That's actually a good point, I pve'd as mutilate for everything from Naxx at patch release up to Teron Gorefiend. Combat typically equaled or bettered me on most fights with equal rogues. However on fights like Leotheras and Vashj, i would frequently come out a solid number 1 for I believe the reasons you raise.
This will come off as purely anecdotal since I haven't raided as Mutilate since 2.0, but I used to do great DPS in mobility/limited fights, particularly Sapphiron and 4H. 4H was extremely fun as Mutilate because I could always run into one horseman with 5 CP saved from the last guy and get a full SnD, and then get 2 ruptures going before I had to run out and repeat the same thing elsewhere. It was a really nice change from sitting around and trying to just optimize cycles.
The last time I tried raiding as Mutilate in TBC was when we had just started T6 and we went back to T5 for an attunement run. I remember being really frustrated with my damage and respeccing to combat midraid. I don't think I was doing anything wrong, since I was doing my best to keep SnD and Rupture up as much as possible while chaining FW. However, I didn't have the Ashtongue trinket back then and nowhere near as good gear, so maybe things will be different now. It will certainly be worth a shot.
As far as the comments regarding hit vs. agi for Mutilate, it will definitely hold true. It shouldn't be much of a stretch for a combat dagger rogue to go that route as I believe 10 agi and 5hit/5agi is optimal for that spec as well. At least that's what the rogue gear spreadsheet tells me.
I'd love to get a real test of Mutilate, but with the shadow of Warglaives looming hopefully on my horizon, I have to get Combat-related gemming for my T6 of course. (I'm the only Rogue, hooray? lol...)
A pipe-dream for me is that sometime before Lich King we're going to have T6 tokens rotting that I can build a 2nd set customized for Mutilate. Seeing as LK probably won't be out until at least Fall of this year ;\
Thanks for the reply Aereus. I was pvp'ing a fair bit until recently and have gradually been moving more and more points to pve. I do have the T4 snd bonus but I have now moved the points you suggested moving making my spec fully pve at last.
I now have to switch back some gems and upgrade.
Already I keep very close behind the guilds main rogue (combat swords) if not get ahead of him and he has 4 piece T5 as well as 100 dps weapons so I figure I'm doing pretty well but I want that #1 slot back I know and love so well. A lot of it is gonna be down to the huge gap in gear between us for now.
I haven't played Mutilate since my days in kara (now running SSC and soon TK), but I long for the day I can go back without feeling bad about it. I would switch now, but with the elemental and mechanical mobs in both of these instances, I just won't contribute as much. I'll still spend DKP on daggers though
Anyway, I felt my DPS in mutilate was very comparable to combat daggers and a helluva lot more fun, and that was with a combat-focused gem selection. I wrote up a small tip list on my guild's forum that I'll paste here, then share some theorycrafting thoughts. None of the items below are rocket science; I just thought it would be nice to summarize a few basics about Mutilate before moving on:
Mutilate is a trainable skill much like hemo. If you respec make sure you train the latest rank!
In my experience, the DPS output is similar to combat daggers, sometimes better, sometimes worse.
It's a very PvP friendly build (even at 41/20/0).
Having two hard hitting daggers isn't necessary for a mutilate build to be effective, and there's an argument for having a fast offhand (poison app).
Special attack rotation: I found opening with a mutilate, then toss on a SnD which will activate your Find Weakness talent. Build another five points and put on a full SnD (if the mob's health requires it) or rupture, then work that rotation until said mob is dead, spending extraneous points on evis/envenom. Time the finishing moves so you can maximize the 10 seconds of Find Weakness
Deadly Poison in your offhand is essential so if necessary use Shiv to force application (I seldom need to, though)
I've played with using Envenom to burn my Deadly Poison charges and it doesn't seem to grant me any more/less DPS than if I just let the DP charges tick away. However, I think this depends on your stats/gem selection, and seeing big envenom crits is fun Regardless of what you choose, try to time an envenom with the last few percentages of a mob's health.
No poisons can be applied to Mechanical/Elemental mobs and therefore mutilate dps drops significantly. Pay attention to raids that feature these boss tyeps and consider respeccing to something more useful during those raids.
