Likely terribad. That means he's missing out on 5% hit, DW spec, and Imp SnD just to get 540 ignore armor. Opportunity is clearly inferior to DW spec, because not only does DW spec almost equal the dmg gain to Mutilate from Opp, but then you have 25% more white dmg which is 55% of your overall damage as Mutilate.
Why he would choose to be without 2 of the most important raid talents (Imp Snd and DW spec) is beyond me.
Like I earlier stated I don't think myself that Imp. SnD adds anything to Mutilate cycles after you get enough crit to maintain 4+ SnD + Rupture cycle without Imp. SnD. Once you obtain enough crit Imp. SnD only adds few Eviscerates now and then, which in my mind isn't worth of dumbing CP's. I much rather have near 100%/100% SnD + Rupture cycle than 100%/60%/60% SnD + Rupture + Eviscerate cycle, got the point probably.
About 43/0/18 spec, it is not Combat Sword good in PvE, but quite sure it is near equal to 41/20/0 if not over in raids. Precision doesn't add that much for Mutilate, Imp. SnD value I already explained above so it comes down to DWSpec vs Opportunity + Serrated Blades. Granted, DWSpecced Mutilate hits are near to Opportunity specced Mutilate hits, but Opportunity Mutilate crits are totally from other planet than DWSpecced Mutilate crits. When I'm sitting over 50% critrate in raids (which means almost all of my Mutilates will crit) the Opportunity isn't that bad.
Add in ArP and 30% Rupture damage from Serrated Blades and I think it's quite equal if not better than Combat variant. And it's surely tons more fun and rewarding to play than Combat Swords, heck, it feels even better than Combat Mutilate for some reason (maybe the 5k Mutilate numbers).
Like I earlier stated I don't think myself that Imp. SnD adds anything to Mutilate cycles after you get enough crit to maintain 4+ SnD + Rupture cycle without Imp. SnD. Once you obtain enough crit Imp. SnD only adds few Eviscerates now and then, which in my mind isn't worth of dumbing CP's. I much rather have near 100%/100% SnD + Rupture cycle than 100%/60%/60% SnD + Rupture + Eviscerate cycle, got the point probably.
About 43/0/18 spec, it is not Combat Sword good in PvE, but quite sure it is near equal to 41/20/0 if not over in raids. Precision doesn't add that much for Mutilate, Imp. SnD value I already explained above so it comes down to DWSpec vs Opportunity + Serrated Blades. Granted, DWSpecced Mutilate hits are near to Opportunity specced Mutilate hits, but Opportunity Mutilate crits are totally from other planet than DWSpecced Mutilate crits. Unbuffed with 41/20/0 my mainhand Mutilate crits for ~1700 while with Opportunity ones crit for ~2300. Add in offhand crits and the difference becomes quite big. When I'm sitting over 50% critrate in raids (which means almost all of my Mutilates will crit) the Opportunity isn't that bad.
Add in ArP and 30% Rupture damage from Serrated Blades and I think it's quite equal if not better than Combat variant. And it's surely tons more fun and rewarding to play than Combat Swords, heck, it feels even better than Combat Mutilate for some reason (maybe the 5k Mutilate numbers).
Any chance of some WWS stuff as I mentioned?
Oh and do you think it's your gear level that makes it work?
Don't have WWS, and yes, T6 trinket is probably required to run high uptime SnD + Rupture cycle without drops (or just decent critrate otherwise). The spec might be behind Combat Swords in pure DPS but I value FleetFooted and QuickRecovery quite high when more and more fights are interrupted ones and require moving + involve AoE damage. I never wanted to make my Mutilate spec "like combat" and I think yellow damage is the power of Mutilate (and good scaling of Mutilate talent itself).
43/0/18 is like earlier "hyped" 3x/0/3x spec without dropping cycles issue.
Like I earlier stated I don't think myself that Imp. SnD adds anything to Mutilate cycles after you get enough crit to maintain 4+ SnD + Rupture cycle without Imp. SnD. Once you obtain enough crit Imp. SnD only adds few Eviscerates now and then, which in my mind isn't worth of dumbing CP's. I much rather have near 100%/100% SnD + Rupture cycle than 100%/60%/60% SnD + Rupture + Eviscerate cycle, got the point probably.
