Next time you want to "hypothesize".. well just don't. You seem to think you know a lot about Rogues (well, Mutilate builds at the very least), yet you CLEARLY do not.

Hanos is a pretty well respected member of this rogue community, you'd know that if you looked around at any of the other rogue-related threads. He frequently tears people apart (like yourself) when they post utter nonsense, false information and general crap (like yourself). I personally support him in this.. I'm sure many other people do as well. I think the rogue community as a whole would appreciate it if you either stop posting or ask questions, as opposed to plastering this thread with false information.

Pretty much, assuming this is the same Hanos who was formerly on my realm.

Having said that, you were 100% in the wrong here. My advice is to just stop making excuses for yourself and suck it up.

Ok, I think Emoire has learned his lesson. Can we get back to the Mutilate discussion before this thread gets locked?

Yes please!

On that note, could we possibly start to work on some math to give better stat weightings for Hit, Crit, Agi, etc for a Mutilate build? Also, does crit scale with itself for a Mutilate build? Are there key points where you have so much crit that you can maintain 4+ finishers and FW.. or perhaps a point where 3+ becomes superior, or does the lower proc rate on BT trinket kill that? These are the types of topics (and others) this thread should be discussing I would think.

Waiting for Shadowmaster's boots to enchant Surefooted on them.


43/0/18 is definetly viable PvE build with proper gearing, been playing it for last few weeks. Once you get enough crit to keep 4+ SnD/Rupture cycle without drops, and start get enough AP (raidbuffs help) to boost SB'ed Rupture, it starts to shine (I would even say over 41/20/0 specs).

I generally enjoy a good discussion or trying to figure something out. However, as it was pointed out above you didn't come here and post: "I was thinking about specing Mutilate, and this is the spec I was considering for the following reasons..., what are the pros and cons, are there better options and why?"

Instead you came out and stated:
-The only way to raid as Mutilate...
-A Mutilate build should not rely on white damage as it's means of DPS...
-Opportunity is a must for any serious Mutilate DPS...
-...it's the only way to roll Mutilate in a raid setting. If you're going down the combat tree, you might as well roll combat swords...

All of which are completely and utterly wrong, and stated as facts, not your personal view point or ideas.

Now these are some great topics for discussion!

My understanding is the the current weighting for a mutilate build is: Agi > Hit > Crit > AP, basically crit is still too expensive, and Agi surpasses Hit due to the increased value of a crit, and the decreased value of hit with no CP and lower white damage then with a Hemo/Serrated Blades build. The main result of this is instead of going +8/10 Hit in yellow and +4/5 Agi/+4/5 Hit in Red Sockets you go to +8/10 Agi in Red and +4/5 Agi/+4/5 Hit in Yellows.

Not sure what you mean by scale with itself, do you mean it has a superlinear gain like Armor Penetration where the more you have the better it gets, if so, odds are no, there is probably a threshold point that you really want to reach as well as an effective cap, however with reasonable gear choices and gems neither of these should be a real concern. The goal with a Mutilate build is to come as close to chaining finishers as you can to keep Find Weakness up (as well as the Ashtongue trinket). The main problem is that you are still playing with the RNG.

Guidance for a Mutilate cycle basically comes down to a decision tree type analysis:
1. 4+ CPs = Finisher S&D if it is low or not up, Rupture if S&D is fine, Evis if Rupture and S&D are fine
2. If Relentless Strikes Procs, Mutilate, if not Mutilate gain 2-3 CPs based on Crit
3. If 4 or 5 CPs go back to step one, If 2 or 3 CPs Mutilate again, then return to step 1

Considering FW is a 10 second buff, and the worst case scenario is you have to mutilate twice before a finisher, there are times where it will drop, no amount of crit will allow you to guarantee that you can always do a 4+ cycle, because there is always the chance you won't get a crit, and even with a Relentless Proc, you would need to mutilate again. You can calculate the chance of not getting a crit very easily by squaring 1 - (your crit rate), so a 40% crit rate would be a 36% chance to not get a crit with either:
30% - 49%
40% - 36%
50% - 25%
60% - 16%
70% - 9%

What this shows is you really benefit from higher crit in regards to proc'ing Seal Fate. The question then becomes how essential is a proc, how often is it needed, and how often is is wasted. If you do a 5 point finisher you always get a Relentless Proc, if you do a 4 point you have an 80% chance, when you get the proc, if you do get a Seal Fate proc, you can get away with Finisher, Mutilate, Finisher, if you don't get the proc, you are going to have to mutilate twice anyway, and the odds of not getting a Seal Fate Proc then is even lower. I would hazard a guess that anything close to 40% would result in a very clean cycle, however there will always be the times you end up with 3 Combo Points and have to Mutilate. Overall it takes 1-2 days to get used to and then it becomes second nature.