Now for the theorycrafting part. Not spending points in Imp SnD is an interesting proposition. I realize it has significant worth in general so I won't begin to argue against that. However, one *could* argue that with Imp SnD, a mutilate rogue runs into more "wasted" CPs (2-3) situations. In those cases, the rogue often just dumps them on a evis or envenom, and tries to build back up as quickly as possible for the next rotation of SnD/Rupture. Without Imp SnD however, I could see this situation happening less often, therefore making the worth of each CP greater. Of course this would mean more CPs spent on SnD in the long run, but that DOES have an upside: the triggering of Find Weakness and less wasted/duplicated Find Weakness time. I know situations like this happened to me, but I don't have any hard numbers on how often. But one can imagine this situation happening less often if the spacing between SnD and finisher fits into a better groove.
Great threat. Here's to hoping they add a poison for elem/mech mobs soon
Special attack rotation: I found opening with a mutilate, then toss on a SnD which will activate your Find Weakness talent. Build another five points and put on a full SnD (if the mob's health requires it) or rupture, then work that rotation until said mob is dead, spending extraneous points on evis/envenom. Time the finishing moves so you can maximize the 10 seconds of Find Weakness
This means using the mutilate as an opener instead of ambush, cheap shot, or garrote? Is this worthwhile on an unpoisoned target?
I'm usually reluctant to, but I will sometimes. Obviously Shiv is usually the "best" choice, but there's something to be said for opening with Mutilate.
1. Shiv costs at least 33 energy, 34 or 35 if you're using anything other than Sunblade. Grants one combo point. 100% chance to proc poison.
2. Mutilate always costs 60 energy, but hits with both daggers (30 energy per dagger, if you will). Two combo points, and 30-40% chance to proc on each hand, depending on your spec.
If you're just starting a long DPS cycle on a boss, Shiv would be smarter. If you need to get a Rupture ticking as quickly as possible because you're going to have to run out of melee range again soon, it may be worth the gamble. Worst case scenario, you get two points and no poison procs. Best case, you get three points and poison, which may not get stacked to 5 before you have to run anyway.
I'm guessing someone who is more savvy with exponents than myself could explain the chances (and potential payoffs) for using Mutilate to open.
In regards to DW vs. Opp, it is proven that DW is better when standing still and dpsing for an extended period of time but what about fights where you're forced to run in and out (aka Leotheras), is DW still better than Opportunity when you can burst in and burst out type of deal?
I love playing Mutilate and only changed to Cswords when in SSC because of the poison immune. From my experience (Pre TBC to 70 CDaggers, Mutilate until SSC, and Cswords now), Mutilate will beat out CDaggers except in fights where CDaggers can abuse BF+AR where both players are maintaining S&D 100% of the time. For Mutilate starting, I agree with the other poster that said to start with mutilate as the opener for more combo points. The starting cycle I used was Mutilate then wait for 70 Energy+, SnD, Mutilate to 4+ cps and Rupture.
I realize I may be wasting a few seconds waiting for the 70 energy but it makes the cycle a lot smoother imo. With this I am able to keep Rupture + FW + SnD up almost 100% of the time. Given, this was with T4 2 piece bonus, I never needed to do full 5 pt SnD but rarely (except for 3+crit strings) was I able to throw in extra Eviscerates. Is this correct or incorrect in play?
In regards to DW vs. Opp, it is proven that DW is better when standing still and dpsing for an extended period of time but what about fights where you're forced to run in and out (aka Leotheras), is DW still better than Opportunity when you can burst in and burst out type of deal?
Quote from Roguecraft 101 thread...
Originally Posted by Left
Lets assume you have equal damage range weapons in both hands:
Basically, the difference between "run in and out" fights and "tank and spank" fights is the percentage of your total dmg which is Mutilate vs white.. due to energy regening while you're away from the boss (and no auto attacks going off..). On an "in and out" type fight, your Mutilate dmg % will be higher (duh). Left's post however shows that even on just the Mutilate damage alone, DW is nearly equal to Opp. Nevermind that you'll still have at least 40% (being VERY generous here) white damage.. DW is the clear winner.
This means using the mutilate as an opener instead of ambush, cheap shot, or garrote? Is this worthwhile on an unpoisoned target?
That's a great question, and one I never actually considered when I was mutilate (looking back, I should have). As other posters have noted, the answer lies in whether the decreased damage and energy usage of a mutilate opener is made up by the increased CPs given back. Of course it all depends on whether you're soloing, pvping, or raiding (doesn't everything?). While solo, a cheap shot seems like a no-brainer, but in a raid...
Speaking specifically of raid situations, I would bank on a mutilate opener resulting in the best bang-for-buck. In the end though, I'd expect the dps loss/gain that results from this choice to be so small, it's probably worth leaving up to personal preference.
