This is a stacked group and other then the paladin being a moron (cant seem to keep his drum rotation) fairly perfect conditions. My stats are 2091ap; 328 hit;28.46 crit;721 arp;74haste;68 expertise. (i usualy try to keep my crit at atleast 30% but unfortunately upgrades are pushing me away from it. (luckily i almost always have a ret pally to make up for it)
i realize my armory is blank ;p thats why i post my stats. the rest you can pull pretty easy from the wws.
Note that this is not omg lucky crit dps i've consistently done roughly this (varying only by maybe 100) dps.
I have also been intigued by the IEA possibilities. Lately I have been runing mostly 5 and 10 man content with bear and paly tanks. I have seen a noticeable drop in DPS from when I use to run with a warrior tank. Today I tried to simulate a IEA cycle in the DPS Spreadsheet. I set the DPS from my current 3s/5r cycle as a baseline. Then I switched the mob to unbleedable, turned on a 5pt IEA debuff, and manually set eviserate damage to zero on the buffed dps spreadsheet. This resulted in a recommended cycle of 3s/5e with a damage breakdown with zero finisher damage, but significantly more melee and mutilate damage.
The final conclusion was that for my gear level and typical buffs 3s/5iea cycle is better damage than a 3s/5r cycle. This does not include the extra rupures I could throw in when SF and relentless proc. I think an IEA cycle modeler could show some interesting results. The longer duration of EA would fit better with 3 finisher cycles than rupture does.
Edit: I posted this when I was very tired and thought I was in one of the combat threads, so what I said below was intended to apply to combat EA cycles, not Mutilate EA cycles.
You shouldn't have time to do any additional Ruptures unless you're doing something wrong. You don't have enough SND time. If you are talking about 1-2 point Ruptures, those are nothing but detrimental to your total DPS. In general, you should never use a finisher (except SND) with fewer than 5 combo points. Edit: With Mutilate, it's generally accepted that 4pt finishers are OK, but I'd still avoid anything smaller.
That said, the best EA cycle is always 5s/5ea, not 3s/5ea. That's because EA lasts long enough to never expire during the longer cycle, and therefore it's advantageous to guarantee Relentless Strikes procs. The point of using a 3s/5r cycle instead of a 5s/5r cycle is to increase your Rupture uptime. A shorter cycle doesn't increase EA uptime, however, so it no longer makes sense to shorten your cycle. (Also, arguably, it should be called a 5ea/5s cycle, as EA is the higher priority finisher!)
Also, since Rupture and EA have the same energy cost, it makes more sense to keep the mob as bleedable and set Rupture damage to zero. If you use Eviscerate, the cycle DPS is assuming a 35 energy cost finisher, which will skew the results somewhat.
(266 hit can be lowered to 230~ while gaining approximately 1.5-2% crit more)
My daggers of choice are:
Umbral Shiv (socketed with +8agi and +4hit+4agi) -1.8 speed, 95.6dps
Malchazeen -1.8speed, 91.9dps
Emerald Ripper -1.8 speed, 87.5dps
Edge of Oppression -1.3 speed, 87.3dps
At this moment our progress is 3/4 TK, 5/6 SSC and 1/5 MH, so several decent daggers may drop and no raider dagger using rogue is up.
Will respeccing PvE Muti make my dps fail (atm I'm constantly top 3 on dps charts on melee friendly encounters) and lose my dps spot or not? thanks in advance.
In general, you should never use a finisher (except SND) with fewer than 5 combo points.
Right, but how often do Mutilate rogues end up with 4 combo points after a Ruthlessness proc and Mutilate crit? Keeping only 5-point finishers going as Mutilate takes an incredible amount of luck unless you just plan to not spec for Ruthlessness.
Why is that a problem? Just Mutilate a second time and you'll have 5 combo points. Ruthlessness and Seal Fate are there to lower the chance of 2x Mutilate NOT giving 5 (less than 2% chance for a Sunwell raiding rogue).
Maybe I've missed something big, but I was always told that Mutilating with 4 combo points is a no-no and that it's a huge waste of combo points (at least 1, 2 if Mutilate crits).
If you throw that rule out, then isn't Ruthlessness next to useless? The chance for 2 Mutilates to not give 5 points is tiny...
Maybe I've missed something big, but I was always told that Mutilating with 4 combo points is a no-no and that it's a huge waste of combo points (at least 1, 2 if Mutilate crits).
If you throw that rule out, then isn't Ruthlessness next to useless? The chance for 2 Mutilates to not give 5 points is tiny...
It's not a big no-no, as Left found via the DPS Spreadsheet model a couple pages back, it actually turns out in some cases to be worthwhile to Mutilate again at 4 CP. The point of Ruthlessness in this case is to help offset the possibility of multiple Seal Fate no-procs as much as possible.