The combination of Relentless Strikes and the Ashtongue Trinket really make a 4+ cycle superior, and I don't think a 5 point cycle will be viable due to the fact that you would waste 1-2 CPS every time you mutilated with 4 CPs.

I know a lot of modeling of this went into the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet to make it as accurate as possible. So I would advise starting there.

Pretty much. The Rogue DPS Spreadsheet doesn't inspire great confidence in it's accuracy on the whole (at least for me) - it's perfectly good as an estimation tool, but I don't put a lot of stock in it getting the answers with any great precision, particularly around SF. And the Gear sheet doesn't bother trying. To really get good numbers on Mutilate stat equivalence, someone would need to write either a very good damage simulator or damage estimation program. I know someone is working on the first of these, and I myself am working on the 2nd; but until one (or both) comes out, it will be pretty hard to do quantitative analysis of Mutilate builds.

The fact that mutilate hits with both hands, and is a large proportion of your damage, the main hole i can see in your gear is your weapons. Especially your Malchazeen. Pick up something better ASAP, Fang of Vashj, Heartrazor, Trackers Blade, Boundless agony, or S2/3 offhands. I cant see your 2nd trinket on armory, but hopefully it's a WSC or Tsunami Talisman.

Your spec should also have 3/3 imp SnD rather than endurance

It's not just Dual Wield spec - it's the combination Improved Slice and Dice, DW Spec and Precision that mean you must spend 20 points in the Combat tree for any raiding build where you genuinely want to maximise your dps.

Anyway, I've been wondering about the possibility of Mutilate outdpsing combat on certain limited-contact fights like Leotheras the Blind. The quick tight cycles that Mutilate generates seems ideal for such fights. At Leo you could run in, shiv/SS 1CP for SnD then Mutilate twice and unload a 4-5CP rupture. Starting with full energy that should take about 10 seconds, which is just right for Leo, and gives you time to get another SnD up if you're in a fight with longer contact time.

I'm putting this out there as a question for seasoned veterans as I don't have the experience with the spec myself and as my guild is still trying Vashj I'm not about to spec into a poison-dependant attack when my job is to dps the poison-immune elementals

--edit--

My apologies for not realising another half page of discussion had taken place when I made this response

I'm working on a Mutilate damage simulator, but it needs quite a bit of work before being ready for public usage. A damage estimation tool would be better for determining stat weightings; a simulator is basically just a very long test run and there will always be some variance. For example, simulating a two-week combat still varies up to 0.5 dps. That isn't enough to determine the difference between 1 hit rating and 1 crit rating. Comparing bigger numbers like 20 hit vs 20 crit makes a more notable difference but isn't as accurate. Hanos' listing (agility > hit > crit > ap) is a good start at least.

Yes and no. I mean, Imp SnD and Precision help, don't get me wrong; but for me as Combat Swords, 3/3 Imp SnD + 5/5 Precision contributes less DPS than 5/5 Dual Wield Spec - and Mutilate gains even more from DWSpec as it benefits yellow attacks as well as white. The other 2 help, to be sure, but I think it's fair to say that DWSpec is the real prize. Besides which, if the principal issue were getting Precision and Imp SnD, one could do so by speccing 41/15/5 rather than 41/20/0. But this turns out to be inferior by a fair amount in practice, because Imp SnD is just that good.

I also have a slight issue with the characterization that all reasonable raid builds need those 20 points in combat. It's true, they contribute a lot of damage; but, for example, the first 16 points of Assassination provides just as much. It's not so much that those talent points singlehandedly make or break a raid build; it's just that after you get whatever talents define your spec (Mutilate, or Hemo, or whatever), the most effective use of leftover points are dumping them in the first 11 points of assassination and anything left into combat. It's damage filler, if you will. Very effective damage filler, mind you, but the reason why you take it is not so much because it's totally essential to any raiding build but because it's better than any other option. It's a subtle distinction, perhaps, in that you wind up with the same conclusion either way (that most raiding builds have a fair amount of combat and assassination in them); but it always makes me cringe to hear absolutes like "you must always spec X" or "you must always have Y amount of stat Z", because even if the conclusion is more or less correct, the reason is wrong. Everything in this game is a matter of tradeoffs, and the reason to take anything is not that it's essential, but that it's better than other available options - and I think it's important to keep that in mind.