Speaking specifically of raid situations, I would bank on a mutilate opener resulting in the best bang-for-buck. In the end though, I'd expect the dps loss/gain that results from this choice to be so small, it's probably worth leaving up to personal preference.
Well, I have to admit, leaving anything up to personal preference isn't really the spirit of these forums. We're here to overthink and overanalyze everything to death.
That said, another aspect to consider when using Mutilate as an opener is the implications of the large energy cost. Going back to the worst case scenario I mentioned before (2 cp, no poison proc), you've still used 60 of your 110 energy. Depending on when your next energy tick will occur, odds are that you'll get at least 1-2 auto attacks in before your next Mutilate as well. This leads me to think that not having a poison up by the time you're ready for a second Mutilate is ready is an unlikely scenario.
Though, anyone who has ever played Mutilate can remember that time when they took a mob from 100%-0% without a single poison proc...
Depends on your mutilate build then right? If you have 4/5 Imp. Poisons, application really isn't much of an issue. Question: Is mutilate poisoned target calculated before the mutilate or before each hit? Like applying poisons on the first hit does the second hit (OH) get the bonus?
I'm pretty sure Mutilate dagger hits are counted simultaneously, even though it may not appear that way in your Combat Log or SCT. A full Mutilate is either poisoned, or not poisoned.
I'm pretty sure Mutilate dagger hits are counted simultaneously, even though it may not appear that way in your Combat Log or SCT. A full Mutilate is either poisoned, or not poisoned.
Yes, this is correct. You can't have one hand "poisoned" and the other hand "unpoisoned". As to SCT, the hits should both appear at the same time (although I guess it's a mod preference which way it's displayed).
Opportunity directly competes only with dual-wield spec though, because it's physically possible to spend the points 41/15/5 with opportunity, precision, and impS&D... but of course "physically possible" is about the best praise I can give such a spec.
I'm actually curious about how essential ImpS&D is to the spec. Naturally you get it anyways, because you build for DW spec and it's on the way, but I realized that it provides less benefit to a muta build than a normal combat build. For a combat build you need it to keep S&D up and to get some rupture time in. But for a muta build, you're swimming in combo points anyways, so would it be enough to keep rupture and S&D up full-time anyways? Basically, in a combat build impS&D means more S&D uptime and some rupture, but in a muta build is basically means occasional eviscerates, which are (obviously) not as good.
Like I said there's no real build without the talent, I'm just wondering how much worse its contribution is to the build than to a normal combat build.
Actually, I forgot to respec before last weeks raid (From 51/3/7) and I raided Hyjal with it. I found that best option was to to do 5cp SnD->3/4cp Rupture (only going for 5cp if you got unlucky with first mutilate being non-crit and ruthlessness not proc'ing, which for me doesn't happen often). With a little work I think it would be possible for a mutilate build to maintain 100% snd and rupture uptime. Whether or not this might be better than maintaining SnD and threading in ruptures/eviscerates is open to discussion. Does 1/3 or 2/3 SnD offer "better" dps?
Originally Posted by ekval
Imp. SnD from my experience only allows occasional Eviscerates to cycle, and I myself really hate Eviscerate due how much it sucks, so therefore I actually think Imp. SnD might even lower the dps output in Mutilate specs. Doesn't cycle with Imp. SnD go like SnD -> Rupture and occasional Eviscerates thrown in? My cycle with 43/0/18 only consist SnD and Rupture cycle, which allows in my mind higher Rupture uptime than wasting CP's sometimes for crap Eviscerate (and therefore lower Rupture uptime).
Eviscerate becomes decent I guess with the increased -armor on T6 gear (and ZA bow/ring combo). If your raid uses CoR, it's even better.
Originally Posted by Cyn
That's actually a good point, I pve'd as mutilate for everything from Naxx at patch release up to Teron Gorefiend. Combat typically equaled or bettered me on most fights with equal rogues. However on fights like Leotheras and Vashj, i would frequently come out a solid number 1 for I believe the reasons you raise.
I really wish they'd make mutilate a solid pve build, it really does feel like the more "roguey" talent spec, as well as more engaging than swords to play, although, I guess I wont be going back now that I have a warglaive, seems that Warglaives are the final nail in the coffin to the die hard dagger rogues.
Originally Posted by Aereus
I'd love to get a real test of Mutilate, but with the shadow of Warglaives looming hopefully on my horizon, I have to get Combat-related gemming for my T6 of course. (I'm the only Rogue, hooray? lol...)
