Did you by chance run a few tests at varying levels of hit and crit? And if so, where the findings basically identical? For example (hit/crit%): 200/35, 300/25, 250/30. It would be interesting to see how the fast/slow offhand is affected by hit and crit. It would seem to me that hit would benefit the faster while crit the slower, but if they scale at different rates, perhaps one becomes more valuable as the other decreases...?
I did, somewhat. If I have time I'll do a more systematic set of tests in the near future (I want to get my algorithm validated first.) For several ranges of hit and talents, the difference between a 1.4 and a 1.8 speed was still always about 5 DPS. (The hit differences, talent differences, etc, just moved the overall amounts of poison DPS up and down the scale.)
More crit will increase the physical damage value of having a slower offhand dagger, but will not chance poison damage appreciably. You can plug into the long equation above, just changing the (0.55 + 0.45*2.3) part to have something other than 55% hit, 45% crit.
Thus, as you gear up (more crit), the balance is likely to shift ever so slightly in favor of a slow dagger. Changes in hit aren't changing much, really, but increases in crit yield more bang for the buck in speed differential.
I remember reading this a few weeks back but now can't seem to find it. Someone mentioned that with the upcoming patch changes, there would be something like shadow oil that could be applied to our daggers that would be considered a poison for mutilate purposes, but isn't nature damage based. Perhaps this was only a proposed suggestion or a rumor, but I was wondering if anything regarding rogues getting a poison, or something existing already that can be applied to our weapons that isn't nature-based but would procc our poison talents was coming in 2.4? I'm just looking for clarification with my foggy memory.
I have no idea if it will fulfill the poison requirement of Mutilate, but I doubt it. Either way, I believe Aldriana (?) found that poisons are better DPS than that item, so there's no reason to use it anyway.
The only problem with that is that it applies a self-buff, not a target debuff. Poisons with instant application (Instant Poison, Anesthetic Poison) do not count for the purposes of Mutilate, because the target doesn't ever have a "poison" debuff and therefore isn't considered "poisoned".
Thanks Left and to all who give useful information regarding Mutilate DPS first of all
I have pretty much all gear available to me and have been raiding as mutilate for a while. I've just started gemming accordingly as a change for combat. I'll try and shed a little light as an Illi Vanilli farming muti rogue about correct gemming and optimal +hit once I've tested different socketing. This will be alot easier come 2.4, as epic red gems are so rare these days and when one drops a caster nabs 'em before I can get a sniff. I'll buy a stash of red gems and socket red sockets with 10 agi gems and see if my AEP values start shifting by any significant number.
Anyway, here are my AEP values with my current gear:
Unbuffed Buffed
Agility 1.00 1.00
Strength 0.54 0.50
AP 0.54 0.45
Hit 0.70 0.87
Crit 0.83 0.82
Expertise 0.88 0.87
-Armor 0.12 0.16
Haste 0.83 0.87
Quite interesting.
Just on a side note: If you're going to browse my armory, ignore the gemming on my chest and the executioner enchant on my wep. I totally overlooked the red socket on Nether Shadow and can't get a replacement 'cause we're pretty much out of red/orange gems right now, and I was combat daggers for a while testing out executioner and well, let's just say I lost interest in dailies
Hope this helps in some way towards your findings.
I've been trying to work out an exact decision path for how to spend your energy, but haven't come up with something satisfactory yet. The basic finishing order is there: Slice and Dice, Rupture, Eviscerate.
But when to use what? It is clear that if Slice and Dice is down, you want to use that as soon as possible. If Slice and Dice has plenty time left, If there are only a few seconds left on Slice and Dice, you wait if energy wouldn't cap out. But how long do you wait? And what to do if energy caps out a second before Slice and Dice runs out? Do you Rupture or Eviscerate - potentially dropping Slice and Dice for a few seconds - or cut? Finish with 3 or 4 or 5 combo points? Is Slice and Dice important enough to finish with only 1 or 2 combo points? Or should you plan ahead so this situation never comes up?
