Hm, I was thinking more about deep Mutilate today, and it occurs to me that the new talents may push a Mut rogue over into the Feral/Hunter group rather than the traditional melee group (with the nice side effect of relieving the added pressure on the melee group from the addition of the Death Knight. I don't have any math yet, but here's the thought process. Instead of the normal melee group the rogue is in:
For this group you'd obviously want to run Grace of Air, which is fine for the Mut rogue, who just runs instant poison on the MH (which doubles as DP due to Deadly Brew). With dual Deadly is then becomes worthwhile to run an envenom cycle, hopefully fairly continuously due to Cut to the Chase. At the same time, the rogue is getting an extra 7% crit from group buffs, increasing their energy gen (through Focused Attacks), combo point gen (seal Fate), and SnD refreshes.
right now the weak link is this idea is Cut to the Chase. Without guaranteed SnD refreshes you won't be able to Envenom as often, and without frequent Envenoms there doesn't seems much point it having dual DP instead of Windfury. If Cut to the Chase provide a more consistent (70-100%) chance of SnD refresh, this seems at least at a glance like it'd be a viable approach...any thoughts?
Problem is that you're already running IP on the OH, hence you already have Deadly; hence, IP on the MH doesn't give you much beyond just IP, which isn't really any different than the current situation. Yes, it ups the proc rate for refreshing after Envenom, but with Imp Poisons getting your proc chance up to 45 and hit rating dropping your resist rate to almost zero, I have to think that it'll be restacking with adequate speed; hence, I think you still want WF MH rather than just another poison.
Also, I haven't heard anything about a new rank of Envenom yet, which I *presume* they'll fix at some point, but it is worth keeping in mind for the moment - at the moment, Envenom cycles are clearly useless.
All in all: the poison changes make OH poison a lot stronger, but I still don't think it's enough to supplant WF as the king of MH enhancements.
Well, right now I'd agree it's not quite there yet, but if you're able to run a straight envenom cycle dual DP definitely seems like it'd be at least worth exploring...I'd agree the 2nd IP isn't as significant as the first, but with frequent envenoms the restacking benefit seems nontrivial. If your shaman isn't totem-twisting or they fix totem-twisting, the comparison is also GoA+IP/DP vs. WF, not just IP/DP vs. WF.
I noticed that the general rule of gemming for mutilate is Red - Agi, Yellow - Agi/Hit, Blue (for bonus and meta) - Agi/Stam
Are there any research done on the diminishing return point of +hit for mut spec which made all of us having the idea of "stop at around 200hit"? The question leads to did the rogue dps spreadsheet model this diminishing return? Since I only have 170 hit now and when toying with the gem choices, pure agi gems would apparently still put out more dps with pure hit or agi/hit gem.
And how exactly do I determine if a socket bonus is worth a purple gem? Since all the rogue items bonus would be like +4ap, +3hit, +4agi (this one I know everyone should go for), +2crit etc., which all of them look good to me.
I apologize if someone already posted the answer to my questions and would be most greatful if anyone could kindly redirect me to the exact page of the topic where they're answered.
There is no diminishing return. There is no magic point at which you should stop getting a particular stat, other than the cap for that stat.
The only case in which it is worth gemming for a socket bonus involving a blue socket is to meet the meta gem requirement of 2 blues. You should only pick the two pieces of gear with blue sockets which have the highest combination of total stats from socket bonuses.
Thanks a bunch. So does it mean that having +10 hit while I'm at 0hit would make the same difference as of +10hit to 200hit? Is the efficiency the same as long as it's under the cap? It seems so if I've got the idea right.
If that's the case, the simple question would be is agi>hit. Would the logic behind the "yellow socket go for agi/hit" be favouring the socket bonus which would make up the difference?
Again it seems to be some fundamental questions that someone would have already answered, but ty again in advance.