A pipe-dream for me is that sometime before Lich King we're going to have T6 tokens rotting that I can build a 2nd set customized for Mutilate. Seeing as LK probably won't be out until at least Fall of this year ;\
I picked up a second chest and pants for that reason. Warglaives are indeed will be the nail in my coffin as well.
Originally Posted by Arindelest
Yes, this is correct. You can't have one hand "poisoned" and the other hand "unpoisoned". As to SCT, the hits should both appear at the same time (although I guess it's a mod preference which way it's displayed).
Actually I'm pretty sure that there's a "millisecond" between the two hits. Go try killing critters or low level mobs that die in one hit. It only shows "one" mutilate hit in the combat log.
So it might be possible that when mutilating: MH hits/procs poisn->OH hits, benefits from the poison and gets the extra damage modifier. Maybe.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
So it might be possible that when mutilating: MH hits/procs poisn->OH hits, benefits from the poison and gets the extra damage modifier. Maybe.
I tested this back when I was mutilating myself, simply by using DP on MH and WP on OH (or any other set of two poisons that leave a debuff). Whenever a mutilate lead to a DP proc on an unpoisoned mob, the OH hit from mutilate was not affected by the bonus damage multiplier.
I understand in a raid scenario, that mutilate lives on crit because more crit = more cps = more finishers = more FW uptime, etc...
But I'm wondering how one should gem Mutilate for PvP, and I haven't seen a good answer in the PvP forum.
Things to consider in PvP:
- Strict cycles are of course irrelevant, but more CPs does mean more FW uptime, and more Expose and SnD
- Resilience (assume 400) reduces crit chance by 10% and crit damage by 20%
- White damage is a smaller proportion of overall damage, though not by as large an amount as you might imagine
I'm currently gemmed for Deadliness (Hemo spec) even though I've been Muti a while now. This gives me: 1440 AP and 30.2% crit (since the PvP gear has almost zero hit, but loads of crit). At 20% crit in 'real' terms, should I be gemming fully for crit at the cost of AP, or is AP actually ok for Mutilate in PvP because it's unaffected by resilience.
3/3 Imp SnD + 5/5 Precision contributes less DPS than 5/5 Dual Wield Spec - and Mutilate gains even more from DWSpec as it benefits yellow attacks as well as white.
--edit--
The dps spreadsheet shows the 43/0/18 build as being only 1.5% behind the 41/20/0 build anyway. and only 0.3dps behind if you remove Improved SnD and Precision.
That said, the spredsheet does seem slightly poor at modelling Mutilate cycles as it does indeed show lower dps when you tick 3/3 Improved Slice and Dice. Though as you said at the very least the talent will add zero dps since you can just ignore the increased SnD uptime.
With the 41/20/0 build not including Improved SnD the dps of the 43/0/18 build is still only 3% behind.
Basically Dual Wield Spec is undoubtedly the best talent in the lower half of the Combat tree but if it were the only talent that high in the tree that added to dps then it would make 41/20/0 builds much less desirable. Having now looked more closely at it, however, I do agree that it alone is worth spending those 30 points.
--/edit--
I also have a slight issue with the characterization that all reasonable raid builds need those 20 points in combat. It's true, they contribute a lot of damage; but, for example, the first 16 points of Assassination provides just as much. It's not so much that those talent points singlehandedly make or break a raid build; it's just that after you get whatever talents define your spec (Mutilate, or Hemo, or whatever), the most effective use of leftover points are dumping them in the first 11 points of assassination and anything left into combat.
I never said any reasonable raiding build, I said "any raiding build where you genuinely want to maximise your dps." If you don't take those first 20 points in Combat, as well as the first 11 points in Assassination then you can always get more dps by respeccing. That's borne out not only in the theorycraft but also in the spreadsheets. It's the reason we have the trispec Hemo build instead of 0/40/21, it's why Combat Swords takes xx/4x/0 builds instead of 0/4x/xx. The lower half of the Combat tree and the lower third of the Assassination tree simply give so much dps that any build not containing both is sub-optimal for raiding purposes.
Don't get me wrong - I'm in the camp that thinks it's 'viable' to do, say, 90% of what you possibly could do if you respecced, but it's undeniable fact that you do more dps when you take those 3 early Combat talents. That's all I was really trying to say.
Last edited by hannigaholic : 01/05/08 at 10:22 AM.
My recent perusal of the Armor Penetration discussion thread & this thread just so happened to coincide with getting some Armor Pen daggers and other gear. I've started to wonder (if given a decent amount of armor pen) that a 41/0/20 (while trying to take advantage of serrated blades with the 20 points in subtlety) would be at least as competitive as a 41/20/0 build.