Maybe I've missed something big, but I was always told that Mutilating with 4 combo points is a no-no and that it's a huge waste of combo points (at least 1, 2 if Mutilate crits).
If you throw that rule out, then isn't Ruthlessness next to useless? The chance for 2 Mutilates to not give 5 points is tiny...
I think for Mutilate the one advantage for Ruthlessness may be from post by Left (Throw in Evisc iff you are lucky with ruthless/seal fate). As far as I can tell the spreadsheets can't handle this level of variable finishing with an optional, proc dependent third finisher, so we don't really know how much of a DPS boost it is (or isn't). That might be where Neshalin's sim could be rather handy since it can probably be tweaked to run a variable cycle and give us real numbers. If you knew that you'd whether you can really run a truly dynamic cycle on Mutilate, and have a more accurate idea of Mutilate's potential.
I have try on the dps spreadsheet to skip ruthlessness and i have put 4 point in imp poison and vile poison, the dps sheet show me only a 4 dps drop ( 10 when i don't put the point anywhere). My gear is mostly from Kara, i think the lost in dps would be less for someone with more crit. Do someone think it could be viable to skip the talent ?
Well, as the posters before me have been saying, Ruthlessness really serves to make sure that 2 [very] unlucky non-crit Mutilates don't screw you out of 5 combo points. The difference in added DPS of a Ruthlessness proc is essentially that 5th combo point's value in damage based on the finisher. However, as Left has shown, a Ruthlessness proc + Mutilate crit strung 3 in a row (not uncommon) gives you the chance to do a 3rd finisher without screwing up your DPS cycle, and it's hard for the spreadsheet to model this.
(I'm only reiterating what's already been said as I understand it. If I've misspoken, please correct me.)
As for being worth it, I'd lean more towards no. Like I said before, Ruthlessness can be powerful when it procs several times in a row with Mutilate crits, and those poison talents are situationally handy. If you have high hit rating, Improved Poisons isn't going to be much use. Likewise, if you have a shaman in your group dropping WF, you're getting even less use out of the talent.
Sure, but my test was with the default buff setting of the dps sheet, so he was using windfury main hand and deadly off-hand, with a fast off-hand (1,5 speed). Add that my crit is not that high ( 30% if i remember right with leader of the pack). you have a good point on the hit rating ( i have something like 200 ). Would have to test with different gear setup.
something interesting, at my surprise the spreadsheet drop a little the AEP of Hit when i drop Ruthlessness (0,93 to 0,91)
Yep, I have the default buffs as well, and also see a 3 dps drop if I take out Ruthlessness and take 4 VP and 4 IP. I also see the same decrease in AEP of Hit Rating from .90 to .88 with that change.
I honestly have no idea why Hit Rating (and Expertise as well) would lose AEP without Ruthlessness. The only thing Ruthlessness determines is how many points you have when you use your next finisher (4 or 5).
I think for Mutilate the one advantage for Ruthlessness may be from post by Left (Throw in Evisc iff you are lucky with ruthless/seal fate). As far as I can tell the spreadsheets can't handle this level of variable finishing with an optional, proc dependent third finisher, so we don't really know how much of a DPS boost it is (or isn't). That might be where Neshalin's sim could be rather handy since it can probably be tweaked to run a variable cycle and give us real numbers. If you knew that you'd whether you can really run a truly dynamic cycle on Mutilate, and have a more accurate idea of Mutilate's potential.
I agree that it would be helpful to have an actual simulation on this point. I have tried, on various occasions, to micro-manage energy as I described to the point of running 4s/4r/4e with 1 Mutilate in between each if I got lucky, but I found that if I don't do it exactly perfectly I either (a) clip Rupture (if coming off a 3s/5r cycle previously), (b) cap energy waiting to not clip Rupture, or (c) lose SnD at the end of the cycle due to unlucky procs. All of those are no-nos. I've done my best DPS when I don't try to micro-manage in this way, so I'm coming to the conclusion that while it is possible to do it, it may not be worth the risk unless you get a whole lot of practice in at it.
The other problem I found is deciding when to do this. Effectively, you have to have a 4 pt. SnD, Mutilate crit back to 4 pts. and decide right then to Rupture on 4 instead of on 5. Of course, you don't know if you'll get 4 pts. with your next Mutilate or not. If you get 4, great! It means you get to Eviscerate, then start over. If you get only 3 or 2, well, that means you need to restart your cycle at SnD again. In the first situation, you gained DPS by getting an evis; in the second you lost DPS by having a smaller Rupture which cost you more energy. So, you win some you lose some. A simulator would tell you the effects better than the averaging spreadsheet model can.