It was mentioned in another rogue thread that finishers are rather underwhelming nowadays. With a typical T6 setup, let's say Eviscerate deals 1757 on average (estimated by my sim). Mutilate deals 2619, but also grants 2 to 3 combo points. At some point, using Eviscerate won't be worth it anymore, and that point might very well be in Sunwell or even Black Temple. Right now my sim shows no difference in dps when using Eviscerate, but this might change with some optimizing in 'finisher logic'.
Running a very basic cycle which perfectly alternates 5-point Slice and Dice with 5-point Rupture return a dps of 1928. It has 100% Slice and Dice uptime, 69% Rupture uptime.
The same cycle using 4+ point finishers increases Rupture uptime to 81% but yields the same dps.
My current 'real' decision path, disallowing Eviscerate, gives 1933 dps but sometimes drops Slice and Dice: 99% Slice and Dice uptime, 94% Rupture uptime.
If I do allow Eviscerate, dps is basically the same at 1933, at the cost of some Rupture and Slice and Dice uptime. At lower gear levels Eviscerate would make a bigger difference.
In a perfect situation you could really have 100% rupture uptime.
Don't risk 5point finishers, that means risking of losing CPs. Go ahead with 3/4 it's fine like that. Also, the 1-2 CP SnD.. i'm fine with that as well, especially if i have to keep up FW. It's worth shooting it with that ammount and change the cycle but still have 100% uptime instead of losing time without it, and i guess FW would run out meanwhile as well.
With the numbers you gave evis is 50.2 DPE Muti is 43,65 DPE so it's worth it so far, but not sure how it will be later..
I've been actually puzzling over the correct finisher sequence to use for a while now. Not having been Mutilate in a while, I'm having a hard time feeling out what would actually work. Ideally, what we want to see is this:
Mut -> Finisher -> Mut -> Finisher
Specifically:
Mut -> SnD -> Mut -> Rupture
Ideally, this becomes a 3+ rotation. Cycle times with this rotation are in the 13-15 second range, depending on your crit (and thus your combo point generation). Cycle times can be at +/- ~2.5 seconds depending on whether Relentless Strikes procs or not. The primary goals of using this sort of rotation are to: (1) keep Find Weakness up 100% of the time, ie, for all special attacks including finishers, and (2) keep SnD and Rupture uptime as close to 100% as possible.
Running 41/20/0, this should not be a hard cycle to keep up. Even if you only pop a 2 point SnD, with Improved SnD you get 17.4 seconds to complete the cycle. You will, ideally, have 3 or 4 combo points for your Ruptures, which means that Rupture will be up for 12-14 seconds out of your 13-15 second cycle - pretty excellent uptime. Also, every Rupture occurs during FW, and therefore gets a 10% damage boost.
The only problem I can see is when you have 2 points prior to a Rupture. Rupture is not worth it with 2 combo points, as you begin to lose base damage per tick in addition to tick time. If you have a 40% crit rate for Mutilate and Ruthlessness, this situation will occur only (0.6)*(0.6)*(0.4) ~= 14% of the time, but that's still pretty often. When you have this happen, what do you do? A quick shiv and drop Rupture? Another Mutilate and drop Rupture? Shiving would get you to Rupture still within FW uptime, but you use a really low DPE move to get there. Mutilating and then Rupturing has three disadvantages: first, you won't be able to Rupture during FW, so you lose 10% off of it. Second, it stretches your cycle out to 20-21 seconds, which will cause SnD to drop if you are coming off a 2 pt. SnD. Third, if you get up to 5 combo points it puts a 16 second Rupture on your target. That long of a Rupture can last long enough to throw off your timing next cycle through, giving you a case where either energy could cap out while you are waiting to refresh Rupture or else you have to cut some Rupture uptime with a refresh (which is only an option when your new Rupture is at the same or superior damage per tick). Yet another option would be to just drop a 2 pt. SnD instead of Rupturing so that you can keep FW up and then hope for better luck on your next Mutilate combo. This drops your Rupture uptime for about 7 seconds, but at least you can keep your cycle and you won't have to worry about energy capping. Still, the lost Rupture uptime could be a concern. Which of the three is the best way to go?
