hellspooned

right... i forgot about that thing
if it's true then imp poisons will not be needed at all...
however since i'm usually not running with an ench sham in my group i'm considering 5/5 imp poisons over Vile together with instant poison on my other weapon.

 

Hildegard

I did a bit of maths on rupture vs. envenom. This math is based on the assumption, that Envenom doesn't consume Deadly Poison anymore.

35% Crit and 2200 AP

Envenom:
(900+2200*0.15) = 1230
1230 * 1,2 (Vile Poisons) * 1,02 (Murder) * 1,05 (Misery) = 1581
Critical Strike damage with 3% crit meta socket: 3257
Average damage: 2176

Rupture:
2200 * 0,24 + 1000 = 1528
1528 * 1,02 (Murder) * 1,3 (Mangle) = 2026

Additional numbers:
3000 AP / 35% Crit / 5 CP:
Envenom: 2430
Rupture: 2281

3000 AP / 40% Crit:
Envenom: 2522
Rupture: 2281

Result:
For 41-20-0 Envenom would be superior to rupture if the change goes live like proposed in the "fake patch notes". Rupture however does scale better with AP than Envenom does.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Left

Don't forget damage per energy calculations. Rupture still wins there.

 

Hildegard

Good point. I actually forgot that. So it's only better if you don't have mangle on the target.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

pindle

However, if you consider 2pc T5 bonus, I calculated an average Envenom of 2481 using Hilde's values (3k/35%/5cp), which speaks for Envenom a bit again, should you not have a druid available. Haven't calc'ed DPE yet since I'm a little short in time atm. Not that interesting I guess if you've already fully replaced T5 tho.

 

Duskster

If I were to consider taking Mutilate next patch, what would the most optimal trinket pairing be between DST, TT, and WSC?

 

Bloodsiren

Thank you to those of you who have been putting forth some math behind the theory. With the new puncturing wound talent, a mutilate build would be foolish not to take 3 pts in it from what I'm hearing? So the question for me becomes where to take those talent points out of. It sounds like possibly murder and/or imp poisons.

I am looking at this build: WorldofWarcraft Talent Calculator

My gear level right now is 2 pieces t4, DST from Gruul and our raid team is just beginning SSC/TK. Again, we often have a druid MT with mangle. From what I have been reading, the 2% dmg Murder offers might not be as worthwhile as 2 points in either master poisoner or imp poisons? But please correct me if I misread. It still sounds like the imp EA is worthwhile for my raid setup, particularly if I'll be seeing more crits from Mutilate with the new talent.

I also wish to add concerning WF and GoA totems. Our raid team typically has a maximum of 3 shamans in attendance. For the most part, our shamans are either resto or caster dps and are put in with casters and healers. Also, our raid leaders often put the rogues in one group and then will throw in a hunter and the MT druid if we are lucky or sometimes the dps warrior, then usually assign a priest with CoH to our group. We typically have 3 rogues on a 25man raid night, sometimes 4. While this may not be ideal, I have no say in group arrangements for maximizing my dps. So it is appreciated to know what the best poisons up without shaman totems are for maximum dps. I have read posts here and in roguecraft 101 that sometimes contradict each other where DP on both daggers eeks out a tiny bit more dps until totems are factored in, or where IP/DP is more dps... I am sorry to ask for clarification here, but I want to make sure I have it correct as to the best poison application without taking into account raid buffs which some of us may not get. And I know there is a dps spreadsheet and I have tried to get it working, but I cannot and appear to be completely spreadsheet incompetent. Thank you so much.

 

• Jamor

You need to tell your raid leader to examine his or her group synergy thoughts. Even a resto shaman, with 3x rogue and DPS warrior as a melee group is a huge buff to DPS.

 

grayrest

Puncturing Wounds is clearly worth getting. As for where to take points from, the poison talents are the most obvious target since poisons are normally only 5-7% of a raiding rogue's damage. Using this 41/20 build as the baseline (I lose track on what the optimal allocation for poison talents is so I've put them all in vile), there are 5 points in poison talents. Pulling 3 points into puncturing leaves you 2 points to put into poison talents or imp expose armor if you're sacrificing for the raid.

The other option is to drop imp KS and free up the 3 talent points. Imp KS is obviously only useful on trash and adds, so the value is a bit fuzzy.

