mhdmg = random value inside the damage range of the mainhand weapon
ohdmg = random value inside the damage range of the offhand weapon
ap = attack power
poisoned = 1 if target has a posion debuff; 0 otherwise
dwsrank = rank of Dual Wield Specialization (0-5)
opprank = rank of Opportunity (0-5)
Basically the important thing to notice is that the +101 modifier is not afflicted by the Dual Wield Penalty, but does benefit from Dual Wield Specialization. It's not intuitive behavior but that's what tests have revealed. I think you can find the posts that first discovered (or at least reported) this behavior in the first few pages of this thread.
Strange thought here. As we know, having a fast offhand isn't really a necessity with Mutilate builds, but it can help with poison application. In fact, switching from a slow to a fast offhand generally produces a small DPS increase on Dontmindme's spreadsheet due to this. It then occurred to me that having a slow MH really doesn't buy us much either, so I swapped that out for a faster one and noticed just a slight loss of DPS (leaving MH weapon open for WF, so no poison bonus). I interpreted this as meaning a slow MH really isn't that necessary either (yes it helps, but just by a few DPS).
I pose this question to the more capable theorycrafters out there: would it possibly make sense for an Assassination rogue to run with two fast daggers, granting greater returns from Focused Attacks?
Last edited by Professor Hurt : 06/22/08 at 1:42 PM.
I am unsure about that fast MH thought, so I'm not going to comment on that, however, the fast OH one might be a real case...
Lets just remember all that we have going for fast OH dagger come WotLK...
Focused Attacks... more attacks, more procs obviously..
Deadly Brew... Double the gain from fast OH compared to current standings, once again more attacks, more procs.
And when we compare JUST those 2 to the dps lost from Mutilate, you don't really need a calculator to say that fast OH is the better deal.
I only wish we could find some GOOD endgame PvE 1.3 daggers...
Strange thought here. As we know, having a fast offhand isn't really a necessity with Mutilate builds, but it can help with poison application. In fact, switching from a slow to a fast offhand generally produces a small DPS increase on Dontmindme's spreadsheet due to this. It then occurred to me that having a slow MH really doesn't buy us much either, so I swapped that out for a faster one and noticed just a slight loss of DPS (leaving MH weapon open for WF, so no poison bonus). I interpreted this as meaning a slow MH really isn't that necessary either (yes it helps, but just by a few DPS).
I pose this question to the more capable theorycrafters out there: would it possibly make sense for an Assassination rogue to run with two fast daggers, granting greater returns from Focused Attacks?
It's certainly possible, though there is one key difference between MH and OH: the offhand only hits for 75% of its normal strength (50% if you don't have DE spec). Thus the mutilate damage loss of using a faster dagger in the MH is 33% larger than the loss for using a faster OH. I think on the whole that it's unlikely the a fast MH will make sense, especially if you're using Windfury, but I haven't done an modeling on focused attacks myself to be sure.
Weapon speed has no effect on the bonus from windfury weapon totem. Windfury weapon (the shaman-only non-totem self-buff)does depend on weapon speed, but that's because it has an internal cooldown.
What Garak said is correct, although WF does seem to favor a slower weapon in reality (but only slightly). Even with WF specified, I only lose between 4 and 6 dps when switching to a fast MH using the DPS spreadsheet. Maybe I'll try and come up with some numbers in the coming days to see how the math plays out.
Weapon speed has no effect on the bonus from windfury weapon totem. Windfury weapon (the shaman-only non-totem self-buff)does depend on weapon speed, but that's because it has an internal cooldown.
I know, maybe my point wasn't clear. I was responding to a post which among other things talked about IP in the mainhand, and IP does depend on weapon speed (faster is better), so if you're running WF instead of IP....you lose some of the argument in favor of a faster MH. Reading again more carefully you're weren't assuming IP on the MH, so my mistake there, but my point about the damage loss of the MH being 33% bigger than the loss on the OH stands....I'll leave is to someone who knows how to model Focused attacks to answer the overall question, but consider the following:
moving from a 1.8 speed to a 1.4 speed increases the number of swings by 28% of the hand. Thus you're increasing you overall energy regen from Focused attacks by no more than 14%, actually less when you include instant attacks.