About 43/0/18 spec, it is not Combat Sword good in PvE, but quite sure it is near equal to 41/20/0 if not over in raids. Precision doesn't add that much for Mutilate, Imp. SnD value I already explained above so it comes down to DWSpec vs Opportunity + Serrated Blades. Granted, DWSpecced Mutilate hits are near to Opportunity specced Mutilate hits, but Opportunity Mutilate crits are totally from other planet than DWSpecced Mutilate crits. When I'm sitting over 50% critrate in raids (which means almost all of my Mutilates will crit) the Opportunity isn't that bad.
Add in ArP and 30% Rupture damage from Serrated Blades and I think it's quite equal if not better than Combat variant. And it's surely tons more fun and rewarding to play than Combat Swords, heck, it feels even better than Combat Mutilate for some reason (maybe the 5k Mutilate numbers).
Just a couple of points.
1) Precision adds more than you might think. It's 5 / Your current hitrate. Say you had no +hit from gear. Precision would add 5/74 = 6.76% to your white damage (if your white damage was currently 55% of a theoretical 1000dps then you would be adding 37dps. That's a 3.7% overall dps boost from Precision.
At a base hit chance of 95% and white damage making up the same 55% you end up adding 5/95 = 5.26% of 55% of 1000 which is 29dps. That's still 2.9%. Even if white damage only made a 45% contribution you'd be adding 5/45 * 0.45 * 1000 = 24dps or 2.4% at the absolute minimum contribution of precision to a Mutilate build.
It's not huge but it's definitely dignificant enough to consider that Opportunity and Serrated Blades are not competing against just Dual Wield Spec.
2) "I think it's quite equal or better..." is not fact. The spreadhseets as well as all accepted theorycraft says that the 20 points in the Combat tree are unequivocally more dps than the 20 points in the Subtlety tree. The difference is, however, far from huge. As I pointed out on the last page even the spreadsheets can only come up with a 3% difference between 41/20/0 and 43/0/18 (Redoing the test after regemming for agility the difference rises to 3.2% due to the slightly increased boost from Precision at lower base hit levels).
I think it's perfectly valid to choose the Assassination/Subtlety version due to playstyle preference and stealth buffs but to claim that the build is capable of doing more damage than the Assassination/Combat version is simply wrong.
One thing I have just noticed that is very interesting is that, according the the dps spreadsheet, it is worth dumping the 2/4 Netherblade bonus to take an otherwise superior item, even when you don't gain any other set bonus from doing so (so going from 2/5 Netherblade to 1/5 Deathmantle results in a dps boost). But I suspect that is due wholly to the innacurate modelling of the effect that extra Slince and Dice time has on Mutilate cycles. Bbasically I think the spreadsheet is giving the Netherblade bonus a negative value for Mutilate builds, when we all know that at the very least it will add zero damage.
Last edited by hannigaholic : 01/06/08 at 7:01 AM.
Well as I lack the BT trinket and still have alot of work to do before I get 30% crit unbuffed I am staying with 41/20
And once I get used to pvp without MoD and camo I will probably stay with it, I will post some WWS over the next few weeks for those curious to see how it performs at T5 lvl
One thing I have just noticed that is very interesting is that, according the the dps spreadsheet, it is worth dumping the 2/4 Netherblade bonus to take an otherwise superior item, even when you don't gain any other set bonus from doing so (so going from 2/5 Netherblade to 1/5 Deathmantle results in a dps boost). But I suspect that is due wholly to the innacurate modelling of the effect that extra Slince and Dice time has on Mutilate cycles. Bbasically I think the spreadsheet is giving the Netherblade bonus a negative value for Mutilate builds, when we all know that at the very least it will add zero damage.
Or the effect of 2pc t4 is so negligible for mutilate builds that any upgrade in stats is worth taking.
I noticed some possible issues with the KT fight, the weapons need DPS'ing and are poiosn immune? is that accurate?
I learned Kael as Muti and this was a non-issue for me. We still had the weapons down before the Advisors broke out, and even though my personal damage was a bit lower, I contributed two useful things:
1) I had Imp Expose and a Feral Druid tanking the weapons I was on, so I was able to get a quick Expose up for the rest of the melee DPS.
2) The weapons are all stunnable. A 5-point Imp KS (provided nobody else has put it on diminishing returns) helps control the phase and adds raid DPS.
