Erm, I just inspected you in the armory, now, undoubtedly you have some better gear then me, and some worse, but I am clueless how are you dishing out 1.6k DPS over a Anatheron fight. Maybe it has something to do with my DPS meters... What are you using, and what is your meele group composition?



My issue is that in a full meele group, with a near perfect Mutilate cycle( and a normal mutilate/DWspec build) my dps meters shows max 1.1k dps. Any one have a clue as to why is that?

PS: My armory might be showing pvp spec using vanir's, but most of the gear is same for mutilate, except that I am using [Heartrazor] + [The Mutilator] for weapons.

maybe its his rotation that he uses?did you check his stats? maybe he stacked something you didn't.

There isn't much you can do as mutilate except 3-5s/5-5r, if you use 3-5s/4-5r/4-5EA or evis you are loosing dps, which was proven by the spreadsheet and experience.

He focused a bit more on agility then me, he has a better chest and some other gear, however I have some other better gear. Seriously I am doubting a typo more then anything else. 1.6k dps as early t6/late t5 content is kinda... imba( unless you are a destro lock and exploit the heck out of your amazing scaling)

I am also using a "best" meele dps group.

Enhancement shaman
Dps warrior
Ret Pala
Rogue
Rogue

(only thing better for me would be a BM hunter instead of a rogue... but that provides less group scaling due to WF not affecting him, also my shaman isn't twisting, but thats only 50dps MAX)

You dont need the best melee group to put out 1.6k as Mutilate on Anetheron here is a WWS of me putting out more than that in our hunter group.

The ability of Mutilate to do decent damage outside of the melee group is very nice factor, at least for me since my guild tends to have a pretty variable raid composition.

Could you tell me your group setup, your crit is mighty high, feral in group?

Also, if your group composition is something like this:

BM
BM
BM
Feral
Muti Rogue

This setup can dish out some serious pain... Ferocious Inspiration stacks, aka 9% extra damage which DIRECTLY affects mutilate output, with a Mutilate build favoring crit, hello feral druid.

Also I can not exactly catch your Armory to compare gear, cause you logged off in "PvP-PvE" gear with a quasi PvP spec.

Could you cache your Mutilate PvE gear in www.be.imba.hu It is a nice little tool that allows you to save your gear set and spec for offline viewing regardless of what is on the armory( however you have to update it from the armory)

Be Imba! - the online Character Auditor for World of Warcraft

This is you on beimba from outdated info, 8 days ago. Probably correct, and from it I can conclude that your gear is much more superior to mine.
( Dunno, something strange there, 2 tanking trinkets, wth?)

Hmm, maybe I overstocked on Hit rating... I need a new trinket, thats for sure, but DST refuses to drop every week. Getting quite annoyed with that.

This group setup will completely gimp the rogue and it won't be optimal for the hunters either, due to the lack of a shaman in the group. Windfury is not optional even for Mutilate. At best the 9% overall damage boost will make up the loss.

Initial impression: Today's announcement that WF will stack with poisons in WotLK could make envenom much more viable when combined with Deadly Brew....now if they'd just fix Cut to the Chase, we could get something interesting like a 5r/5v rotation going.

Blizzard just annouced that totems are going to be raid-buff, GoA and SoE will become one totem and windfury will be a buff that will stack with poisons

The trinkets are part of my avoidance set that I used in a raid where we finished with RoS (that fight just seems to go better when I dont have to worry about random deaths on the enrage) and I forgot to change out after. I have also been playing around with my avoidance set this weekend which is why the specc is so odd.

Imba has my current gear now. I normaly use [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] and [Shard of Contempt] for my mutilate trinkets.

Also the group composition was:
BM
BM
Survival
Enhancement Shaman
Mut Rogue
The DPS Spreadsheet has me droping 28.28 dps from switching from WF to IP and GoA. That is alot less than my lose from Battle Shout 151.62 dps and less even than Sanctity Arua 32.31 dps.

I see, AToL explains the HIGH crit rate on WWS. Still I am not closer to solving why I am doing so little dps as recorded compared to you guys.


The fact is, Ismail is hands down better geared then me, no questions asked, but I am still under the impression that I should be bringing some 1.3k dps minimally when I compare our gear...

My rotation usually goes like this:

Open with Mutilatex2; S&D 4-5; Muti2x; Rupture 5-5. After that Its either Mutix2 then pool some energy while waiting for S&D to drop, or Mutix2 and Rupture if I have 5CP and perform a quick 2-4CP S&D.

Maybe the fact that I have very low crit is affecting me too much...

Could you post a link to this WWS report? I looked back at your posts but didn't see it. I'm able to top 1100 DPS on Gruul as Mutilate without any gear from T5/T6 content (do have badge stuff though), so my hunch is you're either missing some kind of buff or making some kind of error in your approach, but it's hard to say without looking at a WWS.

What is your hit at in raid gear Iliyan?
Maybe thats where your losing dps?
I know mutilate doesn't require nearly as much hit as Combat does,but needs about 220+.

Mutilate doesn't *need* any specific amount of hit, nor does combat. Yes +hit gear is very valuable and it's highly recommended you at least cap hit for yellow attacks, but beyond that there's no magic hit number, no "must have" threshold, or anything of the sort (other than excess hit going to waste).

