Left

Yes, good point. So there is even more benefit, I guess.

You can drop the Improved Poisons talent without much detriment. It's what I would drop for an Imp. EA build, like this one. You would just move points from Imp. Poisons to Imp. Eviscerate instead of into Imp. EA.

 

Grunge

I'd probably drop 3 points from Improved Poisons since with Tracker's Blade it isn't much of a problem to keep a stack of 5 Deadly up.
Looking over some past wws, eviscerate damage is 3-5% at best and from a pure pve stand-point Murder should be better. Since I was 41/20 for so long I always took imp eviscerate for pvp reasons..

P.S. Should be fixed.
edit: Direct Link, since the forum hasn't updated it yet.


I would definitely take Master Poisoner 1/2 over 1/5 Imp Poisons tho.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Left

We're working on modeling/simulating this in the advanced topic thread. In the quick-and-dirty simulator I wrote, they are point for point almost identical, but Imp. Poisons is marginally better for raid DPS. However, it's so slight that yeah, taking Master Poisoner is probably better, as it gives you the poison resist. See this post for more info; you can run the simulation too if you like Java.

 

drumbum

You'd be making a mistake then. The chance of a poison to proc, assuming a successful attack, would be (1-R)*P where R is the resist chance and P is the proc chance of the poison. Improved Poisons increases P by 0.02 per talent point, and Master Poisoner decreases R by 0.05 per talent point. Therefore it's easy to plug in values and find that Improved Poisons is better point-for-point, for both Deadly and Instant poison.

I realize these are not formatted very well but I couldn't come up with anything much better. I am assuming the base resist chance is 17%. These are the chance for poison proc to be successful given the indicated amount of talent points in each talent:

Instant poison:

Deadly poison:

For deadly poison it's about a wash, but it really helps with instant poison. I guess you could make the argument for Master Poisoner if you have Windfury.

 

Azsh

I'm not totally familiar with warrior tanking (never played a warrior) but isn't sunder or devastate part of a warriors threat generation cycle?

That is, imp EA would remove more AC but a warrior would get 'a more powerful effect' if they tried to sunder for threat?

If they have plenty of threat generation without requiring sunder then I guess it would be worthwhile finding out whether it makes sense to use DPS wise.

 

Dontmindme

Yes, one would not use EA on mobs where a Warrior was tanking. The main reason this comes up is that there is a growing trend for many guilds to use other classes as tanks (Paladins, Druids) and the raid would benefit in these situations from the increased Armor Reduction.

 

Tem

I'm mutilate and I really perfer it just becasue its more intresting to play.. I'm not here to argue its better or worse than anything , but withing the mutilate mechanics I would like to find out a few things...

1. definatly without a doubt is envenom better than evisc ? , specing into ither or ofcourse...
(counter argument) , I've been told I would have a serious loss in dps from using envenom becasue of the time it would take to rebuild the 5 stacks... which brings me to my next question ..


2. Is the gladiator's shiv a better OH than the emerald ripper , the ripper has better stats and top end , but the quick speed of the shiv would help with my poison problem I am currently having ,


I use envenom I was told it was the only way to go .. but for me to maintain a decent amount of DP stacks on a target when I use envenom I need to have DP on both daggers... and if I have a shaman for WF I cant use envenom or WF.. ofcourse envenom is my third finisher... or my extra CP finisher , but in kara where most mobs are immune to bleeds..which would be more dps effective? eviscerate or envenom.. and is kara jsut a specific case ? now I've heared from various other people that using envenom is a very bad idea.. since like in kara its my second finisher I have a difficult time with DP stacks... anyone have a few words to say? , thank you ahead of time

 

Left

You may wish to take some time reading through this thread as well as the last 5-10 pages of Roguecraft 101. The question you posed has been answered at least half a dozen times.

 

Professor Hurt

So we've been a bit quiet in this thread for a while and I expect it's because we're sort of stuck in this "Mutilate is how it is" limbo. I did want to highlight two elements found in the 2.4 patch notes though, and go over my thoughts on them and how they impact Mutilate.