At 0 hit hit would be worth somewhat more, as you'd be below the white hit cap. Even neglecting that fact, the value of stats does change somewhat as your gear does, so increasing your hit from 100 to 110 will probably generate a slightly different DPS increase than going from 200 to 210, or from 300 to 310. When we say that there's no magic numbers, we mean that there's no points where the marginal value of hit makes a sudden jump. When we say that there are no diminishing returns, we mean the value of the stats, while it may change a bit, it's value overall remains pretty close.
Basically: as long as you have a reasonable amount of hit (like, between 100 and 300), you shouldn't worry too much about the exact number - just pick the gear pieces that are best for you, and let hit be whatever it winds up as.
Got it, so hm, the only remaining question is what about the agi and hit comparison, Are they actually kinda close? or would the socket bonus make a slight advantage for us to gem an orange in a yellow socket?
Hm, so given that the new talents are out, there are a lot of interesting options available to a Mutilate build now. Here's a sample build I put together:
Right now Cut to the Chase seems underwhelming...as best you're getting an extra envom/evis every other finisher, in practice it'll be worse since it only procs on crits. Hunger for Blood has potential, but for now, esp given Cut to the Chase in it's current form, I'd rather grab Blade Flurry and Opportunity. 2/5 Imp Poisons probably is higher DPS than 2/2 Quick Recovery, but I think the survivability boost is one of the nice perks to a Mut build and I'm reluctant to give that up.
Despite not having a Rogue main that was my initial thought too. The two latter tiers are just not worth it to me. CttC is just not very interesting and not worth the effort to get something that looks like a rather powerful PvP talent (if quite handy in certain PvE situations, but then you 'just' respec for that).
Instead getting 20% to the main special (combined with DW Spec it should be pretty awesome) and Blade Flurry (for combination with Focused Attacks) I see some potential. I just think the new Combat talents beat it even more. Murder Spree and Prey on the Weak will be nasty. But Blood Spatter isn't worth it?
Hmm, I think that if WotLK proves to be debuff heavy, Hunger for Blood might be a almost "must have" on some encounters, due to virtually becoming immune to ALL magic effects except those that prevent control of your character... Although, it might be fun to see if we can exploit lag to become immune to them too..
Anyone done any actual calculations regarding Focused Attacks? Cause, at first sight, it appears as "Must have", however, maybe it isn't all that invaluable...
Hmm, maybe it has a hidden CD... that would SURE break the talent into nothingness...
Anyone done any actual calculations regarding Focused Attacks? Cause, at first sight, it appears as "Must have", however, maybe it isn't all that invaluable...
Raid buffed in end game sunwell gear a muta rogue is probably looking at closer to a 45-49% crit rate depending on groups and gear which is closer to a 1.2-1.25 crit/sec than the 1/sec quoted by ald. Reguardless it's a very significant buff either way, point for point better than opportunity. Everything 41+ in assassination looks decidedly lackluster by comparison.
Combat potency is easier to itemize for than focused attacks and in most situations will result in more energy gained than focused attacks and it does not have an internal cooldown. It's not 100% but this seems to be reasonable footing on which to stake the claim that focused attacks will not have an internal cooldown as well.
Just to be clear, I don't want to get in a dick waving contest over what is hardest to play
Try MH trash with mutilate then tell me how easy it is there to actually land mutilates "not behind your target" love anyone? Tell me how much problems a dodged SS gives you because when my mutilates get dodged sometimes twice in a raw my DPS cycle goes out the window. Plus if you slack with mutilate your DPS will suffer greatly which isn't exactly the case with swords, you basically just need to keep S&D running everything else is just an added bonus. Have you tried the fun of chasing down an overaggroed (I know it’s bad but it happens… it’s called omg Shadow Bolt critted for 1 million damage) mob as mutilate? You know that one sweet mob that keeps changing targets and sides in a split of a second? Mutilate is harder to play both in PvE and PvP due to its many restrictions: position requirement, poisons, extra timers etc. I agree with you though that the latest 3-5s&d/5rupture cycle which the spreadsheet gives out as best has simplified things a bit.