I'm thinking that since it is more viable it might be a 'solution' to keeping enough DP on the target for Envenom to be viable. Or is that too far out? Dual IP and maxed poisons.
I'm thinking that since it is more viable it might be a 'solution' to keeping enough DP on the target for Envenom to be viable. Or is that too far out? Dual IP and maxed poisons.
The gains to fast MHs from deadly brew and focused attacks assumes no WF which is already sub-optimal. Furthermore mutilate will hit harder in the expansion than it does now due to the extra 10 points to allocate in talents like hunger for blood, opportunity, and blade fury (which doesn't make it hit harder, just hit twice). Situations were 'upgrading' to a faster MH dagger might exist depending on luck, or lack there of as the case may be, but unless blizzard makes some major mistakes with itemization they should be fairly uncommon.
The main reason this is true is because all the extra energy regained more crit/sec via a faster MH weapon are primarily going to be spent on less efficent (DPE wise) mutilates.
Bottom line, the bar for required stat boosts to make a fast MH worth using is not going to move that much relative to where it is now.
Envenom has a lot of potential. I wonder if not it would be worth it if Deadly Brew instead reduced the amount of stacks needed per Envenom. Essentially making 1 and 2 pointers free. Ah well, not going to happen.
Hansie: Use a spreadsheet and/or consult the Rogue PVE DPS article. You can find the relevant spreadsheets linked in that thread as well.
On a murderable boss, murder is usually a superior talent to anything else you can swap it with (imp. evis, imp. poisons, vile poisons, etc.) On a non-murderable boss, murder does nothing for you.
Recent theorycrafting has determined that on a rupturable boss it is usually best to run a straight SnD/Rupture rotation (3-5s/5-5r), ignoring Eviscerate entirely. This is true because (a) eviscerate does less damage than rupture, and (b) it costs more energy. Thus, I would not recommend a build that takes Imp. Eviscerate unless you are also trying to PvP with it. However, consult the DPS spreadsheet for your particular gear level.
The best cycle for nearly all Mutilate rogues is 3-5s/5r, indicating that you perform Slice as soon as you hit anywhere from 3-5 CP, but always Mutilate to 5 CP before Rupturing (even if it means some CP go to waste). Mutilate rogues with T5 2pc may get slightly more mileage out of three finisher cycles like 3-5s/4-5r/4-5e. A Mutilate rogue may sustain 100% Slice and 100% 5-CP Expose Armor uptime using 3-5s/5a. However, it is advisable to ask a Sinister Strike rogue to do so rather than a Mutilate rogue, as the Mutilate rogue's cycle is highly susceptible to poor proc luck.
Yes, but only if these two conditions are true: (1) you do not have a warrior tanking, and (2) you have a talented Expose Armor. In other words, this is a very specific situation. If you need to use it, chances are your guild will plan an encounter around it specifically. (EG, some guilds build Brutallus groups for Paladin/Druid tanks and have a rogue keep up Imp. EA for a raid-wide DPS increase.)
Yes, but only if these two conditions are true: (1) you do not have a warrior tanking, and (2) you have a talented Expose Armor. In other words, this is a very specific situation. If you need to use it, chances are your guild will plan an encounter around it specifically. (EG, some guilds build Brutallus groups for Paladin/Druid tanks and have a rogue keep up Imp. EA for a raid-wide DPS increase.)
I wouldn't necessarily put that first condition as being absolute. Much of it has to do with playing a rogue intelligently rather than requiring only druid/pally tanks and/or specialized encounters.
I presently run with ImpXA Mutilate using a warrior as our primary tank in Sunwell. He's an aggro beast, which certainly helps, but I also don't do unwise things like open with mut > mut > 5cp ImpXA; effectively locking out a healthy chunk of his initial threat generation.
If you open with a normal DPS sequence (getting SnD rolling and 5cp built up) it will "generally" allow the warrior to get plenty of threat off the start. If you really burst the CP's, drop on a rupture first and cycle in ImpXA at the second cycle. Same thing if you notice that he hasn't built rage or missed shield slams. It lets the warrior get 4-5 Sunder/Devastates up, after which, they only lose the threat generation of the sunder effect itself.
