[Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion - Page 2

Neshalin · 01/03/08, 10:14 AM

Windfury is better than Deadly Poison mainhand.
Whether you'd want to use double Deadly depends on if you use Rupture or Envenom as second finisher (Slice and Dice is always first and should never drop), but I'll show it isn't worth it using some math and some lazy estimates:

Envenom(5 cp) = (900 + AP * 0.15) * VilePoisons * CritBonus
Rupture(5 cp) = (1000 + AP * 0.24) * Mangle

Taking 3000 buffed AP, we get:

(900 + 3000 * 0.15) * 1.2 * CritBonus > (1000 + 3000 * 0.24) * 1.3
Critbonus > 2236 / 1620 = 1.3802.

Above 38% crit chance Envenom does more damage than Rupture. A pretty reasonable number considering Mongoose enchantments and Ashtongue Talisman. 3-cp and 4-cp Envenoms require more crit to be better than Rupture:

Envenom (3 cp) = (540 + AP * 0.09) * VilePoisons * CritBonus
Rupture(3 cp) = (618 + AP * 0.18) * Mangle
Critbonus > 1505.4 / 972 = 1.5488

Envenom (4 cp) = (720 + AP * 0.12) * VilePoisons * CritBonus
Rupture(4 cp) = (798 + AP * 0.21) * Mangle
Critbonus > 1856.4 / 1296 = 1.4324

This doesn't count the loss of Deadly Poison yet, though. With a 1.5 speed offhand like Tracker's Blade, maximized hit and 5/5 Improved Poisons, it takes about 15* seconds to build up 5 doses of Deadly Poison. If Envenom is your second finisher, you will often find yourself with insufficient doses active to gain the full benefit. Applying Deadly Poison also to the main hand brings it down to 8 seconds, which is plenty. The result is a marginal gain over Rupture, plus a roughly-estimated 50 Deadly Poison dps.

If Envenom is your third finisher and Rupture the second, there is plenty time to build a Deadly Poison stack using only the offhand. Deadly Poison on the main hand would increase dps slightly, from about 60 to no more than 90 poison dps. Windfury will provide more damage for all relevant gear levels.

*: 5 stacks of Deadly Poison at 40% chance per attack requires 5 / 0.4 / 0.83 (boss spell resist) / 0.95 (boss dodge chance?) = 15.85 attacks made. In 6 seconds you do one Mutilate and 6 / 1.5 * HasteBonus attacks. With only Slice and Dice that's 6.4 attacks per 6 seconds, or 15 seconds on average for the stack. DST, Mongoose procs and Haste potions will lower this number.

Emoire · 01/03/08, 12:42 PM

The only way to raid as Mutilate, IMO:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

A Mutilate build should not rely on white damage as it's means of DPS and therefore must max out it's "special ability" (yellow damage) DPS. Therefore, you'll find no points in combat in this build. Also, Opportunity is a must for any serious Mutilate DPS (+20% Damage). You'll also notice that this build obtains 3/3 in Serrated Blades. This increases your Rupture damage by 30% and will passively increase your Mutilate and white damage done due to the reduced armor effect. As far as gear goes, haste rating does little to nothing to affect your GCD and therefore is unimportant in comparison to AP and crit ratings. Aslo, +hit is still a necessity, however you don't need as much of it since you are only relying on your special attacks (yellow damage) and not your white damage.

The ability queue would be as following:

Opener: Ambush
Repeat the following:
Mutilate x1 (x2)
Rupture
Mutilate x2
If Rupture is still up and you have x5 DP on the target, then Envenom, else Rupture.