In other words, just because you have a low hit rating doesn't mean you won't do great DPS (possibly even better than someone with a higher hit rating).

Yea,but isn't 200 a good number for mut?
If you can go lower would more dps come from it by socketing other stats then hit?

Just read what he wrote, there is no 'good' number. Cap for yellows (something like 170 i forget exact number) then check what spreadsheets give for relative stats to each other in your gear.

I understand what he said.
I had just gathered from reading though this thread since it started that 200 was a good number,but if 170 is a good number i'm gonna be regemming very soon.

The yellow cap vs Bosses is 64 assuming you have 5/5 Precision which you should or 142 with out it.
From a quick look at your gear two easy upgrades you could get are [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] and either [Brutal Gladiator's Leather Gloves] or [Trickster's Stickyfingers].

No no no, don't go regemming just yet! My statement is more a state of mind one should have when looking at rogue gear. Hit is great, but so is agility, crit, attack power, haste, etc etc. Some are better than others at different times in a rogue's career: it all depends on what gear you have and how much of one stat you're trading out for another.

The best course of action for every rogue is to download one of the many fantastic spreadsheets available on these forums. Make sure all gear/gems/buffs are 100% accurate, then start playing around. Try replacing some hit gems with agil gems for example, or vise versa. If, *with your gear*, lowering your hit results in a DPS loss, then don't drop any. However, it's very possible regemming with more agility will result in a DPS increase. Just remember: there are no magic numbers for any stat.

Due to sometimes being more than two rogues in our raids I decided that we should take rotations regarding who will be out of the melee group. It was my turn and I ended it up being in a double BM hunter, feral, resto shaman group. Not too bad of a group by me. Shaman was dropping GoA and on BT trash I thought I should just try double deadly poison/envenom spam for a change. My crit rate on that group with AToL, x2mongoose procs and GoA was around 55% maybe a bit more. It was such a joy seeing 2-3 envenom crits in a raw hiting for 4-5k. I just hope cut to the chase will be tweaked a bit so that you can actually keep slice and dice running with envenom crits alone. It will be such an enjoyable spec.

In response to both the value of +hit, and mutilate dps discussions. Here is a wws of my rogue alt Grendael ( The World of Warcraft Armory ) on Gorfiend: Wow Web Stats (alt BT night ftw

In a mix of ZA and badge gear (and a couple kara pieces and t5 lvl pieces) I managed 1.7k dps, this was with dual dagger of bad mojo (executioner on the mainhand, I did that a while ago while it was being over valued and I had more -armor from other ZA gear), but the new mainhand is the only change vs what is on armory now. So yes 1.6 should be achievable in pretty easily accessible gear to someone entering t6 zones. This was in a good group, dps warrior, enh. shaman, feral, one bloodlust I think. Also don't gimp yourself by not using consumables, that was with a flask, agi food, and a scroll of agi and str (really wanted to see what I could do).

Also +hit does not seem particularly vital for mutilate (good yes, but don't stress over hitting any arbitrary number), that wws was with the same 138 hit rating currently shown on armory there. As I understand the rule of thumb is to focus on agi over hit for mutilate (the reverse of the general rule for combat), with the usual caveat of "consult a spreadsheet for the most accurate information available specific to your situation".

The rotation I have settled on is: Run in and shiv, slice and dice then mutilate immediately, pool energy then SnD again, mutilate to 5cp and rupture inside FW if possible, mutilate once, pool energy then SnD, continue with 2-4s-5r pooling energy before SnD but rupturing asap. I find you should be able to get nearly every rupture inside of the find weakness buff if you pool energy correctly before hitting SnD (two non crit mutilates on top of a non-ruthlessness proc should be pretty rare). Forcing myself to pool energy like that was a big adjustment for me when I switched from combat. Without having to worry about combat potency procs capping you out unexpectedly you can cut it much closer to capping as mutilate, and you will want to do so when trying to squeeze out every bit of dps possible by getting ruptures inside find weakness.

Hopefully some of that may help, or if any of it is wrong please let me know.

Humm, seems I am approaching Mutilate the wrong way. Favoring Hit Rating... But I never thought it would affect my dps in such a HUGE way...

I mean WoW, Eyegore that was amazing... 1.7k! In that gear, now I knew that Mutilate sometimes "favors" lesser gear, but DAMN...

I don't like your rotation though.

Hmm, I guess ill go spreadsheet my brain out. Since I have a VAST array of gear stored in my bank. And Lots available too.

As to answer some previous questions:

Hit: 351( 20hit food, and Romulo's--> My first item to replace)
Crit: 26.91% with Agility pot, BoK, GoTW
Att Power: 1945 with Agility pot, BoK, GoTW

Ill try to focus much more on agility, and see what turns out.

Simply gemming for hit instead of agility would not account for the large DPS loss you're seeing. Picking inferior gear pieces because they have hit could be hurting your DPS, but the same idea applies to combat gearing as well....you should always be trying to maximize your dps via a spreadsheet regardless of spec, not aiming for certain magic values of hit. If you have a WWS handy, I still think it'd be worth popping it up here and seeing if there are any play or buff issues going on.