This cycle is fundamentally different from that proposed by the DPS spreadsheet, so I'm wondering what the difference is. I realize that running a 3+ cycle involves spending more energy on finishers. Is the gain in finisher and FW uptime worth the energy trade?
Last edited by Left : 03/13/08 at 10:03 AM.
Reason: Grammar
Shiv is totally not worth it in your case, Left. Its damage is so low (460 says sim) compared to Mutilate (2619). Your Rupture would have to deal over 22k damage for the 10% Find Weakness bonus to be worth more.
2+ Slice and Dice / 2+ Rupture cycle seems like a bad idea to me. You spend more energy on finishers than with 4+/4+ (which is also not optimal). Plugging it into the simulator gives 1895 dps (38 loss) with 93% Rupture uptime, 100% Slice and Dice uptime. Not THAT bad, but why not save up a few more combo points? Slice and Dice doesn't need to have Find Weakness up anyway.
Hmm. On the SnD end: 2+ SnD is fine, as SnD doesn't lose any efficiency (except energy efficiency from Relentless Strikes returns) at low combo points. I guess going 4+ SnD might be better. You sacrifice Rupture uptime, but you shift more energy from SnD into Mutilate.
2+ Rupture is exactly what I was trying to avoid. You need at least 3 points to make the Rupture viable. Hence, when you had 2 combo points prior to a Rupture, I was trying to figure out what to do. I was operating on a strategy of trying to maximize Rupture uptime and get as many Ruptures as possible into the FW window.
What is this simulator you are working with? Is it possible I could play with it? (I have some other questions it might be able to answer, like: What happens when you try for a 3+/3+ scenario? 4+/3+? What is the DPE of Mutilate?)
My suggestion: don't S&D until your energy is about to cap out, I'd say 80 with one second to go. Either you'll tick to 75 after you hit it, or RS will proc and you'll be at 100 and able to Muti before you waste energy. That way, if you're sitting on 2 CPs and it's Rupture time, you should be able to sneak a second Muti in. Lemme chart it out.
No RS proc:
Action Energy FW Time CPs
S&D, no Ruth 80 10 0
Muti, non-crit 20 9 2
Tick 40 7 2
Tick 60 5 2
Muti, non-crit 0 4 4
Tick 20 2 4
Tick 40 0(?) 4
EDIT: wow, the formatting destroyed my chart, but that's okay because it was a terrible one. I'll just leave it up there to show I did my math.
So it looks like with no RS proc you might be able to squeeze that Rupture in at the last second before FW drops, depending on latency and how close you cut the S&D. If you let your energy cap out entirely, you're guaranteed a Rupture with FW up, but then you're wasting RS if it procs and considering the 60% proc chance you're likely better off going to 80. And obviously if RS does proc you'll be able to get Rupture up well before the proc.
I guess this would be a 2+S/3+R cycle? And I imagine you could sneak a 4/5E in there every so often if you get lucky and hit a 4S.
"Aggro" (n): in the Ancient Lordaeranian, a battle cry roughly translating to "Victory and death!"
@Tarquin, yes, that is a good idea. Queuing energy prior to SnD and then spamming until Rupture is a decent way to get Rupture in the FW window. Looks like you missed a tick in your table right after the first SnD, though, so you ought to have enough energy to pull it off. But you also didn't count the energy cost of SnD? Here's how I see the table:
Queuing to ~80 Energy
SnD (no Ruth, no Relentless) -> 55 Energy, 10 seconds FW
Tick -> 75E, 9S
Mutilate -> 15E, 8S
Tick -> 35E, 7S
Tick -> 55E, 5S
Tick -> 75E, 3S
Mutilate -> 15E, 2S
Tick -> 35E, 1S
Rupture -> 10E, 0S->10S ... just squeaks in.