My general cycle uses SnD > ImpXA > Rupture. I can almost always keep all three active, and only the rupture requires coordinating my timing to have AtoL and FW up. Mutilates fit nicely into a three finisher very easily.
The DPS difference with ImpXA is around 4.35% for ALL physical DPS classes (including your tanks getting additional threat by hitting harder). On some of our Brutallus fights, I've loosely calculated this to be 600 additional DPS for the raid. Under normal raid buff conditions, it ends up being closer to 350-400. This is more than I would benefit the raid if I had dual glaives. And yes, my DPS _is_ lower than full combat rogues by roughly 5%. But really, they're one of the reasons that I'm putting ImpXA up in the first place...
So I'd amend the rules to be more along the lines of "communicate with your warrior tank if you're going to use ImpXA. Make sure that he's comfortable with the change to threat and practice on a few mobs before trying on bosses."
is the mutilate-rouge a new support with this build (as than survival hunter)? supporter
I can't speak for Left, but I know that this is how I view my role in the raid.
Personal DPS is great for flexing in the forums and showing what an incredible stud you are. It's also an important aspect of PvP. But this thread is about Mutilate in a PvE role. The entire raid effectively doing DPS, utilizing class synergy, and executing strategies is what kills bosses, not one superstar individual. Not a single of the top DPS performers would be where they are without the rest of the raid (usually pretty blatantly) propping them up with buffs to allow their gear and skill to shine.
As an added benefit to the ImpXA build (and depending upon the fight mechanics, of course) I generally find myself up in the top 5 DPS at the same time that I'm buffing the raid. The more physical DPS you bring to a specific fight, the better it is to have ImpXA available. Here's our Brutallus fight from Tuesday so you can see how many Feral/Warrior/Hunter & Pet/Rogues/Enh Shammies get a benefit from this buff. Your sacrifice to get it? Some time lost to rupture and trading Murder for ImpXA (bosses in Sunwell aren't murderable anyway).
Improved Expose Armor is certainly a great ability on certain fights, and contributes valuable raid utility; however, it's worth noting that Mutilate rogues hold no advantage in terms of keeping it up over combat builds; both specs can keep 100% uptime on both SnD and EA. Hence, it's not so much that "Mutilate is the new support spec" as "Rogues in general have the ability to add a bit of raid utility by grabbing Imp EA"
Improved Expose Armor is certainly a great ability on certain fights, and contributes valuable raid utility; however, it's worth noting that Mutilate rogues hold no advantage in terms of keeping it up over combat builds; both specs can keep 100% uptime on both SnD and EA. Hence, it's not so much that "Mutilate is the new support spec" as "Rogues in general have the ability to add a bit of raid utility by grabbing Imp EA"
Very well said, Ald---I guess I was beating around the bush implying that rogues should view themselves as more than just a single variable class. You summarized it nicely. We're definitely not hybrids, but we do have the ability to bring more to the raid than just a big sword.
Combat rogues certainly can bring the ImpXA to the table, as well. I would only give a slight advantage to the Mutilate rogue applying ImpXA for a couple *VERY MINOR* points:
-A Mutilate rogue often has more slack in their cycle than a standard combat rogue, implying less potentially broken cycles.
-In a broken cycle (or a mobile fight where DPS time may be a bit limited) a mutilate rogue will generally be slightly faster to recover because of the quick CP generation of Seal Fate (without relying on CD's like AR).
-Because the mutilate spec will not produce the same DPS output of a combat rogue to begin with (in Sunwell gear, under the current patch), they are perhaps the better candidate to provide raid buffs.
Okay. Interesting situation. I currently am GM of my guild here on boulderfist. I have an officer in my guild that refuses to spec out of mutilate to combat swords. Obviously he doesn't carry his weight in dps. Last night for example, on tidewalker, he got out dpssed by an enhancement shaman. How should I approach him? I guess that's what I'm really trying to figure out. Because he is a good friend of mine and I don't want him to erage... but I do want him to understand that his dps as a rogue at our lvl of content is drastically low.