As for the new assassination tree I am dying to try an envenom based cycle with crits refreshing slice & dice. Would be quite interesting if anything else, though I've seen that eviscerate will get buffed a lot in WoTLK, it's base damage almost doubled as the first leaks show, if envenom follows the same root then it would be the priority finisher of Assasination builds with Evis being the priority of Combat builds. So far new rupture ranks seem to be minimal gains over the TBC ones which may lead in the dethroning of rupture as the king of finishers. It's still alpha though so
So far new rupture ranks seem to be minimal gains over the TBC ones which may lead in the dethroning of rupture as the king of finishers. It's still alpha though so
The power of rupture lies in the fact that it is free damage at 5 points because the base cost of 25 energy is refunded. Infinite damage per energy is never going to be something eviscerate can compete with. To beat rupture eviscerate would need to deal rupture damage + 10 energy worth of CP generator damage, which is a large cap on an attack mitigated by armor.
Try MH trash with mutilate then tell me how easy it is there to actually land mutilates "not behind your target" love anyone?
Sigh...
FYI, my first purple raiding weapon was a [Gutgore Ripper]. I raided with nothing but daggers from the time when I looted that weapon all the way till last fall, when I got a Talon of Azshara. You may rest assured that I know more than a little about positioning for dagger instant attacks (and yes, i have used daggers on MH trash).
I find it beneficial to avoid parry-raping tanks and my own DPS, so even as swords I take care to stay in the rear arc of mobs. There is little difference in practice, though I can no longer use a little trick to 'feel' my way to the appropriate position when there's too much visual clutter to easily see it. (I used to just circle strafe around the mob's targeting circle while spamming backstab/mutilate till one went through. When it did, I knew I was in the rear arc. Can't do that anymore.)
Plus if you slack with mutilate your DPS will suffer greatly which isn't exactly the case with swords, you basically just need to keep S&D running everything else is just an added bonus.
I'm looking at a WWS summary of a Mutilate rogue in my guild. Autoattack + Mutilate + Deadly Poison + Ember of Azzinoth sums to 93% of his damage. The corresponding percentage for myself in the same raid (autoattack, SS, and poison) was 94%. Neither of us seem to have allowed S&D to drop to any significant extent.
I totally disagree with you but our little debate has nothing to add in this thread so yes we will stop this idiocy.
Originally Posted by tetracycloide
The power of rupture lies in the fact that it is free damage at 5 points because the base cost of 25 energy is refunded. Infinite damage per energy is never going to be something eviscerate can compete with. To beat rupture eviscerate would need to deal rupture damage + 10 energy worth of CP generator damage, which is a large cap on an attack mitigated by armor.
Yes but bare in mind that Envenom crits give you back added damage over rupture as rupture can’t crit plus a free slice and dice refresh with the new talents (there is your energy refund). If we assume a 35% base crit then Envenom will crit roughly 1 out of 3 times used, which means you have high chances after kicking off slice and dice for the first time to be able to maintain it by Envenom crits alone.
A single Envenom crit will refresh slide & dice up to 30secs within 30secs you restore 600 energy which will power 10 mutilates which gives back 20-30cps. Now this is ideal you still need some energy to perform Envenoms. So let’s say within the 30secs time frame you perform 6 mutilates spending 360 energy which gives you up to 12-18 cps and you will still have energy and cps to perform at least 3 envenoms easily with a high chance one of them to crit, refreshing your slice and dice. Now I know the above estimates are kid grade maths but I believe there is potential there.
Bad maths here, read two posts below for the real thing, thank you.
Yes but bare in mind that Envenom crits give you back added damage over rupture as rupture can’t crit plus a free slice and dice refresh with the new talents (there is your energy refund). If we assume a 35% base crit then Envenom will crit roughly 1 out of 3 times used, which means you have high chances after kicking off slice and dice for the first time to be able to maintain it by Envenom crits alone.