This is fine as long as you plan to only Mutilate once prior to your next SnD, but in a 2+/3+ cycle that's a valid assumption. If you Mutilate twice prior to your next SnD, then you are going to lose FW on the second one. Continuing from before...
Just Ruptured (no Relentless)
Tick -> 30E, 9S
Tick -> 50E, 7S
Tick -> 70E, 5S
Mutilate -> 10E, 4S
Tick -> 30E, 3S
Tick -> 50E, 1S
FW Fades prior to next Mutilate opportunity, but at this point we are queuing for the next SnD anyway
Once you have spammed your way through the Mutilate after the Rupture, you queue energy again until 80 before the next SnD. The result is...
Max cycle time = 22 seconds (if you have to Mutilate twice and Relentless does not proc twice.)
Min cycle time = 12 seconds (two Mutilate, two relentless procs)
Worst case = 17.4 seconds from a 2pt. SnD, 22 second cycle, SnD drops for a few seconds.
Well, with that cycle, you should only ever need to Mutilate once prior to an S&D, because with an M/M/R you're almost guaranteed a Ruthlessness proc, and hence a minimum 3S coming off M/M/R. Should give you enough time to sustain this cycle indefinitely and still toss in the odd Evisc. Using this I'd almost recommend keeping CB as a way to save your cycles if you're getting shafted on Ruth/RS/Muti crits.
"Aggro" (n): in the Ancient Lordaeranian, a battle cry roughly translating to "Victory and death!"
Hey Left, did you happen to catch my post about poison talent point distribution at the bottom of the last page (21)? If it's too small to be worth looking into that's cool, but I wasn't sure if you'd missed it since it was the last post on the page
Another follow-up question on the poison simulation....did you look at varying distribution of points in Imp Poisons/Vile Poisons? With the addition of Puncturing Wounds, it seems the standard 41/20/0 will likely only have 5 points combined to spend on those two talents....it'd be interesting to see what combination is optimal with say a 1.5 speed weapon vs. a 1.8 speed weapon (my intuition is that the faster weapon would favor shifting more points from imp poisons to vile poisons, while you'd want more in Imp Poisons with a 1.8 speed).
Originally Posted by Dorvan
Hey Left, did you happen to catch my post about poison talent point distribution at the bottom of the last page (21)? If it's too small to be worth looking into that's cool, but I wasn't sure if you'd missed it since it was the last post on the page
As for the talent point spread, let me run some quick tests...
EDIT: Based on a comment by Aldriana down below, I realized that I mucked up the dodge issue in the simulator. Basically, it can be assumed for the purposes of poison application that specials aren't ever actually dodged, since a dodged special (a) costs a lot less energy, and (b) is immediately reapplied. All that the dodge rate does is lengthen the average interval between attacks slightly, so you can account for that in the "specInterval" variable if you're really worried about it.
In the tests below, I assumed a 6.0% dodge rate on specials. In actuality, you that dodge rate won't really matter for the purposes of poison application. Thus, you can assume that all the average stacks below will be shifted upward slightly from what the tests show. However, the general conclusions won't change.
One example difference is that with the dodge issue fixed, 5/5 vile 0/5 imp goes from 3.86 to 3.89 average stacks, improving to 69.98 DPS.
Assumptions
5.5% miss rate (running at ~275 hit rating)
6.0% dodge rate (running at ~10 expertise rating)
SnD up at all times
No other passive or active haste effects running
On average, Mutilate attacks are spaced ~6.5 seconds apart
Method
Ran the simulator linked above for 1 test each at 100 days continuous DPS time, got the reported average number of stacks and damage per second, and posted those values here.