One plus in Mutilate's favor is that it's probably the spec that adds Expose Armor into its rotation with the least amount of fuss. You all Expose when you have a Pally or Bear tank, right?
Or the effect of 2pc t4 is so negligible for mutilate builds that any upgrade in stats is worth taking.
Lets not start throwing the DPS spreadsheet around as a decent resource for Mutilate. :P
2/4 T4 adds a large amount of slack to your Mutilate cycles. What's a 1-CP S&D with the bonus, like 16 seconds? I got my T4 just before respec'ing and then disappearing for the holidays, but for the few fights I had it, it allowed me to shift to refreshing S&D with Ruthless procs almost exclusively. My results can only be taken as anecdotal but in my typical group on a typical raid night, I saw a DPS increase from going T5 gloves, Skulker's Greaves to T4 gloves, T4 pants.
1) Precision adds more than you might think. It's 5 / Your current hitrate. Say you had no +hit from gear. Precision would add 5/74 = 6.76% to your white damage (if your white damage was currently 55% of a theoretical 1000dps then you would be adding 37dps. That's a 3.7% overall dps boost from Precision.
It's actually more complicated than that ;p
Due to the combat table, increasing crit by 1% will increase white dps the same as 1% hit. Also having more crit will actually reduce the % dps increase of additional hit (but not changed the # dps). However glancing blows also reduce your white dps as well, making it: <relative white dps increae from 1% hit or crit> = 0.01 / (1 + <crit> - <miss> - <dodge> - <glance chance>*<glance reduction>)
Actual white DPS increase from 1% hit/crit is obviously <white dps without miss/crit/glance> * 0.01
Like I earlier stated I don't think myself that Imp. SnD adds anything to Mutilate cycles after you get enough crit to maintain 4+ SnD + Rupture cycle without Imp. SnD. Once you obtain enough crit Imp. SnD only adds few Eviscerates now and then, which in my mind isn't worth of dumbing CP's. I much rather have near 100%/100% SnD + Rupture cycle than 100%/60%/60% SnD + Rupture + Eviscerate cycle, got the point probably.
About 43/0/18 spec, it is not Combat Sword good in PvE, but quite sure it is near equal to 41/20/0 if not over in raids. Precision doesn't add that much for Mutilate, Imp. SnD value I already explained above so it comes down to DWSpec vs Opportunity + Serrated Blades. Granted, DWSpecced Mutilate hits are near to Opportunity specced Mutilate hits, but Opportunity Mutilate crits are totally from other planet than DWSpecced Mutilate crits. When I'm sitting over 50% critrate in raids (which means almost all of my Mutilates will crit) the Opportunity isn't that bad.
Add in ArP and 30% Rupture damage from Serrated Blades and I think it's quite equal if not better than Combat variant. And it's surely tons more fun and rewarding to play than Combat Swords, heck, it feels even better than Combat Mutilate for some reason (maybe the 5k Mutilate numbers).
Too much of this is subjective opinion, this is a forum of people who therorycraft everything.
You probably came to this forum because of the quality of information it provided, not because someone felt strongly about how something works.
Statements like I don't think myself or I think it's quite equal with no maths or a WWS to back you up aren't helping the discussion.
It's actually more complicated than that ;p
Due to the combat table, increasing crit by 1% will increase white dps the same as 1% hit. Also having more crit will actually reduce the % dps increase of additional hit (but not changed the # dps). However glancing blows also reduce your white dps as well, making it: <relative white dps increae from 1% hit or crit> = 0.01 / (1 + <crit> - <miss> - <dodge> - <glance chance>*<glance reduction>)
Actual white DPS increase from 1% hit/crit is obviously <white dps without miss/crit/glance> * 0.01
You're right - In the spirit of completeness I'll do the thing properly (If anything looks wrong please point it out)
We'll assume white damage to be 55% of your total dps again, and we'll also assume 30% critrate in a raid environment just for ease of calculation.