1) I can't comment on whether or not it's easier to manage Imp EA with Mutilate or not, only having ever done it as Combat; but with a little practice, 100% uptime on both SnD and EA is extremely straightforward. I struggled with it a bit the week we were learning Brutallus, but thereafter I was able to pretty consistently hit 100% uptime on both (or at least, no Imp EA drops and comparable SnD drops to the combat rogues that were running rupture).
2) On a frequently interrupted fight, a Mutilate rogue will be able to more quickly reestablish Imp EA; on the other hand, on a frequently interrupted fight, one has to wonder if it might not be better just to use Sunders, as their quicker stacking offsets the extra damage from Imp EA on short-segment fights. Meanwhile, on a slightly longer fight - like, say, Brutallus - the ability of the combat rogue to pop AR to get both SnD and Imp EA up in the first 7 seconds of the fight is not to be underestimated.
3) As combat or Mutilate, you're only really losing your rupture damage by running Imp EA; and my sense is that the typical Mutilate rogue is rupturing a bit more often (and sometimes during Expose Weakness), hence loses slightly *more* damage than an otherwise comparably geared combat rogue. Close, certainly, and it's not really a big deal either way... but still.
So, ultimately: both specs have their plusses and minuses in terms of Imp EA; for Brutallus, I'd argue a combat rogue is slightly better, while for Felmyst I might take Imp EA (assuming you're using it at all - I think a lot of guilds don't find it worth the hassle). Regardless, I think the larger factor than spec in terms of Imp EA maintenance is simply the quality of the rogues involved; poor usage of Imp EA (i.e. gaps or undersized EAs) will cost you vastly more damage than the difference between a Mutilate rogue and a combat rogue, so I would argue that what you *really* want to do is assign your best rogue who isn't tied up doing something else to the task. For instance, if your best rogue is also the GM, or is in charge of Heroism rotations, or whatever, you may wish to choose your second best rogue; short of that, I'd just pick your best rogue (or, if all rogues are of comparable skill, the one that complains the least about doing it) and go with that, without worrying too much about spec.
Originally Posted by Anderton
Okay. Interesting situation. I currently am GM of my guild here on boulderfist. I have an officer in my guild that refuses to spec out of mutilate to combat swords. Obviously he doesn't carry his weight in dps. Last night for example, on tidewalker, he got out dpssed by an enhancement shaman. How should I approach him? I guess that's what I'm really trying to figure out. Because he is a good friend of mine and I don't want him to erage... but I do want him to understand that his dps as a rogue at our lvl of content is drastically low.
1) While Mutilate is weaker than combat, it's not so much weaker that one should be losing to enhancement shaman. So you may need to consider the possibility that he just plain sucks.
2) I'd simply explain that if he can't do competitive DPS, you're not going to be able to bring him to progression and/or DPS-limited fights anymore until he fixes it; if he can do that without respeccing, fine. If he has to respec to do it, also fine. If he's fine with missing progression raids, that works too.
Okay. Interesting situation. I currently am GM of my guild here on boulderfist. I have an officer in my guild that refuses to spec out of mutilate to combat swords. Obviously he doesn't carry his weight in dps. Last night for example, on tidewalker, he got out dpssed by an enhancement shaman. How should I approach him? I guess that's what I'm really trying to figure out. Because he is a good friend of mine and I don't want him to erage... but I do want him to understand that his dps as a rogue at our lvl of content is drastically low.
First of all, I'd rather know what his actual dps was and how many times he got graved as opposed to the shaman. I found that the more I got graved the more it hurt me as mutilate than it did as swords - possibly because of the ease of picking the cycle back up + all the combat goodies like AR and BF. Additionally, mutilating several times without FW buff might also have played a small role.
I have always been combat swords or combat fists. But after our guild broke down, I have hardly played my rogue at all. Now some friends has started a new guild that will start ssc again, and have convinced me to join to help out. But, to restart and go combat sword didnt sound fun, so I have specced mutilate. Which, brings me some problems.