Results
Listing deadly poison simulated average stacks and DPS
1.8 speed weapon
5/5 Vile, 0/5 Improved -> 3.86 stacks, 69.47 DPS
4/5 Vile, 1/5 Improved -> 4.03 stacks, 70.18 DPS
3/5 Vile, 2/5 Improved -> 4.19 stacks, 70.39 DPS
2/5 Vile, 3/5 Improved -> 4.32 stacks, 69.99 DPS
1/5 Vile, 4/5 Improved -> 4.44 stacks, 69.22 DPS
0/5 Vile, 5/5 Improved -> 4.53 stacks, 67.96 DPS
1.5 speed weapon
5/5 Vile, 0/5 Improved -> 4.20 stacks, 75.63 DPS
4/5 Vile, 1/5 Improved -> 4.34 stacks, 75.54 DPS
3/5 Vile, 2/5 Improved -> 4.47 stacks, 75.10 DPS
2/5 Vile, 3/5 Improved -> 4.57 stacks, 74.03 DPS
1/5 Vile, 4/5 Improved -> 4.65 stacks, 72.60 DPS
0/5 Vile, 5/5 Improved -> 4.72 stacks, 70.80 DPS
1.4 speed weapon
5/5 Vile, 0/5 Improved -> 4.31 stacks, 77.61 DPS
4/5 Vile, 1/5 Improved -> 4.44 stacks, 77.27 DPS
3/5 Vile, 2/5 Improved -> 4.55 stacks, 76.40 DPS
2/5 Vile, 3/5 Improved -> 4.64 stacks, 75.20 DPS
1/5 Vile, 4/5 Improved -> 4.71 stacks, 73.54 DPS
0/5 Vile, 5/5 Improved -> 4.78 stacks, 71.64 DPS
Looks like, at least for my assumptions, your conclusions are correct: for 1.4 or 1.5 speed daggers, you just go 5/5 vile poisons; for 1.8 speed daggers the best results are with a couple points in improved poisons. Do note, though, that we're talking 5-7 DPS difference at most between the two extremes. It's not really a lot. You may want to go with a couple points in Improved anyway for those shamanless situations where you end up running DP/IP, and then run DP main hand in those situations.
On the other hand, assuming a ~95 DPS weapon, the average hit of your offhand weapon will be 38*0.75 = 28.5 more damage for a 1.8 speed over a 1.4 speed weapon. (Assuming DW spec here.) Accounting for crits (assume 45% crit rate), dodges (assume 5% dodge rate), and 25% armor reduction, this is 28.5*1.5*(1 - 0.05)*(0.55 + 0.45*2.3)*0.75 ~= 48.3 more damage per Mutilate. 48.3 more damage roughly every 6 seconds is around 8 DPS. IE, there is not a big enough difference in DPS for a 1.8 speed over a 1.4 speed offhand to be a significant advantage. (And this number will change depending on your true crit rate and the boss's armor.)
Couple of quick comments on this napkinmath:
1) I believe you're factoring in dodges incorrectly. As I recall, Mutilate is either dodged entirely or not at all; thus, dodges should be handled as they are for the more typical combo point generators. A dodge doesn't directly reduce your damage, since you get a refund on most of the energy and can almost immediately reapply. I would recommend modeling this by working out the average energy spent on failed dodges to get the effective Mutilate cost, and then reducing the Mutilate frequency accordingly. This should result in slightly more damage from the slower OH.
2) There's a 2nd-order mechanism you're not accounting for with regards to poison uptime; when poison is down, your Mutilates do less damage. Normally this is manageable by just watching whether or not you have poison up and waiting to Mutilate if you don't; but if it stays down long enough, you may have to either a) Mutilate with poison down, or b) Shiv. A fast OH reduces the chance of this happening (and reduces the cost of the Shiv, should you go that route). This can be mitigated to some extent by taking some points in Improved Poisons rather than Vile (and, from the later chart, it appears that this is likely a good option anyway). But it is an effect worth considering.
So, I think the conclusion that it doesn't matter a whole heck of a lot is probably valid; it appears that from a totally theoretical perspective a slow OH might do a bit more damage, but that in practice the challenges of managing poison uptime probably swing things back towards fast OHs.
I would guess that, all other things being equal, the ultimate answer is that switching to a slow OH and speccing a couple points into Imp Poison is probably the best option, but in most cases this effect will be dwarfed by the relative quality of available daggers.