At 0% +Hit (IE 28% missrate against boss level mobs) the attack table looks like this:
Miss 28%
Glance 24%, doing 75% damage (I can't remember where I saw these figures so I could be wrong)
Dodge 6.5% (As best estimate)
Crit 30%
Hit 11.5%
Over 200 swings (to get whole numbers from the 0.5% chances) we get:
56 misses
48 glancing blows (equivalent to 36 hits)
13 dodges
60 crits (equivalent to 120 hits)
23 hits
Total = 179 hits worth of damage
Adding Precision makes the table:
Miss 23%
Glace 24%, doing 75% damage
Dodge 6.5%
Crit 30%
Hit 16.5%
Over 200 swings we get:
46 misses
48 glancing blows (equivalent to 36 hits)
13 dodges
60 crits (equivalent to 120 hits)
33 hits
Total = 189 hits worth of damage
That's a 5.6% increase in white dps, or 3.1% of total dps. But remember at this level of Plus Hit (IE anything below 9%) you are also adding to yellow dps by taking precision.
At 95% base Hit (+23% Hit from gear) we get the following attack tables:
Miss 5%
Glance 24%, doing 75% damage
Dodge 6.5%
Crit 30%
Hit 34.5%
Over 200 swings we get:
10 misses
48 glancing blows (equivalent to 36 hits)
13 dodges
60 crits (equivalent to 120 hits)
69 hits
Total = 225 hits worth of damage
Adding Precision:
Miss 0%
Glance 24%, doing 75% damage (I can't remember where I saw these figures so I could be wrong)
Dodge 6.5% (As best estimate)
Crit 30%
Hit 39.5%
Over 200 swings we get:
0 misses
48 glancing blows (equivalent to 36 hits)
13 dodges
60 crits (equivalent to 120 hits)
79 hits
Total = 235 hits worth of damage
4.4% extra white dps or 2.4% total dps
If the critrate rises to 50% (since I doubt anybody actually acheives such numbers), you have enough Expertise to negate all dodges and have somehow raised your yellow damage such that white dps only accounts for 45% of your total then the final attack tables look like this:
Miss 5%
Glance 24%, doing 75% damage
Dodge 0%
Crit 50%
Hit 21%
Over 200 swings we get:
10 misses
48 glancing blows (equivalent to 36 hits)
0 dodges
100 crits (equivalent to 200 hits)
42 hits
Total = 278 hits worth of damage
Adding Precision:
Miss 0%
Glance 24%, doing 75% damage
Dodge 0%
Crit 50%
Hit 26%
Over 200 swings we get:
0 misses
48 glancing blows (equivalent to 36 hits)
0 dodges
100 crits (equivalent to 200 hits)
52 hits
Total = 288 hits worth of damage
3.6% of white dps or 1.6% of total dps
So precision (in this particular model) always adds 10 hits worth of white dps and this is worth an absolute, outside theoretical minimum of 1.6% of total dps. Most people will see something between a 2 and 3% increase in overall dps simply from choosing the talent. It is most definitely significant for Mutilate builds, it's just less so than for Combat builds. This is because not only does white damage makes up a greater percentage of the dps generated by Combat builds, it also adds to Combat Potency procs.
Too much of this is subjective opinion, this is a forum of people who therorycraft everything.
You probably came to this forum because of the quality of information it provided, not because someone felt strongly about how something works.
Statements like I don't think myself or I think it's quite equal with no maths or a WWS to back you up aren't helping the discussion.
I thought the thread topic was 'Discussion', and considering we don't have any "good" Mutilate spreadsheet or simulator, my intend was to provide some info how I felt 43/0/18 and other Mutilate specs work in Illidan farming guild. I try to get WWS report but due lack of raids and few days off personally I haven't raided much lately.
Thanks for bringing this spec up Ekval. It's cool to see the potential of specs that are often dismissed too quickly.
Hannig,
Do you have any idea how much the passive armor mitigation from Serrated Blades would compensate for that (approximate) loss of DPS from Precision? Obviously it will make a bigger difference against low-armor mobs, but will it ever come close to closing that gap?
On a related note, another thing I was pondering was if Serrated Blades would make Executioner worth taking for a 43/0/18 spec. My immediate hunch is that it probably wouldn't due to Mutilate synergizing so wonderfully with 120 agility, but it's hard to say. The addition of Improved Expose to the spec makes things interesting when you're paired with a druid or paladin tank. I think it's at least worth investigating.
One final thought is, how much worse will 43/0/18 be against poison-immune mobs? 41/20/0 definitely sucks, but it seems that 43/0/18 would be even worse due to the 18 points in Sub focusing more on your Mutilate damage rather than ALL of your damage like the 20 in Combat does.
I'm rubbish at armor-related stuff. All I know is that the more passive Armor Pen you get, the better each extra point becomes, so the effectiveness Serrated Blades scales with Armor Pen gear.
I think 43/0/18 builds will suffer doubly on poison-immune mobs because (unless I'm mistaken) they're also all bleed-immune (Hydross and Void Reaver are the two that spring to mind). That said, both builds would suffer relatively equally anyway, since the difference in their dps will be very close to start with.
As Aldriana has pointed out though, the only real way to test Mutilate build dps is though a dedicated combat simulation rather than simply adding a dps value to certain talents. Specifically I think the one that is tough to model is Seal Fate - I think that's the main problem the spreadsheets have with it. I can't see how any talents would work in any different way for Mutilate than they would for Combat builds so I see no reason to suspect that the 43/0/18 builds would suddenly start outperforming 41/20/0 even when such a combat simulation becomes available. If anything I suspect that the influence of Improved Slice and Dice will be shown to be at positive, instead of negative as is the current case. Even without the 2/4 Netherblade bonus (but with the Improved Slice and Dice talent) it's easy to run a 4-5s/4-5r/4-5e cycle. With Netherblade it's simply easy to run 5s/5r/5e (shivving or SSing from 4-5 wherever necessary) with plenty of slack.
Just wondering about choosing Executioner over Mongoose for the 43/0/18 version of the mutilate build. As the idea of using the points in subtlety is to take advantage of SB/armor pen and get a few pvp friendly talents what is thought of taking Executioner to further stack armor penetration? It does seem like Mongoose better serves a mutilate build but with the armor pen & pvp aspect of that build I am curious to know what the data/thoughts are.
A bit off topic as far as DPS is concerned but in spending points filling out talents for the 41-3/0/18-20 variation of the mutilate build I was wondering if someone knew the differences in the movement speed talents.
Does the fleet footed 15% movement speed increase work in stealth thus making the camo talents pointless? I can't imagine that is the case considering that 2/2 FF would be so OP compared to 5/5 camo.
For those of you talking about the 43/0/18 version where are most of you spending the 2 filler points?
One final thought is, how much worse will 43/0/18 be against poison-immune mobs? 41/20/0 definitely sucks, but it seems that 43/0/18 would be even worse due to the 18 points in Sub focusing more on your Mutilate damage rather than ALL of your damage like the 20 in Combat does.
I think it's safe to say that all Mutilate specs kinda suck on either poison immune or bleed immune bosses. I don't know which of the two spec sucks more or less on immune bosses but I think that's quite irrelevant after all. If my main concern would be VR or Hydross I wouldn't spec Mutilate in first place. Glad that in MH/BT only Supremus is bleed immune, and even that boss is poisonable + melee damage ain't that big issue on it.
Originally Posted by Asherz
A bit off topic as far as DPS is concerned but in spending points filling out talents for the 41-3/0/18-20 variation of the mutilate build I was wondering if someone new the differences in the movement speed talents.
Does the fleet footed 15% movement speed increase work in stealth thus making the camo talents pointless? I can't imagine that is the case considering that 2/2 FF would be so OP compared to 5/5 camo.
For those of you talking about the 43/0/18 version where are most of you spending the 2 filler points?
FF and Camouflage effects seem similar on paper but do different things. FleetFooted increases your movement speed while Camouflage decreases Stealth movement speed penalty. They both stack and you can archieve ~97% Stealth speed with 2/2 FF + 5/5 Camouflage, aka almost normal running speed without enchants.
As fillers in Subtlety tree I usually take 5/5 MoD for PvP purposes, 2/2 Dirty Tricks and 3/5 Camouflage. There ain't many better solutions, I'm not big fan of either SoH nor Initiative. Initiative seems utterly weak talent for 3 points and if you do CS -> Mut you might end up wasting CP with Initiative if your Mutilate crits (3CP from CS, 3CP from Mut crit).
Been playing around with 43/0/18 talent contribution once again and still can't decide between 3/5 Imp. Poisons vs 3/3 Imp. KS. Quite much leaning towards Imp. Poisons even thought it doesn't seem to add much on paper.
With Netherblade it's simply easy to run 5s/5r/5e (shivving or SSing from 4-5 wherever necessary) with plenty of slack.