Originally Posted by Bishop200
something interesting, at my surprise the spreadsheet drop a little the AEP of Hit when i drop Ruthlessness (0,93 to 0,91)
Originally Posted by Ozzmar
Yep, I have the default buffs as well, and also see a 3 dps drop if I take out Ruthlessness and take 4 VP and 4 IP. I also see the same decrease in AEP of Hit Rating from .90 to .88 with that change.
I honestly have no idea why Hit Rating (and Expertise as well) would lose AEP without Ruthlessness. The only thing Ruthlessness determines is how many points you have when you use your next finisher (4 or 5).
I doubt it has anything to do with Ruthlessness itself. Instead, it probably has to do with getting 4/5 IP. The more points you have in improved poisons, the higher the base chance for your poisons to stick is, and therefore the lower the contribution to poisons from hit is. Thus, hit becomes less important than previously.
Thanks Left for the explanation. So what Ozzmar was saying is true in the two way, the more hit you have the less imp. poison is useful, but the more point you have in imp. poison, the less hit is useful
If i change windfury for instant poison i gain 4 dps from moving the point of ruthlessness to imp. and vile poison.
Maybe it's could be a option for those who don't have a Shaman in there group
granted i only read up to the third or fourth page, reading walls of text where people are arguing back and forth is annoying...(paladin in rogue forums?)
i noticed no one ever mentioned timing their rotations to keep FW up for Ruptures + Mutilates...
i do not always plan on opening while stealthed on a boss so
(110 energy with Vigor talent)
mutilate(2-3cp / 50 energy left) energy tick(70 energy) mutilate2(4-5cp / 10 energy)
wait till 90 energy
SnD (25 energy returned with relentless strikes)
gain Find Weakness(+10% damage of all offensive abilities)
mutilate (3-5 CP*ruthlessness / 70 energy) mutilate (4-5cp / 10 energy)
1 energy tick = 30 energy
Rupture (25 energy returned possible 1 CP from ruthlessness) *(5 energy ruptures with +10% damage from find weakness )
gain find weakness again
1-2 energy ticks
Mutilate(+10%)
waiting on energy mutilate again(no find weakness),
so 3 / 4 mutilates are with find weakness and Rupture is as well, always.
depending on crits \ energy i may throw in a FW envenom or evis...
i have learned some interesting things in this thread. i may start with a shiv SnD - mutilate now, for FW \ guaranteed poison. then work with TIMING the rotation after that.
as for why CB swords are better? it is ONLY because slower weapons scale better with Haste than faster
and daggers are on averages 1.0 faster than swords...
example (correct me if i am wrong)
extremes: 1.0 speed at 30% haste is .7 or a difference of .3
mid weapon 2.0 speed at 30% haste is 1.4 or a difference of .6
slow weap 3.0 speed at 30% haste is 2.1 or a difference of .9
the slower the weapon the better the scaling with haste%
therefor i would change what was said on roguecraft101
i dont have a proof of concept, nor should the numbers be looked at as right,
all i know is haste has less of an effect for daggers than for swords, therefore does not count for as much
whereas mutilate thrives on crit.
crit rating alone does not scale with much but agi does, and gives crit as well
so i took .3 from haste and put .2 in agi and .1 in crit...
though i wanted to put more in crit...
correct me if anyone thinks i am wrong,
the numbers for aep are probably wrong, but i am positive haste is not as good for mutilate stat wise than agi or crit.
open for discussion.
Darkspear US Dierwolf, 70 dwarf rogue, look me up....
ive recently found out my gem choices are not the best options... but nor the worst XD
questions is if hit is 2.3 aep then why does 10 agi = better? at least unless you are at the hit cap (i dont plan on getting hit capped though i do need better trinkets and a cape)
the slower the weapon the better the scaling with haste%
This bit is just plain false. There is absolutely no difference in effect by haste for a slow or fast weapon. You get exactly the same % increase in damage. Read through roguecraft 101 or either of the spreadsheet threads if you wish to learn specifically why. Until you take the time to do that research, I'd recommend that you just take our word for it.
Originally Posted by Dierwolf
therefor i would change what was said on roguecraft101
i dont have a proof of concept, nor should the numbers be looked at as right,
all i know is haste has less of an effect for daggers than for swords, therefore does not count for as much
whereas mutilate thrives on crit.
crit rating alone does not scale with much but agi does, and gives crit as well
so i took .3 from haste and put .2 in agi and .1 in crit...
though i wanted to put more in crit...
correct me if anyone thinks i am wrong,
the numbers for aep are probably wrong, but i am positive haste is not as good for mutilate stat wise than agi or crit.
I'd recommend not just shifting points around at your whim. As has been stated in the Roguecraft 101 thread, the numbers for Mutilate are outdated. However, the thread author is not updating that thread anymore; he is moving the contents to a new Theorycraft Think Tank post. In the new post he is using updated numbers.