1) I believe you're factoring in dodges incorrectly. As I recall, Mutilate is either dodged entirely or not at all; thus, dodges should be handled as they are for the more typical combo point generators. A dodge doesn't directly reduce your damage, since you get a refund on most of the energy and can almost immediately reapply. I would recommend modeling this by working out the average energy spent on failed dodges to get the effective Mutilate cost, and then reducing the Mutilate frequency accordingly. This should result in slightly more damage from the slower OH.
Good point. That makes it almost small enough to not worth factoring in the dodge bit at all. But, if you do, you could basically use the same equation but reduce the dodge rate by a factor of 5. Since you only spend 1/5 energy on a dodge, it takes 5 dodges to make one "effective dodge" in terms of lost energy.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
2) There's a 2nd-order mechanism you're not accounting for with regards to poison uptime; when poison is down, your Mutilates do less damage. Normally this is manageable by just watching whether or not you have poison up and waiting to Mutilate if you don't; but if it stays down long enough, you may have to either a) Mutilate with poison down, or b) Shiv. A fast OH reduces the chance of this happening (and reduces the cost of the Shiv, should you go that route). This can be mitigated to some extent by taking some points in Improved Poisons rather than Vile (and, from the later chart, it appears that this is likely a good option anyway). But it is an effect worth considering.
Yes, I've been conveniently ignoring this. We've brought it up a couple times in this thread, but basically the conclusion is that in a 25 man raid setting you hardly need to worry about this. The chances of your poison not being on the mob are low; the chance of no poisons at all being on the mob (including things like hunter stings and other rogues' poisons here) are next to nothing. It is a good point to make, though, because it will matter in the setting of a 10-man or in a hypothetical 25-man where melee DPS is split among multiple targets.
Good point. That makes it almost small enough to not worth factoring in the dodge bit at all. But, if you do, you could basically use the same equation but reduce the dodge rate by a factor of 5. Since you only spend 1/5 energy on a dodge, it takes 5 dodges to make one "effective dodge" in terms of lost energy.
At the risk of splitting hairs: this would be a good approximation, but the technique I describes is marginally better in that it correctly captures the fact that Mutilate is on a 2-roll system. But for purposes of napkinmath, yes, that would do just fine.
Yes, I've been conveniently ignoring this. We've brought it up a couple times in this thread, but basically the conclusion is that in a 25 man raid setting you hardly need to worry about this. The chances of your poison not being on the mob are low; the chance of no poisons at all being on the mob (including things like hunter stings and other rogues' poisons here) are next to nothing. It is a good point to make, though, because it will matter in the setting of a 10-man or in a hypothetical 25-man where melee DPS is split among multiple targets.
A valid point, to be sure; this is only seldom going to be an issue, and thus might not be worth including in the calculations. But it is something I'd keep in the back of my head, since situations where you're the only one poisoning a given target certainly do arise - it'll be fairly common in 10 mans (which are fairly relevant to the majority of rogues), and come up occasionally in 25s (for instance, it's not too uncommon to be the only rogue on a given target on Illidari Council)
At the risk of splitting hairs: this would be a good approximation, but the technique I describes is marginally better in that it correctly captures the fact that Mutilate is on a 2-roll system. But for purposes of napkinmath, yes, that would do just fine.
Well, the napkinmath did actually assume a two roll system... it just didn't do it the way you suggest. It had separate multiplying factors for the dodge rate and the crit rate:
(Original Equation using 1/5 dodge rate as an approximation)
28.5*1.5*(1 - 0.05/5)*(0.55 + 0.45*2.3)*0.75
28.5 - difference in base damage
1.5 - poisoned target
(1 - 0.05) - damage decrease from dodge
(0.55 + 0.45*2.3) - damage increase from crit
0.75 - damage decrease from armor reduction
You are right. The more proper look at it would come from the lost energy perspective. The energy lost per dodge is 60/5 = 12. The average Mutilate's cost is then increased by this lost energy * the dodge rate...
Mut cost = 60 + 12*(0.05)
Or, expressed in terms of Mutilates per 6 seconds at a normal energy regen rate...