1. Using the spreadsheet, it seems that [Dagger of Bad Mojo] will be very hard to replace, and if I can get my hands on another one would last very far into MH/BT. I have read all posts in this thread, but cant remember seeing an answer to this question: DoBM x2 seems to outperform most combinations up to high lv. Including badge daggers. The best I can get before MH/BT is [Blade of Serration] for mh, and put DoBM in offhand. But still, that only shows like a 3dps increase. So my conclusion is that stats--> dagger dps? Its after all a 96 dps dagger against a 103 dps. Getting [Fang of Vashj] in as mh would only give 0.17 dps increase
I will ofc follow the spreadsheet, but wouldnt u say its bad itemization from blizzard?
2. I´ve been looking a little ahead. As combat swords I used to use the SSO badge legs. But now when i specced mutilate I checked with the spreadsheet and I lost alot of dps by using them compared to t5 due the 4pc set bonus. This made me a little curious, so i changed gloves, legs, shoulders and head to t6. And I must admit that I was a litle surprised by the result. According to the spreadsheet I would gain 19.07 dps by changing 4pc t5 to 4pc t6. This brings me the question: Is the t5 4pc set bonus over powered for mutilate? For that small dps increase it hardly feels worth spending the dkp. Its less then 5dps on each piece, and I would have to have the equipment in the bank until I got all 4 pieces.
It also changes from 3-5s/4-5r/4-5e to 4-5s/5r by changing that, which is kinda understandable. But since its alot of running on most bosses, kicking and so on. Will the first 1 really be useful in reality? Or should I stay with 4-5s/5r until i gets used to it, and then maybe start trying to put in some evi?
I´ve only had time to do a karazhan, but this far I like mutilate alot. Will have to find me some decent addons to easier keep track of energy, pw and dots, then it will be ace.
Thanks alot for this thread. Its alot of useful information in it
Okay. Interesting situation. I currently am GM of my guild here on boulderfist. I have an officer in my guild that refuses to spec out of mutilate to combat swords. Obviously he doesn't carry his weight in dps. Last night for example, on tidewalker, he got out dpssed by an enhancement shaman. How should I approach him? I guess that's what I'm really trying to figure out. Because he is a good friend of mine and I don't want him to erage... but I do want him to understand that his dps as a rogue at our lvl of content is drastically low.
I'm not sure how getting out DPSed by an enhancement shaman is such a shocking thing. I have one in my guild and we both put out close to 1600 DPS on Anetheron so the #1 spot goes back and forth between the 2 of us. My guild is 5/6 SSC, 3/4 TK, 4/5 Hyjal with no bosses down in BT to give you an idea of what we have for gear.
2. I´ve been looking a little ahead. As combat swords I used to use the SSO badge legs. But now when i specced mutilate I checked with the spreadsheet and I lost alot of dps by using them compared to t5 due the 4pc set bonus. This made me a little curious, so i changed gloves, legs, shoulders and head to t6. And I must admit that I was a litle surprised by the result. According to the spreadsheet I would gain 19.07 dps by changing 4pc t5 to 4pc t6. This brings me the question: Is the t5 4pc set bonus over powered for mutilate? For that small dps increase it hardly feels worth spending the dkp. Its less then 5dps on each piece, and I would have to have the equipment in the bank until I got all 4 pieces.
It also changes from 3-5s/4-5r/4-5e to 4-5s/5r by changing that, which is kinda understandable. But since its alot of running on most bosses, kicking and so on. Will the first 1 really be useful in reality? Or should I stay with 4-5s/5r until i gets used to it, and then maybe start trying to put in some evi?
According to the spreadsheet currently, the 4pT5 set bonus is worth 75 DPS for me. That surprised me; I didn't expect it to be that high. (If you want to see what the set bonus itself is worth, regardless of the other stats on the gear, just enable the set bonus manually on the "Gear_Buffs" sheet in the "Set Bonuses" block.
There was some discussion a while back about the way the set bonus was calculated before, but I think DMM has changed it since then. It's now on the "Optimize" sheet, and it's showing an average cost reduction of roughly 10 on every finishing move. That is a huge cycle reduction for Mutilate, so yeah, I can see how it is worth so much. Huh; who knew. (I guess I'll have to go back and try to get my 4pT5 to try it out.)
06/22/08, 11:51 AM
.
Similar Threads