 

Bloodsiren

Yes I am aware of this; I have taken the time to address this issue with my raid officers, even referencing these forums (Elitistjerks.com) but to no avail. So I have to work with what they give me. It does frustrate me as we are beginning TK/SSC and the first bosses are up against enrage timers (Hydross and VR) and we are finding it difficult to keep the dps up against the timer, but the rogues are constantly put in one group and then thrown a dps warrior and/or hunter most of the time. Since we almost always have 3 rogues and many times 4, it seems to me that it would be best to split the rogues into 2 parties, then spread out dps warrior, hunters, shaman and feral druid to help maximize dps. Particularly since our rogues consistantly stay in the top 5dps on boss fights.

Perhaps others here have run into the same issues with their raid officers and know of a way to explain this better? The officers that lead our raids are primarily caster dps and healers, so I know they are looking at it from a different viewpoint of keeping everyone alive by throwing melee in one party so a priest can use CoH, and also from boosting ALL dps, not just the rogues.

 

Dorvan

Imp KS is pretty useless for a raiding build...I suppose it'd be useful if you've got Rogue finishing off Al'ar adds, or for Solarian priests, but in general anything you care about DPS on will be immune to stun. With 5 points in poison talents though, I'm wondering where would be based to place them. Conventional wisdom says Vile Poisons, but my impression from personal experience is that with 0/5 Imp Poisons, a WF/DP or IP/DP set up, and a slow offhand there'd be a very real danger of losing your poison stack prematurely. I suppose things would be different in 10 vs 25 man raids as well, as in a 10 man raid it's likely that no one else will have a poison on your target.

 

Ozzmar

Seeing how you just confessed to Improved Kidney Shot being marginally (if at all) useful in a raid, wouldn't the most "obvious" choice be to lose those points in favor of Puncturing Wounds? I guess you could argue the usefulness of Fleet Footed, but I don't think many would considering the huge speed boost it grants.

This appears to be a pretty straight-forward Assassination tree allocation to me:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I think the talents left unfilled tend to have very situational value, and I think this one would work for 95% of rogues.

As for the remaining 20 points, Puncturing Wounds has me thinking: Would 41/0/20 become even more viable?

On the surface, there's nothing outside of the Assassination tree that scales with this increased Mutilate crit rate - everything that scales is in the Assassination tree already (Seal Fate, Ruthlessness, Relentless Strikes). So, with that in mind, you'd think 41/20/0 would still reign supreme.

But what about the increased flow of combo points and available finishers we'll have now? I'm only conceptualizing, but I'm thinking that having a MUCH greater chance to get a 3-point Mutilate would make keeping Slice and Dice up pretty easy even without the talent. On top of that, Serrated Blades is gold considering the recent flood of Armor Penetration gear.

Do you guys think 41/0/20 will become more prevalent because of this change?

 

tedv

If survivability is the concern, a resto shaman for healing stream totem (and frost resist totem on Hydross) will improve the survivability of 3 rogues and 1 warrior much more than a group with 4 rogues and 1 warrior. I mean, you can still circle of healing the first group to great effect. In this situation you're best off giving a great buff to 75% of your rogues rather than 0%, and just let druids heal the 4th rogue with Lifebloom or something.

 

Bloodsiren

Particularly with my raid team situation with 3-4 rogues on any given raid, it is unlikely that I would be hitting a poisonable mob that didn't have poison on it from one of the rogues. I'm more wondering about murder versus vile or imp poisons for those 2 points? Or if master poisoner is worthwhile for the secondary reduction of being poisoned. I'm not looking at a cross benefit for pvp, but purely for pve. I do not know how many mobs in SSC and TK have a poisoning effect that I would be trying to resist as we are only just starting to work through these instances.

I have noticed so far, that I rarely use KS in raids. Perhaps we have simply not gotten far enough into SSC/TK, but I have found that KS tends to hinder my rotation and I cannot generally get enough dots on a target to keep it stunned very long when the target it stunnable, which even on trash mobs isn't very often. This is from a combat daggers perspective with little experience inside the higher lvl instances though.

Murder only offers a 2% increase in damage against certain types of mobs. After 3/5 in vile poisons, it is an increase of 8% damage for the last 2 points against poisonable mobs only but for both envenom and for poison damage. And it seems to me, that in general, the types of mobs that murder affects are also usually poisonable since it is mechanical and elemental mobs that are usually immune to my poisons. If envenom does not use up DP stacks as the rumor has it, that might be the best place to put those 2 points compared to Murder.