I must admit that it is fun to think of at least ~800 or higher armor pen + imp serrated blades + executioner + imp expose armor and the stealth friendly talents in the subtlety tree that you would pick up with that setup. I can't imagine actually spec'ing for it though, especially considering we are working on Bloodboil at the moment and the combat swords dps for the buff during the encounter is just too much to pass up.
Well, I have to admit, leaving anything up to personal preference isn't really the spirit of these forums. We're here to overthink and overanalyze everything to death.
Ok you win I just meant that a clear winner in this case might not be apparent, so for the time being it might just be worth playing around with to see how each feels. I've pulled out my stick though, so let's start beating...
Originally Posted by Ozzmar
That said, another aspect to consider when using Mutilate as an opener is the implications of the large energy cost...
With an unstunnable mob, opening with Ambush or Mutilate are the two only real raid options imo, and both cost 60 energy so we can ignore that cost in this comparison. Base Ambush does 250% weapon dmg + 230 to the target and grants 1 CP. Mutilate (in this case only) will do weapon dmg + 101 for each hand and award 2 CP. Both should have the same base crit %, but I would claim that you'll see more crits (twice as many?) with mutilate, thereby granting an additional CP. Additionally, Lethality grats 30% increased dmg to mutilate, but not Ambush. Let's see if I can manage the math for this (currently MH only) assuming everything other than the actual skill involved is equal:
Did I do that correctly? Is anyone able to do the math for the Mutilate OH assuming 41/20/0?
NOTE: As soon as I posted I realized I didn't factor in an estimated AP, which would scale the weapon damage and therefore the percentage increase of these openers differently (favoring Ambush). I'll modify the calculation with that info in the near future.
Last edited by Professor Hurt : 01/05/08 at 2:27 PM.
I'm usually reluctant to, but I will sometimes. Obviously Shiv is usually the "best" choice, but there's something to be said for opening with Mutilate.
1. Shiv costs at least 33 energy, 34 or 35 if you're using anything other than Sunblade. Grants one combo point. 100% chance to proc poison.
2. Mutilate always costs 60 energy, but hits with both daggers (30 energy per dagger, if you will). Two combo points, and 30-40% chance to proc on each hand, depending on your spec.
If you're just starting a long DPS cycle on a boss, Shiv would be smarter. If you need to get a Rupture ticking as quickly as possible because you're going to have to run out of melee range again soon, it may be worth the gamble. Worst case scenario, you get two points and no poison procs. Best case, you get three points and poison, which may not get stacked to 5 before you have to run anyway.
I'm guessing someone who is more savvy with exponents than myself could explain the chances (and potential payoffs) for using Mutilate to open.
I always thought that one of the main points of using shiv as an opener was to do a Shiv + SND to get Find Weakness up as quickly as possible and then blow the bulk of your energy bar with Mutilate now that you have the increased damage. So I imagine the cycle would look something along the lines of Shiv + SND, Mutilate x2 + Rupture..
Good to see some discussion on this, having just downed Vashj with KT in our sights I am looking forward to being able to go back to the spec I loved so much pre TBC.
Our guild is by no means "hardcore" so I am free to spec however I choose as long as none of the rogues are consistenly sub top 5 no one bats an eyelid...but I noticed some possible issues with the KT fight, the weapons need DPS'ing and are poiosn immune? is that accurate?
Im essentially either going 41/20, 11/28/22 maces or 41/0/20 as I find those to be the most entertaining, and if I work my little socks off they remain competitive if not #1 on the epeen meters.
In dealing with the weapons on the KT fight as a rogue you will likely be assigned to kicking/stunning the mace - which is the weapon that can heal the other weapons. I was actually a Hemo/Swords spec when we were doing KT and it wasn't really an issue. Having BF was nice though, as you get to help with the AoE dmg on all of the weapons.
Likely terribad. That means he's missing out on 5% hit, DW spec, and Imp SnD just to get 540 ignore armor. Opportunity is clearly inferior to DW spec, because not only does DW spec almost equal the dmg gain to Mutilate from Opp, but then you have 25% more white dmg which is 55% of your overall damage as Mutilate.
Why he would choose to be without 2 of the most important raid talents (Imp Snd and DW spec) is beyond me.
Yeah I know the math says it would suck, but I wondered if their was some gear / stat event horizon where it actually worked, like the combat hemo thing where you hit certain levels of gear and suddenly it was competitive.
But yeah, I think for where I am (not farming illidan) I should go with the math
01/04/08, 12:30 AM
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