The notes state:

• Non-corporeal Undead and Mechanical creatures are now susceptible to bleed effects.
• Elemental creatures are no longer explicitly immune to poison and disease effects. Elementals with nature school immunities will still be immune to nature-based poisons, however.

First off, I haven't tested these items on the PTR so I'm basing my comments on assumptions, but the first (and only) red flag on these items is that they are mutually exclusive. In other words, it still seems that Mechanical mobs can't be poisoned and elemental mobs can't be bled. True? Unfortunate.

As far as these items and their impact on Mutilate over other specs...

The first item really won't have any impact since all builds will be able to use bleed effects on these mobs. The second item, however, will help Mutilate more than the other specs. Unfortunately, they still have the nature-school immunity in there, which will still hinder the build in boss fights like Hydross (half of hydross?). And of course we're only talking a few encounters over 4 or 5 instances, so any change favoring Mutilate will be incredibly minor at this point.

Any other insight on this? Are my assumptions/understandings correct?

 

grayrest

Maybe I'm reading too much into the wording, but specifying "nature-based poisons" implies that there may be poisons that are not nature based at some point. I think the more natural wording would be: "... immune to poisons, which are nature-based."

 

Left

Perhaps they are referring to something like [Shadow Oil]? It would operate on a "poison" (melee proc) mechanic, but isn't a nature-based poison. However, since only shadow and frost oils exist that seems sort of silly.

I wonder if they are planning some non-nature poisons for WotLK?

In any case, all it does is allow Mutilate to use its full potential on more fights. If Mutilate surpassed combat except on these fights, then it would be relevant. As it is, it's not all that much of a help even though it is a step in the right direction.

 

Bloodsiren

It took me several days to work through RogueCraft 101 and now a couple more to get through this discussion and I have learned a lot. My math skills are quite awful though and it is always a struggle to work through those sections.

I was Cold Blood/Prep until BC came out and this allowed me to pvp and raid with the same specc well enough back in 40man content. When BC came out, my guild required all rogues to specc combat for raids. So I have been combat daggers now for a while and have never made it down assasination all the way to mutilate. I know that combat swords is more dps, but it is not as much fun to play a class where I lose most of the rogue special abilities. And now I am getting bored and tired of the simplified playing style that combat puts forth. My class officer is allowing me to try out a more "roguey" specc to see if I can continue a good level of dps output, though we both understand it would mean my dps would decrease noticeably enough. But, the point of the game is to have fun not just top dps meters, at least imo.

I rarely get WF, when I do get a shaman, it is more often GoA. We have a druid MT at least 85% of the time I would say. So I'm thinking about trying a mutilate specc with imp EA. Seeing how the T5 gear is more geared towards Agi/Crit is a good sign as we begin TK/SSC content now.
I'm looking at a specc like: WorldofWarcraft Talent Calculator given the presence of a druid MT often. I also have noticed fewer sunders in most fights than I used to see. I do not have a tanking character myself, so I'm going to discuss this more with people who understand it better, since for those occasions when there are sunders up, then clearly my imp EA may be unwanted. However from reading here and in roguecraft 101, it would seem that the increased dps from imp EA to make up for my mutilate specc would be more wanted on most fights then one ability tanks have for gaining aggro. If it is not a major aggro talent for tanks, then it might not be missed over the dmg increase.

The biggest comment I have from reading everything, is that with my current specc (combat daggers), my backstabs typically do well over 2.5K crits and upwards on raid mobs and bosses. I do have the typical combat dagger specc with 5pts in opportunity as well as imp backstab. However, my 5 CP eviscerates crit for around 1K, and that is when they crit. To me, the 15% increased damage gained from 3pts in Imp Evis seems marginal, particularly after I respecc and will lose the 5% crit from dagger special. My 5CP envenoms when I use them do more damage than my Evis currently. I generally find that rupture works best, particularly with a druid MT with mangle up, then envenom, then evis as a last resort against poison and bleed immune mobs. This is while keeping SnD up all the time. Since I rarely have WF up, I usually have either int/DP or DP/DP on my daggers and without any ranks in poisoning, I haven't had a problem keeping DP stacked on bosses.

As combat daggers I am usually in the top 5 overall and on boss fights in the top 2-3 with other combat rogues. (The ones above me are swords) I am optimistic from reading this thread that while I may lose some noticeable dps, staying in the top 5 isn't impossible IF I get the rotations down. And if DP isn't removed with envenom in 2.4, it would appear that would help also. I have read the arguments here about imp backstab, imp evis, and imp EA and it would seem that imp EA in my raid situation is the best place to put those points and then put 1 pt in master poisoner more for its duel abilities instead of 1 pt in imp poisons since I haven't had trouble with no ranks now getting poisons stacked. I do have the S1 fast OH dagger currently (1.4) and I'm working towards S2/S3 to increase the dps. (Yes, for the past year I didn't arena and pvp on my rogue like I should have)

I know compared to most of the people here I am very nubbish so I'm probably missing something pertinent, but would like to hear if anyone has anything further to say in regards to my specc here to maximize my dps as mutilate. I know I'm choosing a lower dps specc in exchange for more enjoyment from my class, but I don't want to make it even worse by playing it incorrectly.

 

Left

If you want to play Mutilate, you are on the right track with spec, in my opinion. One thing I would recommend (and this is just me talking) is to split your points between Imp. Poisons and Vile Poisons. Even using Mutilate, a couple points in Imp. Poisons can be useful. This is because simulation in the Advanced Mechanics thread has shown that the first talent points in Imp/Vile poisons are more valuable than the last ones. In other words, you get more mileage out of 3/5 Vile + 2/5 Improved than you do out of either 5/5 Vile or 5/5 Improved.

Of course, the difference is marginal, so you may choose Vile because of the PvP advantages it offers.

On finishers, your priorities could run one of two ways:

Druid/Paladin Tank
1. Slice and Dice
2. Expose Armor
3. Rupture
4. Eviscerate

Warrior Tank
1. Slice and Dice
2. Rupture
3. Eviscerate

You shouldn't use Envenom in either situation because it wipes your Deadly stack. This does two things: (1) Lowers your DPS until you can rebuild that poison stack, and (2) gives your next Mutilate a good chance to not hit as hard because the mob may be unpoisoned (if you are the only rogue). The lost DPS from rebuilding your poison stack will be greater than the gained DPS from using Envenom.

Even though Eviscerate is still the finisher of choice, it doesn't necessarily mean you need to spec into Improved Eviscerate. Evis will still be your 3rd priority finisher, which you should use rarely. Instead, you should try for a rotation something like:

1-3 CP SnD
4-5 CP Rupture

You should be able to sustain that cycle easily, giving 100% SnD time and nearly 100% Rupture time, allowing you to pour all your energy and combo points into your best finishing moves. You only use eviscerate if both SnD and Rupture are already up and you have extra energy and combo points.

If you are keeping up EA, always use 5 CP. IE, do:

3-5 CP SnD
5 CP EA
3-5 CP Rupture (If energy and SnD time allows)

Repeat


Those are my thoughts, in any case.

 

Cyn

From the latest push of 2.4 patch notes

Rogue-

# Improved Backstab is now called Puncturing Wounds.
# Puncturing Wounds increases your critical strike chance with Backstab by 10/20/30%, and the critical strike chance with your Mutilate ability by 5/10/15%.

Nice little buff, but not quite enough to save the spec from what i can see

 

Captain Winky

I saw that change, and it does seem pretty nice. If you were a typical 30% crit Mutilate rogue now, you'd be up to 45% after the patch. That increases your chance to get 3 CP on a shot from 51% now to 70% in 2.4. Figure a Mutilate rogue on a poisonable boss is roughly 25% Mutilate damage. 15% more crit means 15% more hits at 230% damage, so an extra 19.5% damage to your Mutilate (slightly more with RED). From napkin math, that looks like a 5% increase in overall DPS for a raiding 41/20 rogue, plus some extra CP with the added Seal Fate procs.

Like the above poster said, the change won't bring it equal to 41-Combat specs, but it's certainly an improvement. I'll be looking forward to seeing how this change affects the relative DPS numbers when it (hopefully) goes live.

 

Bloodsiren

Very interesting. Would anyone who is skilled at math like to take a stab at what this means to the 41/20/0 mutilate specc? It would seem that it might be worth taking the 3 points in imp puncturing wounds because it will buff mutilate now and that would be a benefit in both poisoned and unpoisoned situations. But I am not sure where it would be best to take the points out of.

 

grayrest

As an interested observer, I'd like to know how this is the case. I was under the impression that Mutilate without this buff was clearly not better than combat swords but was comparable to combat daggers, which the 101 thread has as 2.6% behind combat swords. Assuming the loss of dps from the poison talents is 1-2%, I further assume that a 5% boost would put the damage at roughly even with combat builds and it'd come down to what weapons you had available and which you prefer to play. Where did I go wrong?

P.S. What ever happened to the mutilate simulator? Last I read, the author found a bug in the white damage crits and we haven't heard anything since.

 

Neshalin

It's buried in the thread somewhere. After fixing the bug, top end dps barely passes the 1800 mark: 1824. I didn't think it worthwhile to investigate further.

The new talent change may make up the difference. Dropping three points Improved Poisons for the new Puncturing Wounds talent brings it to 1880 dps. The dps spreadsheet promises a little over 1900 dps using similar gear and non-warglaive swords. Worth looking into now.

The simulation gets the following breakdown of damage with the old talents:
62.77% melee
24.52% mutilate
6.45% rupture
1.52% eviscerate
4.75% deadly poison

and new:
60.93% melee
26.56% mutilate
6.34% rupture
1.79% eviscerate
4.38% deadly poison

Looking reasonable?

 

Hildegard

*posted something already being posted*

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

tetrisGOAT

Question:
I heard somewhere that Master Poisoner was superior to Improved Poisons in raidenvironments for poison-application.
Or rather, I've heard on several occassions that Poisons seem to have an innate resemblence to spells, especially in regard of having -16%-to-hit vs lv73bosses. Can anyone confirm/denounce?
EDIT I just read further up on this very page. D'oh!

Also, I was thinking something along the lines of
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
as soon as i read the patch-notes.
Going S'n'D -> Rupture -> Envenom in between, with 2x Deadly Poison on daggers. How will it stand in competetiveness?

 

Neshalin

Why would you use double Deadly Poison if Envenom is only the third priority finisher? If you give higher priority to Slice and Dice and Rupture, Envenom/Eviscerate makes up only 2% of your finishers. Single Deadly Poison is enough to ramp up enough charges for Envenom then. If you do it only for the increased Deadly Poison damage, Windfury is a far better option. Double Deadly Poison can -only- be justified if you use Envenom faster than single poison would stack up.

 

Discombobulator

Double DP is definitely not smart for many reasons. For one if you get it to 5stack (and you will damn fast) one of your weapons "poison sockets" is wasted as the other can keep up DP easily. That takes away the possibility for WF or IP wich is a major hurt for your DPS. Put that DP on your OH and shiv it up to 5 stack and use something else on your MH.

Not to mention that if you use 2xDP just to get 5 stack DP FAST, you have to consider the fact that 5stack DP will be up much faster than you get 5 CP's thus wasting again.

 

Left

Actually, even for Combat Swords the DPS spreadsheet is now showing Grace of Air + IP to be very slightly superior to WF in some cases. The gear sheet, due to different modeling, has it slightly behind. For Mutilate, I would imagine that GoA+IP would win out. Get in the group with the hunters/druids and go to town!

 

hellspooned

Just wondering how you guys would respec to get those +15% mutilate crits?
pulling 3 talent points out of the air aint always the easiest....
was thinking of something like

World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

 

Hildegard

There is still this point in the "Fake Patch Notes" about Evenom not consuming the deadly poison anymore. With this change and misery up on the target Evenom would become a very viable finisher. This could close the tiny gap to combat swords and make mutilate the best PVE build without considering the legendary swords.#

I would take Fleet Footed over Improved Poisons, as it increases your DPS uptime in encounters with a lot of movement, and Improved Sprint over deflection. The improved Sprint is a more personal decision here, but it helped on Vashj a lot and there could be more fights with roots or slowing effects, also it breaks a lot of frost effects, that also lower your attack speed.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard