Hello folks,

As of 2.4 i bought [The Mutilator] and just got [Boundless Agony].
As Combatsword i usually looked on shadowpanther.net for comapring items, which is based on aep-calculations for combatsword i suppose.
Now, i'm wondering for which i should go. The Spreadsheet tells me that boundless agony is ahead a small amount of dps, the other spreadsheet doesnt include the mutilator yet.
On the other hand i am wondering how low i can/should go with hitrating, as i only have 230 now, with boundless agony...
( my armory link )
So basically i am switching 24 hit with 24 crit, leaving 44 AP and 3 dps but gaining 210 ArP.

If you're using Dontmindme's spreadsheet, the Talents tab has a Calculate AEP & Optimize button at the bottom which will tell you approximately what each stat will give you.

Though, the latest version of the spreadsheet that I'm using has [The Mutilator] in it. Maybe you need to upgrade?

And a minor sidenote, [Swift Blade of Uncertainty] actually yields higher DPS in my spreadsheet than either of the previously mentioned daggers.

the swift blade actually gives me 10 dps less, mutilator 7, and boundless agony comes out top.
Seems i was a bit confused about the aep-values, but as i took a look again at the spreadsheet today, everything makes sense.
I was a bit suprised that boundless agony comes out on top, though (i only took the item because otherwise it would have been disenchanted).

Given the mechanics of mutilate there are very few circumstances where two daggers with equal stats and DPS values would work out so that the faster dagger, [Swift Blade of Uncertainty], is better than the slower dagger, [The Mutilator].

[Boundless Agony] is a more difficult case, however, than either of the above because the value of armor penetration scales exponentially. The best way to determine which is best is, as always, to use the sheet. If the sheet is putting out 5-10 DPS difference it means your gear, combined with the raid buffs you have setup, has enough armor penetration from other sources that the 210 armor ignore makes up for the stat and DPS differences.

Given the nature of armor penetration it might be a good idea to compare the weapons at different boss armor values and with different raid buffs. It's possible that on a high armor boss and with only two locks in the raid, so no curse of recklessness, that the value would drop enough so that one of the other daggers pull ahead. It would be best, in this case, to keep both dagger and switch based on raid debuffs and boss armor values. You'd be almost as well off going with the mutilator until you get enough passive armor penetration that the swing between the two weapons favors boundless agnoy in all cases.

For my current gearset, which includes around 650 armor penn., [Boundless Agony] in the offhand is about 2 DPS better for me than [The Mutilator]. However, since I have Boundless Agony in my mainhand, I can't use it in my offhand, and I therefore use Boundless MH, Mutilator OH.

Interestingly, when I have WF, using [Heartrazor's Gift] MH with Boundless Agony offhand is almost identical DPS-wise to the Boundless/Mutilator combo. I assume this is due to the power of the Heartrazor proc. Heartrazor OH isn't as useful, since it procs less often and therefore contributes a good bit less AP on average. Boundless/Heartrazor is about 10 DPS behind Heartrazor/Boundless, even though Boundless does more DPS.

[Swift Blade of Uncertainty] is behind all of those options.

Your mileage may vary, but that's what I get in my current set of gear.

I used a dps calculator (recount) on the three first bosses in Mount Hyjal yesterday and compared my dps with a swordspecced rogue with very similar gear to mine, and we turned out to have the exact same dps. She had more dps on the trash, but i had more dps on the bosses. We were in the same group and had the same buffs and pots. (We used to have the same dps when we were both swordspecced aswell, so "skill-wise" there should be very little difference)

She uses Blade of Infamy and Akil'zon's Talonblade, and i use Boundless Agony and the Mutilator. We both have Executioner on MH and mongoose on OH.




I know this isn't 100% scientifical so i apologize if this is the wrong place to post this, but i hope someone may find it intresting

If it's totally the wrong place to post it, tell me so and i will delete it right away.

No, for me the Tracker's Blade was about a 5 DPS upgrade over The Mutilator.

I've been raiding as a mutilate rogue for some time (naxx, kara, hyjal, bt and right now sw) and I love it, only a warglaive would make me change to swords. My problem, and I need some help of you guys, is that I feel I should be doing much more dps than I do.

that's my armory link The World of Warcraft Armory

I know one of my trinkets suxs (trying to get de mt one) and consider that I always raid with +20 hit food.

My rotation is as follows: I start with muti, wait to 70-80 energy--->snd---->muti, muti---->rupture----->cold blood muti wait for energy and start again.

Sometimes during the bossfights my mutis o ruptures are dodged and my rupture is out of the find weakness timer but it may happen just once or twice during the fight.

My party setup is usually: rogue-rogue-rogue-shammy enhancement-druid feral

I use elixir of greater agility and 20 hit food, the 3 rogues are lw so we have drums up 75% of the time and in the tries to brutallus I'm using haste potions every time cd is ready (timing drums with heroism and haste potions).

hard as I try it seems impossible for me to pass 1600-1700 dps (can't give u wws report, raid leaders don't allow it but my miss rating is about 8-10% and my attacks are dodged 6-7%).

I use deadly poison offhand none mainhand. Ah, and it's not an attention issue, consider that while raiding I don't even answer the phone (included trash mobs).

What am I doing wrong? I see muti rogues with similar gear to mine going as far as 2k dps and I feel very depressed. If any of you could give a clue about what I'm doing terribly wrong I'd be a happy man :P.

thanks in advance for your help and excuse my poor english.

You don't have a warrior so you aren't getting battle shout and you don't have a BM hunter so you aren't getting Ferocious Inspiration. That's a huge part of it. Unless those rogues are hemo, which would be laughable, they aren't adding to your dps the way a warrior with Imp BS and the Solarian trinket would. Disabling just the warrior's two buffs on the spreadsheet (Imp BS & Solarian's Saphire) for me results in a -150 dps loss. Rogues and other melee dps are HIGHLY buff dependent to do good dps.

Yes Ikilu, I'm aware of that but we don't have fury or arms warrior in our rooster (we had two but they left the game). Anyway yesterday in the brutallus fight we put one of our defensive warriors in our group (with dps gear, just to test the battle shout effect), but we had to put the feral druid in other group so we were 3 rogues 1 enhancement shammy and that warrior.
I know we lost the 5% crit buff which is huge for me but I expected the big amount of ap gained to make me go over 1700 dps...it didnt, in my best try I was about 1600 a bit less than the 1625 I got last week with the feral druid....

Well Tracker's Blade appears as the best off hand for me SWP daggers excluded. I've tried every combination but Tracker's always seems to be the best choice. Probably it has to do with the very strong stats Tracker's offers.

Another interesting thing is that the Boundless Agony / Tracker's Blade combo beats hands down the badge duo (Blade of Serration / The Mutilator or Swift Blade).

I pluged all your gear into the spreadsheet and reconfigured the buffs given your group makeup and I came up with 1750 DPS so if you're pulling 1600-1700 consistnatly in that gear and group make up I'd say you're doing damn fine.

That said, your choice of enchants, gemming, and the above choice of food highlights the fact that you itemize 1 hit as being greater than 1 agility. With your gear and build agility is worth about 15% more than hit point for point. I'd suggest regemming and getting dexterity on your boots if the cost isn't to great and at the very least switching to +20 agility food.

Thanks for you input tetracycloide, I think you are right I've been combat daggers for some time (ssc, kt, bwl mc) and it still hurts to my eyes seeing my hit rating falling below 200 :P i don't know which hit rating would be the right for a muti rogue but I'll surely change my +10 hit and 5crit/7 stam (that one was because of lack of gems) for 5agi/5 hit as well as my feeding habits :P.

The difference in actual DPS between 5 hit and 5 agility is really small but for muta agility is almost always superior.

If, for example, you took your gear and group makeup and adjusted all the gems, enchants, and food to the optimal options for each you'd see a difference of 7-8 DPS. The food is pretty much free to switch and the enchant is more or less free assuming you can enchant it yourself so those are no brainers but the gems are only really worth it if you're sitting on a stack of BoJs.

One huge thing I forgot though, if you're trying to maximize for brut you should really be using [Recipe: Elixir of Demonslaying] instead of your agility pot. That's roughly 50 DPS right there.

The sad thing is that i'm already using elixir of demonsalying for the brutallus tries...

Are you getting maximum possible melee buffs? Curse of Recklessness, a ret pala, Bom/BoK, survival hunter, etc?

We don't have survival hunter in raid (yet) nor retri paladin. I keep up quite well with the other rogues in the raid. Yesterday i did 1641 dps in my best try one of the rogues did 1731 (warglaive in main) and about 10k more damage than me. The other sword rogue (warglaive main too) was slightly behind me in most of the tries but none of them was using elixir of demonslaying (they used ap flask) and the one who was slightly behind me wasn't using haste potions.

Remember that we don't have fury/arms warrior in raid either.

Not having Battleshout, popping consumables, and no Blood Frenzy is definitely hurting your raid dps :x
Should definitely tell your guild to pick up a 2h warrior or something, because 4% more damage+Battleshout will definitely make a substantial difference X_x
Ret paladin wouldnt hurt either, 3% more crit from JoC+2% more if hes in your party
Unless I misinterpreted what you wrote and you do have at least one dps warrior

you understood right, anyway we are looking for one or at least make one of our defensive warriors respec for that boss. we lack some important raid buffs, bs, survival hunter, retri pala but you must understand that in our servers (spanish) 90% people just pvp. when you are in need of some specific class you have tons of trouble finding someone with enough pve experience and gear to fit in a raid...

hi there & greetings from germany!

at least i am now able (after getting my acc activated, thx for that) to post some statements und facts.

the last two weeks i spent many thoughts to find the right cycle. 2 finisher cycle vs 3 finisher cycle. in the begining i was prefering the 3 finisher cycle including evis - but to often my cycle broke down through bad luck in proccs and timing.

i was then focussing the 2 finisher cycle. it took some time to find the right timing, but now i strongly recommend the 2 finisher cycle. the dps was still the same, but the 2 finisher cycle is significant more stable and comfortable.

concerning the daggers: yesterday i was calculating my dps/gear for the brutallus fight. surprisingly boundless agony /trackers blade was about 1-2 dps better than shard/trackers blade. i assume that might be through lots of passive and active armor pen in the fight. generally shard seems 2-5 dps ahead in setups with less support.

brutallus: not our best kill, but my best dps so far for brut. (armory: for the kill i was wearing belt of deep shadow and mantle of darkness - slayers belt/shoulders came yesterday/today)

Wow Web Stats

The World of Warcraft Armory

most of the time i was playing with 2200 dps - but execute in the end changed it a little bit. i used all consumables, only 1 drum in grp and only 1 heroism.

through calculating and experience i think, that a slam-warrior with solarian trinket and a totem-twisting enhancer are a good base for solid group dps vs brut. the rest comes with hunters, ret, moonkin, warlock etc. atm we have 2 ferals for brut, so there is a second off-warrior in the raid keeping sunder amor up.

Hey.

Ive just some short questions about playing as mutilate rogue. (in raid 25)

#1 - Should I have more + hit or + crit on my clothes? What is more important for a mutilate rogue ?

I know + HIT is important for a rogue, but there are alot of cool + crit clothes without + hit stats.



And what about AP? I think +crit and +AP are more important for a mutilate rogue. Let me know ur opinions,please.

greets

NB

Well I did some changes in my gear just as tetracycloide suggested and our raid leader did some changes in our raid (arms warrior, enhancement shammy, retri pala and two rogues in party along with survival hunter in raid) and my dps as muti rogue was highly increased (1986 dps in the brutallus kill, 2031 in try 11 where we took him down to 1%). As the wws report has been posted in the public forum of our webpage I see no problem linking it here Wow Web Stats

I'm still far from the goal i've put to myself 2200-2300 but I expect to achieve it as soon as I get some swp gear. Thanks guys for your good advises and please keep this post alive^^.