and the
other 180 rows are exclusive used for the mutilate cycles.

The anomaly of mutilate DPS with regards to changing talent points (most notably Imp.SnD) is due to an averaging of
the possible cycles.
If you look at the row s 213/214, 228/229 and 243/244 you will see that this computes an average of the cycles that lie within 10% of the top DPS cycle.
These averages are then propagated back to the Unbuffed/BuffedDPs sheets (via row 199)

What happens if you deselect Imp. Snd is that the other cycles fall outside the 10% margin; essential no averaging takes place an you see a higher DPS.

Achillion · 01/14/08, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by hannigaholic

Rupture gains the following AP% at each CP

1CP: 4%
2CP: 10%
3CP: 18%
4CP: 21%
5CP: 24%

so your 3r with FW would do 1.1 * (618 + (18% * 2000) ) = 1076

Rupture - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (though I took the numbers from a post by Aldriana some time ago)

I knew I shouldn't be doing this stuff unattended

gbmaia · 01/14/08, 11:43 AM

So, can anyone summarize what was told here ?
maybe updating the initial post or creating a new one with consolidated ideas.

Grunge · 01/14/08, 10:10 PM

This is yesterday's Teron.
Prot Warrior instead of our usual Fury (Ie no Sapphiron's/Improved Battleshout I think), Elixir of Major Agility.
Me, Vaim, Daiwo, Abradix, Cele in Melee group. Welt was chillaxing in Tank group.

I did fuck up my cycles a bit before the end and probably would've end in the 1750-1780mark otherwise (was hovering around 1815 before that though).

Another thing I did was use Drape+Zerak over my standard Dory's+Ancient Amani Bow. I just can't decide between -armor and other stats.

Edit: Now looking at the wws, I notice quite a lucky streak there. Then again with raid buffs and Major Agility I was running at 41.xx% crit without mongo/ashtongue procs. *shrug*

ekval · 01/14/08, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Grunge

Edit: Now looking at the wws, I notice quite a lucky streak there. Then again with raid buffs and Major Agility I was running at 41.xx% crit without mongo/ashtongue procs. *shrug*

Was fun Mutilating :P

Grunge · 01/14/08, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by ekval

Was fun Mutilating :P

Any chance of WWS reports of any fights, preferably Teron/Rage/Anatheron/Kazrogal with lucky sleeps/D&D etc?

ekval · 01/15/08, 3:18 AM

Originally Posted by Grunge

Any chance of WWS reports of any fights, preferably Teron/Rage/Anatheron/Kazrogal with lucky sleeps/D&D etc?

http://elitistjerks.com/596617-post119.html

Gonna raid tomorrow raid with 41/20 spec hopefully to get some benchmark values due it is quite hard to compare other peoples WWS to mine. I mostly stayed in same spot at meters with 43/0/18 than I've been with Combat Swords earlier.

Ozzmar · 01/15/08, 9:50 AM

Ekval,

I was checking your Armory, and had a question about your gemming. Roguecraft 101 is lacking in a good section about Mutilate gemming, and all the recent discussion about hit tables and crit and hit contributing equally to your white damage had made me question the value of the conventional x Agi / x Hit rating gems that are so highly valued for Combat and Hemo specs.

Are your gem choices from a previous Combat spec? If so, would you regem for Mutilate differently? And (if you had an inifinite cash flow), would you go for more crit and Agility-based gems while keeping your hit high enough to keep your Mutilates hitting?

Neshalin · 01/15/08, 11:15 AM

At least at high gear levels, agility is the most powerful gemmable stat for Mutilate, according to both the rogue dps spreadsheet and simulations I've run. Roughly: agility 1, hit rating 0.9, crit rating 0.8, 2x attack power 0.9. That would make 10 agility the best for red sockets and 5 agility / 5 hit the best for yellow. However, most guilds reserve Crimson Spinels for their casters. Glinting Pyrestone is probably the best option and even works fine for regular combat builds.

ekval · 01/15/08, 11:58 AM

Most of my PvE gear gemming is relics from Combat spec yes. If I would now gem for my spec (43/0/18), I'd go 20AP for red sockets, 10AP 5crit on yellow ones due Serrated Blades and the fact that I already have quite high crit chance in raid situations. With Combat variation probably 10agi red, 5agi 5hit on yellow or so. DPS Spreadsheet shows 1xAP as 0.55-0.60 for my gear/spec. I don't really need the crit or defensive stats from agility anymore due high crit rates so AP is better, and it benefits my really high Rupture uptime alot.

Its just really hard to change gems atm, we have huge queue on crimson spinels for starters and the fact that we only raid 2 days a week in BT/Hyjal combined, and therefore the gem drops are limited compared to wipefest runs before farm status.

Grunge · 01/15/08, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by ekval

Most of my PvE gear gemming is relics from Combat spec yes. If I would now gem for my spec (43/0/18), I'd go 20AP for red sockets, 10AP 5crit on yellow ones due Serrated Blades and the fact that I already have quite high crit chance in raid situations. With Combat variation probably 10agi red, 5agi 5hit on yellow or so. DPS Spreadsheet shows 1xAP as 0.55-0.60 for my gear/spec. I don't really need the crit or defensive stats from agility anymore due high crit rates so AP is better, and it benefits my really high Rupture uptime alot.

Its just really hard to change gems atm, we have huge queue on crimson spinels for starters and the fact that we only raid 2 days a week in BT/Hyjal combined, and therefore the gem drops are limited compared to wipefest runs before farm status.

When we ran low on red's we changed our raiding schedule to Wednesday+Monday and clearing Hyjal+upto Mother on Wednesday, allowing people to do trash farm runs (everything was rolled at the end of the trash farm) if they wanted.
Helped our collective purses a lot and gave me enough gems for pvp and pve gear.

Mother trash was farmable with 10+ (2 Tanks, 1 preferably paladin, 2-3 healers), although bringing 15-20 did make it go faster (Longest it took I think was aroun 1 hours when we had 9 people). Average runs were 25-35min depending on the amount of dps. Still, considering we did 5-10 runs a day (depending on the day)...