60/(60 + 12*0.05) = 1/(1 + 0.05/5)
For small values of x 1/(1+x) ~= (1-x), so the simplification mostly works. But, more accurately, the equation should be...
This new equation becomes the average damage per six seconds instead of the average damage per Mutilate, but if you just divide the result of it by 6 you still get the DPS gained from a slower dagger. By fixing the dodge, you get 8.38 DPS gained under this set of assumptions.
I assume since poisons and envenom seem to be spell-like, hit rating won't lower their chance to be resisted. So the only way to decrease resistance would be to spend points in master poisoner (assuming it also works with envenom). Does poison and envenom getting resisted have enough have an impact to make this a must have?
I am debating between 5/5 Improved poisons or 3/5 IP and 2/2 Master Poisoner.
With neither talent, hitting with your poisoned weapon has a 30% chance of proccing Deadly Poison. You then have a 83% chance (against bosses) of not being resisted. One point in Improved Poisons increases chance to successfully apply poison by 2%. Master Poisoner increases the chance by 30% * 5% = 1.5%, because the resist check is only made if poison does proc; the talent doesn't do anything to the other 70% of your swings. With 5/5 Improved Poisons, a point in Master Poisoner would be up to 40% * 5% = 2% chance - the same as a theoretical sixth point in Improved Poisons.
On non-bosses Master Poisoner has no effect beyond the first point.
It took me a while, but I finally get it. Master Poisoner is only as good Improved Poisons only if I have all 5 points in improved poisons. So in theory, I could be working with a 14% increased chance to apply poisons on boss fights.
I guess the big question I still have is would MP affect envenom? Also, when envenom gets fully resisted, does it still take away CP's as well as poison charges?
Last edited by Moligun : 03/14/08 at 7:54 AM.
Reason: Eureka, I finally get it now.
These two talents actually synergize with each other, each one providing a greater benefit when there are more points in the other.
So if you have 5 talent points to spend on the two, you can see that the best option is 3/5 IP, 2/2 MP.
Also note that the difference is negligible. You may be better off on the whole speccing 4/5 IP, 1/2 MP due to MP having a weaker effect on non-boss mobs. Or, if you plan to PvP with this spec, consider how often you go up against rogues, as 50% resist (with Fleet-Footed and Surefooted) on a rogue's crippling shiv is a nice thing to have.
So if you have 5 talent points to spend on the two, you can see that the best option is 3/5 IP, 2/2 MP.
Also note that the difference is negligible. You may be better off on the whole speccing 4/5 IP, 1/2 MP due to MP having a weaker effect on non-boss mobs. Or, if you plan to PvP with this spec, consider how often you go up against rogues, as 50% resist (with Fleet-Footed and Surefooted) on a rogue's crippling shiv is a nice thing to have.
This is true for deadly poison, although for instant poison (in the case you don't have access to Windfury totem), Improved Poisons provides a slightly better benefit. See my post earlier in this thread here: http://elitistjerks.com/621024-post279.html.
Any thoughts on how MP/IP synergize with Vile? Looking at a pretty standard 41/20 build, I have 5 points to spend between the 3 talents, or 7 if I drop Murder. It seems like 3/5 Vile, 2/5 Imp is the way to go from Left's previous post (I'll be using the 1.8 speed badge offhand), but that doesn't consider MP. My gut feeling is that MP is the inferior talent from a PVE perspective, primarily for the reason Neshkalin mentioned above; however, with a slow offhand and only 2/5 IP it might be more important to keep the poison procs I do get from getting resisted. I'll be running Windfury/Deadly in the vast majority of raid situations, if it matters.
Also, a consideration regarding cycles: with the Ashtongue trinket, keeping that permanent 145 crit rating buff is pretty much dependent on high-CP finishers, at least 4 and 5 whenever possible. Is that worth adjusting cycles to account for, maybe shooting for 4+S/4+R?
"Aggro" (n): in the Ancient Lordaeranian, a battle cry roughly translating to "Victory and death!"
03/12/08, 3:34 PM
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