... and the DPS you lose from using Shiv without IP, or (God help us) SS with a dagger will obliterate any marginal gain you might get from the changed cycle.
... and the DPS you lose from using Shiv without IP, or (God help us) SS with a dagger will obliterate any marginal gain you might get from the changed cycle.
True, you may as well just stick to the 4-5s/4-5r/4-5e, but you still have more slack for chains of non-procs, though you'd be surprised at the damage per energy of talented Sinister Strike, even with daggers (which I've taken for those times when you absolutely have to dps from the fron - against Leo's Inner Demons for example).
The following numbers are from ~one month of simulated combat. Full tier 6 gear, Fang of Vashj and Tracker's Blade with Mongoose, all reasonable buffs. Spec: 41/20/0. The finisher priority list is Slice and Dice (1+ cp), Rupture (3+ cp), Eviscerate (4+ cp). This means refreshing Slice and Dice whenever it runs out, no matter how few combo points you have. Rupture only with at least 3 combo points if it has run out. Eviscerate if your energy would overflow and you have at least 4 combo points. In the rare case none of these apply, use Mutilate (wasting combo points is better than wasting energy, and Mutilate is better than a low-cp Eviscerate).
The exact numbers are open to change (need a volunteer to review the sim's math!), but should serve as a reasonable guide to the relative worth of talents. I've rounded all numbers to the nearest whole, because I don't have the patience right now to run much longer simulations for slightly more accurate numbers.
Baseline: 2119 dps
-5 Dual Wield Specialization, +5 Opportunity: 1950
no combat, +5 Opportunity and +3 Serrated Blades: 1935
Back to 41/20, let's drop some combat talents without taking anything in return to see their value:
-5 Dual Wield Specialization: 1879 (60 dps per talent point)
-3 Improved Slice and Dice: 2086 (11 dps per talent point)
-5 Precision: 2067 (10 dps per talent point)
Same for the assassination tree:
-5 Find Weakness: 2073 (9 dps per talent point)
+3 Improved Eviscerate: 2123 (1 dps per talent point)
-5 Lethality: 2080 (8 dps per talent point)
-3 Improved Poisons: 2115 (1 dps per talent point)
-5 Malice: 2017 (20 dps per talent point)
-2 Quick Recovery: 2116 (1 dps per talent point)
-1 Relentless Strikes: 1973 (146 dps per talent point)
-1 Ruthlessness: 2102 (17 dps per talent point)
-5 Seal Fate: 2070 (9 dps per talent point)
-5 Vile Poisons: 2105 (3 dps per talent point)
We can also try changing our 'cycle'.
Envenom instead of Eviscerate: 2120 (+1 dps)
Rupture at 2+ instead of 3+: 2116 (-3 dps)
Rupture at 4+ instead of 3+: 2126 (+7 dps... oops)
Rupture at 5+ instead of 3+: 2116 (-3 dps)
Eviscerate at 3+ instead of 4+: 2102 (-17 dps)
Eviscerate at 5+ instead of 4+: 2127 (+8 dps... uhoh)
Slice and Dice at 2+, letting it drop sometimes: 2120 (+1 dps)
Slice and Dice at 3+, letting it drop more often: 2119
And last, without trinkets.
Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality: 2017 (102 dps)
Dragonspine Trophy: 2057 (62 dps).
Well, in attempt to start to answer my own question about Mongoose and Executioner at the most rudimentary level (about all I can do, personally), I just want to throw out some basic numbers on seeing what these two enchants would do for a 43/0/18 spec against a couple average raid bosses (6200 or 7700 armor are most common).
For easy numbers, I'll just assume a level 70 rogue against a level 73 raid boss and we'll say his average Mutilates are hitting for 750 / 400.
So against a level 73 raid boss, we'd be looking at Armor / Armor + 11,960 (taken from these forums)
Serrated Blades would give us 8*73 = 584 passive armor penetration. So a standard Mutilate for this rogue against average raid bosses would have our average boss armor values of 6200 and 7700 down to 5616 and 7116, respectively.
The part of the damage equation that AP directly affects is:
(Attack Power / 14) * Weapon speed
Mongoose
So, (120 AP / 14)*1.7 = 14.57 = about 14 unmitigated damage added to mainhand, 7 to offhand (no Dual Wield Spec.)
Against the aforementioned bosses, we'd see approximately
764 * .681 = 520.28 main hand
407 * .681 = 277.17 off hand
764 * .627 = 479.03 main hand
407 * .627 = 255.19 off hand
Executioner
An Executioner proc would lower the boss's effective armor values to
5616 - 840 = 4776
7116 - 840 = 6276
Thus, their effective mitigation would be lessened to
4776 / 16736 = .2854 = about 28.5% mitigation
6276 / 18,236 = .3442 = about 34.4% mitigation
750 * .715 = 536.25 main hand
400 * .715 = 286.0 off hand
750 * .656 = 492.0 main hand
400 * .656 = 262.4 off hand
So, at a very quick glance, it looks like Executioner would provide a reasonably big damage buff. This is, of course, completely ignoring the added Crit from Mongoose's 120 Agility and the fact that Executioner is unable to stack like Mongoose (last I knew). I definitely won't be drawing any conclusions based on this, but I thought I could at least try to get some discussion started.
Those numbers overall seem rather high - but I could certainly attribute that to just an overly high number of raid buffs. The percentage changes with various talents at first glance seem fairly inline with what one would expect. Seal Fate only 9dps per point though? Can't wait to see how it was coded.
Pretty high number of buffs, yeah. Group setup: dps warrior (talented Battle Shout with Solarian's Sapphire, Blood Frenzy), feral druid (Leader of the Pack), enhancement shaman (100% Unleashed Rage uptime, talented Strength of Earth Totem, talented Windfury Totem, no GoA twisting, one Heroism), two rogues. The raid also has a survival hunter with 800 buffed agility; hunter with Improved Hunter's Mark; holy paladin with Improved Blessing of Might and keeping Improved Seal of the Crusader up 100% of the time; paladin with Blessing of Kings; druid with Improved Gift of the Wild. The rogue is using a Flask of Relentless Assault - though an elixir might be better - agility food, Deadly Poison on the offhand, and Haste Potion every cooldown.
I did not count a moonkin's Improved Faerie Fire, retribution paladin's Improved Sanctity Aura, Curse of Recklessness, Stormstrike, Elixir of Demonslaying, scrolls and world buffs. All in all I think it's a setup that a raid could reasonably have on a good night.
Also, does Misery affect Deadly Poison or Envenom?
Couldn't things like a Haste Potion every cooldown seriously skew results? Or certainly be significant. Surely no one actually does this regularly?
Once the maths are checked, it'd be great to get a similar breakdown in a more modest situation (say 10 or 5 man simulated buff levels), and, of course, completely unbuffed 'solo' DPS.
Pretty high number of buffs, yeah. Group setup: dps warrior (talented Battle Shout with Solarian's Sapphire, Blood Frenzy), feral druid (Leader of the Pack), enhancement shaman (100% Unleashed Rage uptime, talented Strength of Earth Totem, talented Windfury Totem, no GoA twisting, one Heroism), two rogues. The raid also has a survival hunter with 800 buffed agility; hunter with Improved Hunter's Mark; holy paladin with Improved Blessing of Might and keeping Improved Seal of the Crusader up 100% of the time; paladin with Blessing of Kings; druid with Improved Gift of the Wild. The rogue is using a Flask of Relentless Assault - though an elixir might be better - agility food, Deadly Poison on the offhand, and Haste Potion every cooldown.
I did not count a moonkin's Improved Faerie Fire, retribution paladin's Improved Sanctity Aura, Curse of Recklessness, Stormstrike, Elixir of Demonslaying, scrolls and world buffs. All in all I think it's a setup that a raid could reasonably have on a good night.
Also, does Misery affect Deadly Poison or Envenom?
I seriously doubt that Improved Judgement of the Crusader being up all the time is a reasonable assumption. Personally, I have never seen imp. JoC ever put on a boss in a raid setting. JoW is hard enough for the paladins to keep up.
Furthermore, having both a Feral Druid and an Enhancement Shaman in the same group seems rare--though I sure love it when that happens.
Are you counting *regular* faerie fire as a debuff?
Whether or not judgements are up is usually a simple question of whether or not you have a (living) retribution paladin. After seeing their share of melee-unfriendly fights paladins give up even trying to manage it.
01/06/08, 5:40 AM
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