Note: For every Mutilate x2, you'll end up with 4 to 5 combo points. If Relentless Strikes procs after your last finisher, then you are guaranteed 5 CP's after x2 Mutilates.
For each Mutilate, there is x2 critical strike rolls. If just one of these is a critical or both are criticals, you will receive x3 CP's due to Seal Fate. Therefore, if Relentless Strikes procs and you get a single or double crit on your next Mutilate, you already have 4 CPs. At this point, you may decide to use a finisher. Don't. You'll get more DPS per energy if you use another Mutilate and gain a total of 5 CPs while wasting 1 or or 2 of them and then doing a max Envenom or Rupture.
As for your opener, if that crits (or Initiative procs), then you have 2 CPs to start with. If you first Mutilate is a single or double crit, then you already have 5 CPs and can Rupture just after x1 Mutilates. If both your opener and Initiative procs , then your first Mutilate doesn't even need to crit to obtain x5 CPs after your first Mutilate. Combine this with Ruthlessness and you have a fast application of x5 Rupture within a couple seconds of the fight (Ambush->Mutilate->Rupture).

Note 2: With Improved Poisons on the target and DP on both of your hands (as well as intelligent use of Shiv), you should never miss a x5 DP Envenom.

Note 3: I've never had the opportunity to try this, but as I see it, it's the only way to roll Mutilate in a raid setting. If you're going down the combat tree, you might as well roll combat swords if you're treating the build the same way. You don't expect a BM hunter and a MM hunter to play or gear the same, do you?

Hanos · 01/03/08, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Emoire

The only way to raid as Mutilate, IMO:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

A Mutilate build should not rely on white damage as it's means of DPS and therefore must max out it's "special ability" (yellow damage) DPS. Therefore, you'll find no points in combat in this build. Also, Opportunity is a must for any serious Mutilate DPS (+20% Damage). You'll also notice that this build obtains 3/3 in Serrated Blades. This increases your Rupture damage by 30% and will passively increase your Mutilate and white damage done due to the reduced armor effect. As far as gear goes, haste rating does little to nothing to affect your GCD and therefore is unimportant in comparison to AP and crit ratings. Aslo, +hit is still a necessity, however you don't need as much of it since you are only relying on your special attacks (yellow damage) and not your white damage.

The ability queue would be as following:

Opener: Ambush
Repeat the following:
Mutilate x1 (x2)
Rupture
Mutilate x2
If Rupture is still up and you have x5 DP on the target, then Envenom, else Rupture.

Note: For every Mutilate x2, you'll end up with 4 to 5 combo points. If Relentless Strikes procs after your last finisher, then you are guaranteed 5 CP's after x2 Mutilates.
For each Mutilate, there is x2 critical strike rolls. If just one of these is a critical or both are criticals, you will receive x3 CP's due to Seal Fate. Therefore, if Relentless Strikes procs and you get a single or double crit on your next Mutilate, you already have 4 CPs. At this point, you may decide to use a finisher. Don't. You'll get more DPS per energy if you use another Mutilate and gain a total of 5 CPs while wasting 1 or or 2 of them and then doing a max Envenom or Rupture.
As for your opener, if that crits (or Initiative procs), then you have 2 CPs to start with. If you first Mutilate is a single or double crit, then you already have 5 CPs and can Rupture just after x1 Mutilates. If both your opener and Initiative procs , then your first Mutilate doesn't even need to crit to obtain x5 CPs after your first Mutilate. Combine this with Ruthlessness and you have a fast application of x5 Rupture within a couple seconds of the fight (Ambush->Mutilate->Rupture).

Note 2: With Improved Poisons on the target and DP on both of your hands (as well as intelligent use of Shiv), you should never miss a x5 DP Envenom.

Note 3: I've never had the opportunity to try this, but as I see it, it's the only way to roll Mutilate in a raid setting. If you're going down the combat tree, you might as well roll combat swords if you're treating the build the same way. You don't expect a BM hunter and a MM hunter to play or gear the same, do you?