I would like to have imp EA for the previously stated reasons of having a feral druid as a MT often. With a druid or pally tank, it might mean increased dps for the raid by a noticeable amount without hindering how the tank is gaining aggro. In talking to a warrior in the guild, it would seem that imp EA is not something I would want to use with a warrior MT since it would hinder the aggro they are able to gain through their devastate ability, which places sunders on the target and gains additional dmg/aggro from those sunders. It might simply be a matter of me speccing with Imp EA for a week and paying attn and communicating with the tanks to see if it is hindering their aggro gain more than it is helping the overall raid dps.

 

grayrest

Apologies, my personal preferences slipped in there as an obvious. The problem is that the poison talents are similarly marginal. Napkin math, 5/5 vile adds (5*(180*1.2-180))/12 = 15 dps for deadly and roughly ((105*1.2-105)*.2)/(1.8/1.3)= 3 dps for instant poison for a total of 18 dps or 3.6 dps per talent point. IKS is situational but situationally awesome. Tossing in the out of raid value and the value on trash, I'd rate it as more valuable than a non-scaling 10 dps on a theoretical tank and spank boss fight. Please correct my math if I'm wrong.

I do not see 41/0/20 becoming better simply because 50%+ of your damage is still white and the combat tree is clearly superior for white damage (precision, DW spec).

 

Left

I made a fix to the DPS spreadsheet to account for the new Puncturing Wounds talent and this is what I came up with:

A quick evaluation of my current early T5 level gear swapped over to dual S2 daggers yielded about -2.5% DPS going to Combat Mutilate (41/20/0) and about -4.0% DPS going to Sub Mutilate (43/0/18). (This is comparing to my current combat swords build.) If this holds as gear scales up, then 43/0/18 or 41/0/20 will be slightly behind the combat variety. Still, close enough that perhaps in certain gear sets it could be worth it.

 

ekval

I posted this thing earlier but the problem with 4x/0/x spec lies in Ruthlessness and it randomness, if there just could be chance to get it 100% chance. It was already possible to get enough crit rating (before Puncturing Wounds) to maintain 1 Mutilate cycles (~9second), but it will always fail if you don't get Ruthlessness proc. Without Ruth. proc you end up with 3CP which means either SnD or Rupture will drop.

 

Dorvan

Imp SnD is just a nice bonus to going Combat, the real gain from a Mutilate perspective is Precision/Dual-Wield Spec, and the new talent doesn't do anything to change that white damage balance.

 

ekval

It does give more CP's which means more finishers which means Serrated Blades will gain boost from Puncturing Wounds change.

 

Dorvan

I guess you mean because of increased rupture time? As I said, if people can run numbers on it that's great, but I'm highly skeptical. White damage is our largest single source of DPS, and precision and dual wield spec both provide significant boosts to that dps.

 

Ozzmar

Yea I understand that, I just meant that one of my primary concerns with going 4x/0/x is that it's hard to keep SnD up sometimes. Ekval is right - a failed Ruthlessness and Mutilate with no crits means one of your timers will drop, and thus, your DPS. Increasing the crit rate of Mutilate, increases your combo points, which increases your finishers, so on and so forth. Of course Ruthlessness is still problematic, but being able to count on 3-point Mutilates much more frequently would certainly help to some extent.

 

ekval

I'm just wondering could one think of any cycle with 4x/0/x build without Ruthlessness? It would truly give some consistency if you wouldn't need to rely on Ruthlessness and could still run SnD Rupture cycle without Imp. SnD.

 

Professor Hurt

As far as what would a 41/20/0 build look like, I think it's the same one I picked to do my backstab vs mutilate comparison earlier in this thread. Basically, just drop Imp KS and put those points into PW. If we're trying to compete with combat swords, we're really talking about PvE raiding anyway, and Imp KS does little.

When comparing Envenom to Rupture, first remember that the patch notes were fake. I'm not saying it couldn't be implemented, but I want to be clear so any future trollers don't read this and assume "envenom > rupture alwayz!".

Even if we prove that rupture > envenom with mangle around, it would still make it a close second finisher, and would be a great way to tear through those extra CPs mutilate gives. So I would guess your rotation would be SnD, rupture, envenom until you drop, rinse, repeat. If mangle isn't around, just spam envenom after popping SnD.

 

Ozzmar

An untalented Rupture with no Mangle is still better than Envenom. We had this discussion in Roguecraft 101.

Roguecraft 101

 

Hildegard

2.4 PTR and Patch Notes

So who knows...

But anyways I am still hoping for the next little buff making Mutilate as strong as combat swords. I think they're testing the reaction and the rogue community celebrates. If they don't buff the overall rogue damage but bring a spec back to viability it would be awesome.

The question is what needed to be changed to not make mutilate overpowered but to give it the edge to compete with swords ?

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard