Left

The answer is, as always, whatever mix gives you the most DPS increase. There is no "correct" amount of hit, crit, or any other stat. The general rule is to pick up the pieces that give the most benefit for your spec. You can get an answer to which these are by plugging your gear and raiding buff set into the DPS Spreadsheet. I recommend trying the beta candidate.

Also, as per forum rules, please don't sign your posts.

 

Neshalin

I'm a little unsure what to do with the simulator I've been working on. Over the last few months I've developed a nasty case of RSI, severely limiting both my raiding and work time. The simulator is functional, but not exactly user friendly, and I wouldn't call it fit for public release.

The core of the simulator is done. It should accurately follow the combat rules as we know them, and supports different ability cycles. Anyone with a little programming experience can probably use it, which is more than enough to test the effect of changing cycles, buffs, trinkets, and other gear. However, all of this except cycle research is supported by the Rogue Dps Spreadsheet with Left's mutilate modifications. I think the simulator would only really be interesting to answer more fundamental questions.

So what should I do with it? I'll definitely keep my own version up to date for when I want to test stuff. It's possible, but redundant, to polish the program into a usable dps similator for gear comparison. I could make the source code available for those interested in playing around with different cycles, or who just want the most accurate model possible. There is a lot of power available with a little bit of programming, that no finished product could have. For example, trying out a new proc trinket, is as simple as adding a method and calling it with every weapon swing (or yellow attack or finisher, as appropriate).

 

tetracycloide

The simulator would be useful in several areas.

The spreadsheet is limited, primarily, to producing the expected value of DPS given a fight of infinite length and a set of inputs. Most of the inputs, especially procs, are included by modeling themselves as an expected value over a fight of infinite length.

In real raiding there is far more variation than that. An armor penetration proc, for example, cannot be aproximated by an average given that armor penetration itself scales exponentially and that armor penetration can cap out on bosses at as little as 2190 armor penetration + raid buffs.

A simulator that runs a thousand or so 10-15 min DPS iterations and produces a distribution curve for DPS from the results would be a much better tool to evaluate gear set ups than a spread sheet that never outputs anything but expected values based on expected values.

My vanity is justified.

 

drumbum

Your points are valid about spreadsheets being limited, however I do want to point out that neither spreadsheet actually models armor penetration procs in the manner you just described. They account for capping on armor penetration from procs as well as adjust for the nonlinear behavior of armor penetration.

 

Pygoo

Just a funny and useless thing :

The proc-rate of Shard of Azzinoth has been increased , it could now proc 3 or 4 embers in 10 sec , and the internal cd seems to be removed . Another reason to go mutilate :p

 

tetracycloide

I have checked the equations on the DPS spreadsheet (I cannot speak for the gear spreadsheet) and it does not account for either case.

The calculations for proc uptimes are correctly based on PPM mechanics but the expected value of armor penetration procs are calculated as the product of proc value and expected uptime. This is slightly innaccurate because it assumes that each point of armor penetration is worth the same amount. Given the small size of armor penetration procs it is a reasonable aproximation but not a perfect one.

Take this example (using version 2.4.2.1, default combat swords build, 'sample tier 6' gear, default buffs, ruptureable, poisonable, 7685 armor, optimize after each swich):

DPS with all defaults: 1829.48

DPS with WSC replaced with trinket with 21 hit rating and nothing else (WSC no proc): 1776.81

DPS with WSC replace with trinket with 21 hit rating and -1000 armor (WSC with proc): 1906.21

The spread sheet takes the WSC trinket and assumes an uptime of 42.58% in the default gear and then calculates the value of the proc as 1000 armor pen * 42.58% = 425.81 armor penetration.

If we take the two DPS numbers above and weight them based on the calculated uptime of the trinket we get a slightly different number:

1776.81 * (1 - .4258) + 1906.21 * (.4258) = 1831.91

There's a difference of 2 DPS there. This difference is because getting 0 armor penetration from the trinket 1-42.58% of the time and getting 1000 armor penetration 42.58% of the time is a different amout of DPS than getting 425.81 armor penetration all of the time.

As for armor capping with multipul procs. The sheet correctly accounts for the armor cap given a level of boss armor and a level of armor penetration. The total level of armor penetration is only calculated as an average. The average of each proc is calculated assuming you get the full benifit of the proc every time the proc is up. This ignores situations where several procs, WSC + executioner for example, overlap to put you over the cap.

Take the same setup as above and change the boss armor to 6200. Change the chest slot to 'bladed chaos tunic.'

Average armor penetration (passive + buffs + average value of proc) = 5408

static armor penetration (passive + buffs) = 4570

max armor penetration (passive + buffs + both procs) = 6400

That's 200 over the cap whenever the two procs overlap but the proc value calculations are always % uptime * total benifit and the DPS calculations are based on the sum of the average values. So value of the procs is never reduced based on the fact that with both up armor caps.

The realtiy is it is unreasonable to expect a spreadsheet to take these situations into account because the sheer number of permutations in what procs are up and when is greater than the sheet is capable of handling. That's where a well coded simulator steps in and covers cases with multipul circular dependancies in an infinite case and instead calculates based on finite, intantaneous equations.

My vanity is justified.

 

Dontmindme

Actually it not impossible, I just haven't found the time yet to implement the new, more exact, armor pen model. There are not that many permutations given that most of the procced armor pen is from trinkets.

That; remodeling the Gear sheet; and Envenom cycle models are the top major changes to make when I find a more sizable chunk of time to work of the spreadsheet.

 

drumbum

Ah, so the new armor penetration stuff hasn't been added to the DPS sheet yet. I just remembered DMM mentioning that he had at least mostly recoded it, but I didn't realize it still hadn't been implemented.

That said, it's fairly easy to average it out by physical mitigation instead of by armor value, which eliminates the problem of it being nonlinear. Also, there really aren't that many permutations as there are only a small selection of armor penetration procs in the game. All in all, it's not overly difficult to get the spreadsheets to handle it all correctly.

I'm also pretty sure the Gear spreadsheet does already do this.

 

tetracycloide

The problem of overlapping procs is not strictly limited to armor penetration, which is why I said the number of permutations was high. With armor penetration it is most evident because armor penetration, when holding everything else constant, scales exponentially, but it is not limited to it.

In the expected value method of the sheet a lot of assumptions are made about the expected nature of how different stats scale, we assume, for the most part, that they scale linearly because it is the quickest way to get good data. Given the number of cooldowns and procs possible in any given rogue build and how they interact there are going to be small errors whenever blinket assumptions are made like this.

Assuming we could perfectly model the expected value of DPS given the inputs we have a simulator would still be capable of providing useful information on the variance.. Don't get me wrong, I think the sheets are an excellent tool and really appreciate all the hard work that's gone into them. I am just trying to refute the idea that the presence of a well coded sheet makes a simulator obsolete because I think having both would be more useful than only one or the other.

My vanity is justified.

 

queensidecastle

I have been really enjoying Mutilate after the 2.4 buff on raids. I have been persuaded by arguments here and elsewhere that 4 point finnishers are the best because of relentless strikes procs and more energy = more mutilates. The vast majority of damage on a raid according to all the WWS stats I have uploaded comes from Swing and Mutilate. Rupture and even deadly poison is a small percentage of damage. Therefore the more energy regeneration you get the more mutilates you can do.

My current investigation is whether I would do better with [The Mutilator] or [Tracker's Blade] in my OH. Right now I am using [The Mutilator] and I have 3/5 Vile and 2/5 improved. Does anyone think I could improve my DPS by going 5/5 Vile and using [Tracker's Blade] in OH?

 

Gere

Yes, not only due to the switch to 5/5 Vile but also because the stats on [Tracker's Blade] are amazing.

 

Dorvan

The spreadsheet is meant to answer exactly this sort of question. Use it.

 

Rilias

Why does the spreadsheet come up with such a huge difference from turning of mongoose on the mainhand (-2,1% for me) to turning it off on the OH (1,7% DPSdrop)?
I have heard that finisher can proc mainhandenchants and that would explain some of it, but it still seams rather drastic given that I assume mutilate to be able to proc both enchants evenly.
Could it have something to do with my Offhand beeing faster (Tracker's Blade) and thus through ppm-mechanics recieving a lower chance to proc per mutilate? Or am I wrong somewhere else?

 

Alkidas

Now, this is my first time posting on this forum. I'm currantly combat fist, but way back when I first hit 70, I was a Sub Ambush backstab, then 2.3 came out buffing hemo, and "buffing" shadowstep. but none the less I was upset, cause it ruin my roations. I only had daggers at the time, so i when with mutilation, Armed with the CoT rep blade and Season 1 gladatior. I found that I had way more energy regen then pure Sub, But I also found through this I would hit a spot in an encounter that I would be struggling for energy like Sub, So I started just using CBs soon as possible, I figured with a chance to proc to get 25 energy back it really help keep me going. I never really had any one else in my guild to really compare myself to rogue wise, so I always when out looking for competion. I did encounter a rogue one day through a pick up group for a heroic dungeon that had about the same AP Crit and Hit as me, but He was swords, he had the Spiteblade, but after all was said and done at the end of our instance with a DM running I only came out a a couple thousand DMG behind him, giving him a really good run for his money, over all I think i was less then 2-3% behind over all.

I guess what I'm trying to get at with mutilate, I really didn't have the greatest rotation, I only kept 3 things to heart when I was that spec to do the most DMG I could possibly do was. 1) get SnD up fast as possible 2) rupture everything 3) any lose CB's throw then into a finisher fast as possible, while keeping 1&2 up.

Evenom was my friend, I found it actually being close the majority of my DMG. hit averages of 3.5k Crits if not bigger. Also with being mutilation I was always using dual DP, I know ppl suggest using IP and DP oH, but I found having 2x DP I could throw out a chain of envenoms back to back. Best chain I had was intial crit on evenom for 4.2k with Coldblood, extra combo point and 1 DP stack x3 getitng around 600-700 for each, with in a blink of an eye I tossed out 6k dmg in matter of a few seconds. Awesome Burst DMG

I just wanted to say CBs=Energy, I didn't save them for a real roation and the faster I used then while keeping up my Bleeds with SnD the better dmg I was doing, I was pushin some hardcore DMG.

Sorry if that was a long post and sorry if there is any typos, I hope it helps

All so I have a Question if any one can help me with this : I found having mongoose on both daggers when I mutilate they both procced more often, so my question is does using mutilate cause both enchants to proc at the sametime do cause it an attack with both weapons, or some how does it cause both enchants to proc? I can't recall ever having only one mongoose proc coming off a mutilate, if ne one has an answer, I'd love a responce
~Alkidas~

 

drumbum

There either was or still is a bug in the spreadsheet where the offhand portion of Mutilate wasn't being treated as though it could proc the offhand enchant, although we know that it actually does. I believe the issue was identified just a week or so ago, and I don't think the latest revision has fixed the problem yet. However, even ignoring this bug, since your offhand is faster than your mainhand, and because you would use a few attacks that are mainhand only (any damaging finishers that you use), you would still expect mainhand Mongoose to be somewhat better than offhand Mongoose. So yes, there is a bug, but they won't be exactly equal to one another even after the fix is implemented.

 

Dontmindme

That bug was hopefully fixed. Quite frankly, yes, the difference is the fast offhand. A 2.6 speed weapon will proc twice as often as a 1.3 speed weapon on specials. Presuming that mutilate mechanics work as expected and the MH proc is based on the MH speed and the OH proc is based on the OH speed, 2.1% for the mainhand vs 1.7% for the offhand using mutilate and a fast offhand sounds about right. White damage procs should be equal without Windfury and MH white attacks should proc 20% more often than OH without it. For finishers you still have Eviscerate/Envenom that will increase your MH procs as well. All in all, MH enchants will proc more often from the mainhand unless you do something really silly like weild a fast MH with a slow OH.

Edit: MH also gains from Rupture and Windfury. It was late, forgot about rupture and WF was just thinking SnD. Point still stands. Mongoose procs more on MH than OH even for mutilate builds and this is how its modeled in the spreadsheet.

 

drumbum

You seem to imply that Rupture cannot proc Mongoose. It doesn't really make a huge difference in the long run, but I always assumed that it could. Has any testing been done on that, by chance?