You sir are an idiot:

"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

To go into a little more detail on why you (an undead paladin...) have no clue WTF you are talking about:
-Mutilate does rely on white damage, not as much as combat, but if you want the highest DPS Mutilate Build possible, then white damage is going to be atleast 45-50% or your damage
-Opportunity is not a must, Mutilate actually hits harder with Duel Wield then with Opportunity
-Serrated Blades to increase Rupture... good for Hemo, bad at the expense of Duel wield. Last raid Rupture with 5 Point Ruptures was 5% or my DPS... so 30% of 5% is 0.6% increase in DPS (the white damage gain is material... but you don't like white DPS).
-Haste rating does not affect the GCD... NOTHING not little to nothing, but again... increase white damage...
-Hit is good for Mutilate, however it isn't the best not because of the lack of reliance on White damage as you suggest, but because you gain more from crits, so Agility becomes slightly better, with Mutilate it doesn't matter if you hit 1% more often or hit 1% harder, with Combat it does due to CP. Right idea... wrong reason.

Finally your whole rotation is wrong. Wasting combo points is never acceptable, especially wasting 2, a Mutilate Build will do 4/5 point finishers, if you have 3 you mutilate again, if you have 4 you use a finish and keep Find Weakness up, S&D > Rupture > Eviscerate > Envenom.

I especially like the last comment:

Note 3: I've never had the opportunity to try this, but as I see it, it's the only way to roll Mutilate in a raid setting. If you're going down the combat tree, you might as well roll combat swords if you're treating the build the same way. You don't expect a BM hunter and a MM hunter to play or gear the same, do you?

Thanks for sharing, you are an idiot, and we don't need any of your unfounded, untested, untrue opinions in the future.
Also, taking combat talents, does not require a full combat built, the best specs are the ones that do the best at fulfilling their purpose, if that purpose is DPS Combat has some great early talents. 41/20/0 is the only Raid Mutilate Spec worth considering.

Emoire · 01/03/08, 1:51 PM

Well, your points are taken. I've never seen a post rationalize the mutilate/combat spec and therefore I never saw any true value in it compared to mutilate/sublety.

However, I'd advise you to re-write your post leaving out the "jackhole attitude". M'kay. Thanks.

Edit: HA! I didn't notice I selected Undead...

Hanos · 01/03/08, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Emoire

Well, your points are taken. I've never seen a post rationalize the mutilate/combat spec and therefore I never saw any true value in it compared to mutilate/sublety.

However, I'd advise you to re-write your post leaving out the "jackhole attitude". M'kay. Thanks.

Edit: HA! I didn't notice I selected Undead...

Please edit out everything that you got completely and utterly wrong, and I just might. Your post is the type of blatently wrong information that has no business on this forum. At no point did you support a single point with a correct number. There are plenty of posts explaining why 41/20/0 is superior to the alternatives, however most of them are 10-12 months old because the spec wasn't even remotely viable for raiding until the Exalted BT Trinket due to poor scaling and lack of optimal gear.

If you look at WWS parses of Mutilate Rogues you will see that most if not all of your points are completely wrong, stick to paladin threads, you don't have a clue what you are talking about (or just read... don't post).

Emoire · 01/03/08, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Hanos

Please edit out everything that you got completely and utterly wrong, and I just might. Your post is the type of blatently wrong information that has no business on this forum. At no point did you support a single point with a correct number. There are plenty of posts explaining why 41/20/0 is superior to the alternatives, however most of them are 10-12 months old because the spec wasn't even remotely viable for raiding until the Exalted BT Trinket due to poor scaling and lack of optimal gear.

If you look at WWS parses of Mutilate Rogues you will see that most if not all of your points are completely wrong, stick to paladin threads, you don't have a clue what you are talking about (or just read... don't post).

Are you always this way or just when you don't take your pills?

Ozzmar · 01/03/08, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Emoire

Well, your points are taken. I've never seen a post rationalize the mutilate/combat spec and therefore I never saw any true value in it compared to mutilate/sublety.

You wouldn't have to. Read the first post of Roguecraft 101 that says any serious DPS spec would include Relentless Strikes, Precision, and Dual-Wield Specialization.

Emoire · 01/03/08, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Ozzmar

You wouldn't have to. Read the first post of Roguecraft 101 that says any serious DPS spec would include Relentless Strikes, Precision, and Dual-Wield Specialization.

I did read it, but I failed to see any rationalization why Dual-Wield Spec was greater than Opportunity for a Mutilate build. What I didn't realize (nor read there) was that Mutilate damage suffered from the innate damage reduction of the offhand due to duel wield penalty. The thought that that effect would apply to Mutilate never occurred to me. It didn't seem to make sense as a game mechanic. Hell, if that was removed, Mutilate would probably be pretty viable. That was my base assumption.

Hanos · 01/03/08, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Emoire

Are you always this way or just when you don't take your pills?

Stupid people who try to state their unfounded opinions as facts in a theorycraft forum piss me off, because invariably someone else reads it, assumes you know what you are talking about (which you don't) and follows your advise, then shares it with someone else etc. If you atleast try to reason through it with some math and numbers, that is ok, but just stating blatantly wrong things without numbers to support it... I mean how do you ever conclude that a rogue doesn't rely on white damage... and in the same paragraph say you are taking serrated blades to increase rupture and the increased white damage is a bonus (hint, it is the other way around).

Originally Posted by Emoire

I did read it, but I failed to see any rationalization why Dual-Wield Spec was greater than Opportunity for a Mutilate build. What I didn't realize (nor read there) was that Mutilate damage suffered from the innate damage reduction of the offhand due to duel wield penalty. The thought that that effect would apply to Mutilate never occurred to me. It didn't seem to make sense as a game mechanic. Hell, if that was removed, Mutilate would probably be pretty viable. That was my base assumption.

And if every Backstab was a Crit and did 400% damage then Combat Daggers would be better then Swords... if we could remove or change any mechanic that we didn't like we could support any incorrect statement.

Your failure is most likely related to the fact that you don't know what you are talking about, and have no business in this thread. IF you ever played a mutilate rogue AND looked at the combat log, you would notice that mutilate has 2 entries in the log, 1 for MH, 1 for OH, and assuming a slightly faster OH, the OH hit is always less then half the MH unless the OH Crits and the MH doesn't. Fortunately you didn't go so far as to say you could get 4 CP's from a double crit...

Emoire · 01/03/08, 3:12 PM

I'm glad you think you know me so well. It's strange that I get an infraction on this forum for trolling when you probably don't for degrading comments. Interesting indeed...

Anyhow, I never said at any point I was "theorycrafting". I don't always go so far as theory. However, what I did offer was a hypothesis. I don't pretend to know everything about every class and therefore can find my numbers and assumptions as fallible. The same goes for any thread in this forum. Just because someone says "here's the way it is" or "here's the way it is with these numbers as proof" does not make it so. Sometimes it's worthwhile to post ideas in response to be shown the opposite. You assume all of this information is easy to come by, yet I never found a thread explaining why Dual Wield Spec was better than Opportunity for a Mutilate build. Now I see why.

Does this make me stupid? No.
Does not every playing a mutilate build in a raid make me ignorant of the facts? Only to a degree.
Does all of this give you the right to act like an asshole? No.

Edit:
The title of this thread is Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion, is it not?

PSGarak · 01/03/08, 3:37 PM

Stating your own ill-informed ideas from no experience, theorycrafting, or class knowledge, as suggestions rather than questions, when they've already been rigorously disproven by rogue theorycrafting doesn't particuarly contribute to a fruitful discussion. This is a theorycrafting thread in a theorycrafting board on a forum known and regarded for its theorycrafting. If you're not theorycrafting, then you should be asking for advice, not spouting off your crackpot theories as canon. You may have thought you were offering a hypothesis, or convinced yourself after the fact thats' what you originally intended to do, but what you wrote was a playstyle guide as if you were an authoritative source, based off of faulty logic and outright ignorance, and you're getting justly slamed for it.

I hope you're only still talking because Hanos riled you up, and if he had been more forgiving you would have simpyl said "I stand corrected, thanks for the info." You're in the wrong, both in the information you posted and in having posted it at all. Not to say Hanos isn't being overly aggressive to you, but he has good reason.

SirRobHiFi · 01/03/08, 3:40 PM

My guild has just recently got into Hyjal (3 bosses down) and BT (2 bosses down) and I've been getting some pressure to change from mutilate to combat daggers. The only fast off-hand I have is an uninchanted feltooth.

On Hyjal trash I'm way behind the combat rogues on damage but can hit #1 on bosses. The raid leader insists he's not bothered about trash damage meters. The first thing they had me do was up my hit rating which is now 304 (with food buff) so I lost some crit/ap doing that.

Could you take a peek at my armory and point out any changes you'd make to maximise my damage as mutilate and also comment on if you think combat daggers would increase my boss fight dps.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Thanks.

Ozzmar · 01/03/08, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Emoire

I did read it, but I failed to see any rationalization why Dual-Wield Spec was greater than Opportunity for a Mutilate build. What I didn't realize (nor read there) was that Mutilate damage suffered from the innate damage reduction of the offhand due to duel wield penalty. The thought that that effect would apply to Mutilate never occurred to me. It didn't seem to make sense as a game mechanic. Hell, if that was removed, Mutilate would probably be pretty viable. That was my base assumption.

Well, you're new, so I'll give you some useful information. Roguecraft 101, as with many other similar threads for other classes, is a compliation of information that EJ has shown with actual numbers time and time again. It was put in one place so that people like Hanos don't have to police the forums insulting every person who was too lazy to read an 80-page thread on numeric analysis. I'd suggest reading through it and get to know the information well if you want to even be taken seriously in a discussion like this one. And if you feel that something in the thread is incorrect, by all means, take your rogue to a raid and use your WWS to show us why.

Hanos wasn't infracted because he is saying what most of the mods would have had they seen your post first. Granted, some may have been a little gentler than others, but the attitude is the same. People here have done hours of work researching how their classes work and finding how to optimize them to the last drop of potential. New posters who know everything are rarely treated too nicely. Get used to it.

Emoire · 01/03/08, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

I hope you're only still talking because Hanos riled you up,

Pretty much sums it up. Is he always like that?

Emoire · 01/03/08, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Ozzmar

Well, you're new, so I'll give you some useful information. Roguecraft 101, as with many other similar threads for other classes, is a compliation of information that EJ has shown with actual numbers time and time again. It was put in one place so that people like Hanos don't have to police the forums insulting every person who was too lazy to read an 80-page thread on numeric analysis. I'd suggest reading through it and get to know the information well if you want to even be taken seriously in a discussion like this one. And if you feel that something in the thread is incorrect, by all means, take your rogue to a raid and use your WWS to show us why.

Hanos wasn't infracted because he is saying what most of the mods would have had they seen your post first. Granted, some may have been a little gentler than others, but the attitude is the same. People here have done hours of work researching how their classes work and finding how to optimize them to the last drop of potential. New posters who know everything are rarely treated too nicely. Get used to it.

I have no intention of spreading disinformation at any point.
The thing is I read Roguecraft 101, but I saw no comparison of Mutilate with Opportunity instead of Dual Wield Spec. Granted, I may have missed it (it is a large thread), and I was going to post my build idea there, but saw this thread pop up and it seemed like the perfect place (titled "Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion"). My idea was posted and shot down, and I admit that I was wrong due to a false assumption on the mechanics of Mutilate and the off-hand base damage.

I appreciate constructive posters like yourself that don't belittle people when they turn out to be wrong. Too many people see incorrect ideas as the spreading of disinformation rather than trying to construct a discussion. As well, too many view assumptions as the old "ass-out-of-you-and-me" and fail to realize that so many ideas are based on assumptions and when one happens to be right, it's considered "insightful". >.<