Your post is mostly speculation. It turns out that the best model we have for Mutilate, the DPS Spreadsheet, doesn't back you up on some of your choices. Haste is not significantly worse than hit for Mutilate; in fact they come out almost the same. It is, however, better than crit but worse than agility.
In summary, those numbers in the post aren't just arbitrary, but they are outdated. New numbers for Mutilate will be available in the upcoming Theorycrafting Think Tank article being written by Vulajin.
EDIT: In response to reading about keeping FW up, I guess you just missed it. There has been a good bit of conversation about that, especially in the last few pages of the thread. The general conclusion is that FW is always up as long as you queue before SnD. Mutilate generates CP fast enough for that to be the case, so we've stopped worrying about it.
My guild is currently attempting Illidan and I'm thinking of picking up Shard of Azzinoth should it become available. I'm a sword rogue atm, but I thought it might be nice to see how this dagger performs under Mutilate (I've heard good things). So using version 2421 of the Rogue DPS* spreadsheet I swapped to Mutilate spec and switched in some dagger options, which put me behind combat swords by less than 100 DPS (perfectly acceptable).
However, what surprised me, and the reason I'm posting, is just how little overall DPS difference the various daggers are from one another. Here are the numbers I played with:
1) Fang of Vashj and Dagger of Bad Mojo (my current best options) - baseline
2) Shard of Azzinoth and Dagger of Bad Mojo - +.53 DPS
3) Shard of Azzinoth and Fang of Vashj - +1.64
4) Shard of Azzinoth and Tracker's Blade - +5.67
5) S3 1.8 Daggers - +7.55
Why is it that "upgrades" have such a small impact on Mutilate DPS? Is it because of the straight 101 +dmg of the skill that basically makes small DPS differences moot? Perhaps that plus Mutilate's reliance on weapon stats over weapon speed/DPS? I'm just taken aback by the marginal gain of my various upgrade paths, and it makes spending my hard earned DKP on future dagger drops much less appealing.
Any thoughts on why this seems to be true?
Last edited by Professor Hurt : 05/23/08 at 10:15 AM.
Well, in light of a Combat rogue, we have no talents that modify our Mutilate damage other than Lethality (which is a puny fraction of our total DPS). Thus, an upgrade in base damage is still going to add only that much to Mutilates, or that much * Lethality modifier to our crits. Conversely, a Combat rogue gets Aggression and Surprise Attacks increasing their Sinister Strikes, so that base weapon damage is modified a lot more from the very beginning. Let's also not forget Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush that allow them to Sinister Strike a lot more often and against more targets.
Another aspect to consider is the amount of combo point builders vs. finishers we do. More often than not, you'll have at most 2 main-hand yellow hits and 2 off-hand yellow hits between finishers (which are unaffected by your weapon). Combat rogues (almost always) have 5 main hand hits between SnD and Rupture.
Just a couple thoughts off the top of my head, it strikes me that Mutilate is much more reliant on good stats than on hard-hitting daggers (hence the never-ending discussion about fast vs. slow offhands).
All great points, but the majority or damage done is still white, which would likely be impacted more by raw DPS increases than yellow. This is what surprised me the most (that the impact on white is still so low).
Other damage procs such as the Fist of Fury and the Scryer's Shattered Sun Pendant of Might increase the value shown on Proc/Other DPS line of the Buffed DPS tab as well as the Other Dps Line of the Gear _ Buffs tab but the Shard of Azzinoth doesn't increase either of these thus the question of if the proc is actually adding dps in the speadsheet.
Other damage procs such as the Fist of Fury and the Scryer's Shattered Sun Pendant of Might increase the value shown on Proc/Other DPS line of the Buffed DPS tab as well as the Other Dps Line of the Gear _ Buffs tab but the Shard of Azzinoth doesn't increase either of these thus the question of if the proc is actually adding dps in the speadsheet.
Oh, [Shard of Azzinoth]. I thought you meant [Shard of Contempt]. I'm not sure if the Azzinoth proc is modelled or not. I'd suppose the place to ask would be in the spreadsheet thread itself, as DMM is more likely to know than anyone else. Apparently the damage the mob does is pretty pathetic, so I don't think it's a particularly large issue anyway.
Oh, [Shard of Azzinoth]. Apparently the damage the mob does is pretty pathetic, so I don't think it's a particularly large issue anyway.
Hm I dont think so. At our last Brutalls kill, the Ember of Azzinoth accounted for 15770 dmg over 352 seks. That averages out to 44.8 DPS. Not too shabby I think
EDIT: According to my combatlog, the fight lasted from first hit (arkaneshot from misdirecting hunter) to UNIT_DIED message 352.06 sek. I don't know why WWS claims 355 seconds.
05/21/08, 1:28 AM
who said mutilate isn't viable!
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