Couldn't things like a Haste Potion every cooldown seriously skew results? Or certainly be significant. Surely no one actually does this regularly?
Winterchill, Anetheron, Kazrogal, Najentus, Akama, Teron, Illidan (baring a transition in the next 15 sec) are all on CD.
Azgalor our melee are on doomguards, so I use 1 at the start before first doom, 1 at the end when we run in for last 20%.
Supremus during p1's
Gurtogg (during Fel Rage)
RoS (p1 and p2)
Archimonde, Mother, Council my pot CD is saved for health pots, RoS p3 I use a nature resist pot just before the phase starts and dont even think about potion cd after that.
Considering the only fights to really "test" dps on are:
Winterchill (super lucky DnD's), Anetheron (lucky no-sleeps), Teron (lucky no dooms)... checking Haste on every CD doesn't seem so unreasonable. Not to mention that when you raid ~7-8 hours a week, the cost is pretty minimal. This is 2 haste pots per fight generally, maybe a 3rd on Gurtogg and then 5-7 on Illidan. Total of ~25 or so a week. Assume potion spec alchemist, thats ~60g a week.
... you'd be surprised at the damage per energy of talented Sinister Strike, even with daggers
I can promise you I wouldn't. It'll be approximately 2/3 the DPE of a Sinister Strike with swords/fist/mace. Energy cost is the same. Weapon speed is ~1.8s compared to ~2.7s, and the AP is normalised to 1.7s compare to 2.4s, so assuming equal base DPS on the weapons, a dagger SS hits for ~2/3 of a sword SS. Even less if you have a particularly fast dagger in your main hand for some obscure reason.
That is not worth it.
Originally Posted by hannigaholic
(which I've taken for those times when you absolutely have to dps from the fron - against Leo's Inner Demons for example).
In such cases you should be swapping your weapon out for a sword - it only costs one GCD.
Inner Demons have 10k hp and take 65% more damage from Nature. You have 30 seconds before you get MC'd. You're running DP offhand and have Cold Blood in your build. Does anybody really find it necessary to swap in a sword? I didn't. "I have to do something special to kill my demon" sounds a lot like "I can't be useful against Kael's weapons."
Sure, you can kill it without switching to another weapon. But that's not really the issue. The issue is, can you kill it *faster* by switching to another weapon? Because if you can, you should, because the faster your demon dies, the sooner you get back on the boss, and the more damage you do to him as a result. And the more damage you do, the less of an issue the enrage time is. And, on the whole, as Mutilate, you probably do benefit by swapping in a sword (or fist, or mace) - assuming you have a reasonably decent one.
Good point... how are you supposed to dps in Hyjal w/o Blade Flurry, yikes! All I remembered was blade flurrying while Combat Daggers and getting backstab blade flurries on other mobs that were facing me. Wow, and to think I lvl'ed 60 to 70 as Mut.
I think everyone agrees that mutilate rogues eviscerate more than any other spec in a raid environment. Is speccing Imp evisc a waste of talent points? I rarely see it in any of the "example" builds around.
Also, how good is murder really? I asked some similar talent comparison questions in the Roguecraft 101 thread, I got some answers but the discussion kind of diverged to another topic.
What I'm mostly interested in now, is a comparison between murder and imp eviscerate. Also, how many points are "enough" for Imp poisons.
well I dont have in mind of which type of mobs the bosses in bt/hyjal are (humanoids, demon what so ever)
but basically I would highly favor murder because if you take 1k dps as a basic
murder would increase your dps by 20(10 per point).
If you're going for a snd/rup/evis(if snd/rup up) cycle I dont think eviscerate will it make over 5-7% of your damage which would be an increase of 5-7 dps (2.5-3.5 per point).
As eviscerate doesnt scale like your total dmg (mutilate + white, hope i dont have to back that up in numbers ;D)
therefore the difference becomes even bigger with higher dps numbers.
What I was asking myself is in regard to weapon enchants ... i currently switched to mutilate (therefore lack of crit)
but I'm pretty enjoying it ;D
But now I question myself whether I should get exec / mongoose or dual mongoose.
Its kind of wierd ... basically I'm feeling dual mongoose is pretty strong for a mutialte build (specially because I'm lacking crit) but then executioner is very well scaling with all this -armor around.
Hope you can give me some advice (and back it up with numbers a bit)
I can promise you I wouldn't. It'll be approximately 2/3 the DPE of a Sinister Strike with swords/fist/mace. Energy cost is the same. Weapon speed is ~1.8s compared to ~2.7s, and the AP is normalised to 1.7s compare to 2.4s, so assuming equal base DPS on the weapons, a dagger SS hits for ~2/3 of a sword SS. Even less if you have a particularly fast dagger in your main hand for some obscure reason.
That is not worth it.
In such cases you should be swapping your weapon out for a sword - it only costs one GCD.
Oh don't get me wrong, I completely will be doing that in those situations. In fact when faced with it I'll actually be swapping out both weapons for swords since my offhand sword is significantly better than either of my daggers.