 

buster

Why would Mongoose proc on rupture? I never saw a proc when standing not in meleerange (would be quite weird when a melee weapon enchant procs when doing nothing, right?)

Although the Tooltip doesnt say "on melee hit", wowwiki says:

"Mongoose will not proc off ranged attacks, only melee."

edit: When thinking about your post, ou probably meant that mongoose procs when applying rupture the first time. I'll shut up now :P

 

Left

It's my understanding that Mongoose can also proc off of a Windfury attack. That would increase the MH proc further as well.

Maybe if I can get some time I'll go stab ogres to test all this stuff.

 

Soulvex

Here's another WWS from SSC last night (as well as a kara some of us went to afterwards). Probably my best Tidewalker attempt yet. I died at about 30% on Lurker and had to use Mindnumbing on FLK. The other rogue was a pug 4/8 T6 with both S3 weapons lol.

I also picked up ToA from TW so for now I'm going CSwords until we can get our T5 under control (had a really off night last night).

Wow Web Stats

 

Left

No WF for Tidewalker eh? I notice that seems to have hurt the swords rogue a good bit more than you, or perhaps he just had his rotation all wrong.

 

Soulvex

Haha, well we had a different enh shaman this time - someone who doesn't raid a lot - and I had to explain what twisting was to him (our regular one drops goa for trash then twists on bosses). He wasn't even dropping WF, just GoA and the other rogue wasn't even in the group. I'm also going to have to have a talk with our ret pally who, I just noticed last night, was using judgement of wisdom instead of the good kind of judgement.

 

Schmi

Hi guys,

I hope you can help me...
I'm playing a Mutilate Rogue in PVE Endcontent. A other Rogue from my guild said, that I only need a hit rating of +200.
With a combat dagger / sword specialism I need a hit rating of ~ 300+. Can I change my gems from hit rating to agility or crit rating? I know, the link is not up to date. On the boots and the pants the +12 agility / +50AP +12crit enchantment fail.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I hope you can help me quick that I can do a lot more damage in the raid !

A other question is, can you say, that 41/20/0 as I skilled is so ok ?
Or is it better I skill dagger specialism instead of two-hand specialism ?

Thank you for your help......

SchMi

 

Dky

With 5/5 Precision and the expertise change, the hit cap for white attacks (the bulk of Your damage, regardless of spec) is always 363, for specials it's 64.
In regards to the spec - mutilate is an instant attack dealing damage with BOTH weapons, hence people use 2 slow daggers with a good high-end damage value. Loosing 50% damage on Your offhand just to pick up 5% crit with a dagger is borderline stupid.

Apart from that You REALLY should read the rules of the forum.

 

cchrisch

always the same questions for mutilate going hit vs agi/crit :-)

some facts for you to think about:

mutilate crit is calculated with 1-(1-n)² - forget your base crit in order to think about mutilate crit by geming your equip. simply calculate it and watch closely whats happening with your mutilate crit by pushing base crit through gems. calculate some examples based on your gear by pushing your base crit in 0,2%/0,5% pieces and look for your mutilate crit. in a raid environment your mutilate crit will be extremly higher through buffs, flasks/pots and infight through support and proccs (mongoose, ashtongue).

as a mutilate raiding rogue my dmg sources are divided as followed (based on a nuke-encounter like brutallus):

57% - 60% is white damage. i am doing nothing for this. just standing behind the boss and autoattacking.
27% - 30% is mutilate damage.
the rest: rupture, poisons and evenom/evis as "execute" in the end of the fight.

so where is the sense to push your crit by lacking immense of hit? you will push your mutilate-crit a little by weakening your strongest attack.

so, there is no need for mutilate rogues geming for 200 hit and then push agi/crit. generally mutilate rogues also should get hit as most as possible. of course there are items that are a better choice for your gear-setup and your mutilate specc without hit. but you have to exactly know which items.

simply use the spreadsheet!!!!

it will answer your question for only 200 hit and a few agi or crit-gems. (it will be a bad choice).

and a second thought: with "normal" hit for about >300, you are able to choose other weapons and a combat-specc without being forced to use other gems to regain your hit compared to your 200 hit setup. muru seems to be an encounter who will force us to respecc combat because of the adds.