A single Envenom crit will refresh slide & dice up to 30secs within 30secs you restore 600 energy which will power 10 mutilates which gives back 20-30cps. Now this is ideal you still need some energy to perform Envenoms. So let’s say within the 30secs time frame you perform 6 mutilates spending 360 energy which gives you up to 12-18 cps and you will still have energy and cps to perform at least 3 envenoms easily with a high chance one of them to crit, refreshing your slice and dice. Now I know the above estimates are kid grade maths but I believe there is potential there.
Kid grade... and incorrect. For one, energy regen is 20 every 2 seconds, not 20 per second; hence your total energy regen is about 300 per 30 seconds. Secondly, if you have Cut to the Chase (as you're assuming), you also have Hunger for Blood, which, assuming you want to keep it up (and you do), you're spending about 90 energy every 30 seconds on that. Now, you will get some back from focused attacks, but you're only talking at most 40 or so per 30 seconds. Thus, your available energy to spend on Mutilate + finishers in 30 seconds is only about 250, not 600. So you get 4 Mutilates, which works out to around 11 combo points. So, on average, you get 3 finishers during a SnD, the 3rd of which needs to be spent on SnD if it hasn't refreshed by then. If we actually grind out the numbers, we find that on average we have to do 1 SnD every 4 Envenoms or so - which, while certainly a few extra, is far from being able to sustain it purely through crits alone.
Of course, the real problem is that finishers are such a small portion of our damage, relatively speaking; the fact that you get an extra envenom per minute thanks to Cut to the Chase is certainly nice, but the extra 2000 damage on the scale of the 120000 that you did through other means is just not really that big a deal, particularly for a 5-point talent at the 45-point level.
Also, smilies aren't punctuation. Please stop using them as such.
I don't see that talent working in PvE unless you somehow get bleeds or magical dot damage for the energy refund.
For 120 energy, you can either:
a) Do 4x Hunger for Blood, which does 15% of your damage for 40 seconds. If you're at 2.5k DPS (SW gear, decent groups), that's 15k damage.
b) Do 2x Mutilate and a 5-Rupture (if any of the 4 Mutilates crit or you Ruthlessness procs).
I don't know exactly how much damage b) does, but taking 3k Mutilates (MH+OH including crits averaged) as a guess (from 1k SS non-crits) and 2k Rupture (from combat rogues as well), that's 8k total. Making HfB about twice as good, and a ~150/200 DPS increase.
This does not take energy pooling (AToI/FW) issues, cycle issues, the possible return of Enve/Evi, etc. into account, it's just a rough estimate that HfB isn't as bad as you might think
I don't see that talent working in PvE unless you somehow get bleeds or magical dot damage for the energy refund.
It's not a great PvE talent, but it's certainly a fair one - I mean, it's damage contribution is probably larger than all 5 points in Cut to the Chase put together. Seems to me that Hunger for Blood is the only reason you'd even take Cut to the Chase - otherwise, you'd be better off just going 44/22/5 or 41/25/5.
Im working on a little mutilate cycle damage modelling program in java, and ive got a quick question about mutilate mechanics, its something I came across recently and had never seen before. Assuming the rogue has Offhand weapon spec, (which they should, IMO), is mutilate affected by DWS and offhand penalty twice?? Heres what I mean, going from the calculations I came across concerning the Offhand attack.
Mainhand mutilate hits for weapon damage+AP mod +101
Base offhand attack (BOA)= (weapon damage + AtkPwr Modifier) *(0.5[offhand penalty] *1.5[DWS])
basically, if you had two identical weapons and 5points in DWS, your offhand should white-hit for 75% of what your mainhand does.
offhand Mutilate, then, does (BOA+101)*(0.5[offhand pen.] *1.5[DWS])
For a simple example, lets say your average white hit for your mainhand (after AP) is 100.
MH Mutilate hits for 100+101=201
OH Mutilate hits for 75+101*.75 = 132
Or does blizzard simply calculate the mainhand mutilate, apply the offhand penalty, then DWS, for the offhand blow?
MH Mutilate hits for 100+101=201
OH hits for 100+101*.75 = 150.75
From my experience, this seems to be the case, just lookin for a second opinion.
06/16/08, 6:05 AM
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