What I was really trying to get across was that, when you have talented Sinister Strike, using it to go from 4CP to 5CP, at least for the SnD component of the cycle, is not going to lose you dps compared with using Shiv to do the same thing and will probably be preferable to simply staying at a 4CP SnD. I think that using it to do the same on other finishers is overkill and likely counter-productive but a single SS to bump up your SnD CPs if far from "obliterat[ing] any margiinal gain you might get from the changed cycle"
Assuming your luck with trinkets in raids is terribad, how good would the Battlemaster's Cruelty trinket be (40 crit static so about 1.8%)? Obviously it will also serve me in PVP.
The numbers aren't done yet for Mutilate, hence this discussion thread. They are all good questions to ask though.
If I recall correctly, Executioner mainhand is slightly stronger than Mongoose for the endgame combat rogue. Mutilate benefits a little more from Mongoose because of the extra combo points from crit, but it'll still be close. Plugging it into the simulator, it predicts an increase of 4 dps switching from Mongoose to Executioner. This is with 604 passive armor penetration (Signet of Primal Wrath, Slayer's Handguards and Shoulderpads, Stormrage Signet Ring).
Eviscerate will typically be your third-priority finisher on boss fights. Improved Eviscerate provides a dps increase of only about 1 per talent point. On trash you'll use it even less - Envenom is better when you don't have to let Deadly Poison tick. Which leaves the importance of Murder. In Mount Hyjal, none of the bosses are murderable, and from trash only necromancers. Black Temple is a little better: Naj'entus, Shade of Akama, Gurtogg Bloodboil and the Illidari Council are all humanoid, and most of the trash is too. Murder is definitely worth taking over a marginal talent like Improved Eviscerate.
The issue is, can you kill it *faster* by switching to another weapon?
Yar, you're right of course.
I did some napkin math (while drinking my morning rock star, so beware!) and I'm still kinda skeptical. I used Merciless weapons, 2200 AP, and 30% crit as my benchmarks. Roughly 55% of my DPS came from white damage as Muti, and I usually did ~900 DPS, so lets say we do 495 white DPS, rounded up to 500 to make numbers easier. Demon has 10k hp, so we're gonna kill it in 20 seconds anyways without pushing a button -- the question, as you pointed out, is how to kill it faster. SS is definitely higher DPE (11.3 untalented, 12.7 talented) than Shiv (6.5), meaning in the long-term it's gonna be more sustained, but we're talking an extremely short term here: probably 10 seconds, 15 at the outside. We also have CB and the Nature bonus drastically affecting the DPE/damage. I don't think you can count on stacking DP up to 4 or 5 within that time frame without Shivving, so if you're not Shivving, you probably have to use Evisc.
Assumptions: CB on the Envenom / Evisc, demon takes 165% nature damage, FW is up for finisher if you could do it with a reasonable amount of energy banked, S&D refreshed on Leo before turning to demon.
3 Shiv + 4CP Envenom is 924 + 3247 = 4171 * 1.1 = 4588 / 137 energy = 33.5 DPE 3 SS + 4CP Eviscerate is 2289 + 2248 = 4537 * 1.1 = 4991 / 155 energy = 32.2 DPE 4 Shiv + 5CP Envenom is 1232 * 1.1 + 4059 = = 5414 / 171 energy = 31.7 DPE 4 SS + 5CP Eviscerate is 3052 * 1.075 + 2750 = 6031 / 195 energy = 30.1 DPE
So, just eyeballing those numbers, it looks like with Merciless-grade weapons, Shiv + Envenom is just as fast and efficient as SS + Evisc. SS + Envenom is probably ideal but I don't think we can count on DP stacking in that short time.
Interesting; although one thing to consider would be that with the ridiculous multiplier to nature, it probably makes sense to use an Envenom with even only 3 stacks of poison. And if you have a fast OH (which not all Mutilate rogues do, but nevertheless) you will usually apply 3 stacks in roughly 10 seconds. So SS with a small envenom might also work.
Also, you can do a hybrid of these; bomb 1-2 SS to start with, and then check the number of poison stacks; if you have enough, just keep SSing; if not, switch to Shiv to get enough stacks before dropping the Envenom. If you get really colossally unlucky and get *no* poison procs outside of the Shivs, you end up hurting yourself a bit; but in the 90% case where you get 1-2 poison procs regularly and can add 1-2 more with Shiv, it's probably the fastest way of getting the job done.
Neshalin - I'd really LOVE an unbuffed simulation/talent comparison for those of us who are Arena whores.
The huge white damage talents (SnD/DW/Precision) presumably will be much closer to the yellow ones (Opportunity etc.) without Haste Pot spamming and similar?
Crazy thought here, but has anyone ever switched to using normal backstab during poison immune boss fights? Consider that with 41/20/0, neither skill will benefit from Opportunity bonuses, and of course none of the +dmg to backstab found in the combat tree apply so it's clear you won't see combat-dagger like numbers. On the flip side, there is no reliance on the mob being poisoned. Lastly, the CP generation of backstab would be inferior to mutilate, but it would be better than combat daggers due to Seal Fate, so not terrible.
I'll see if I can jot down some math for this in the next day or so. But until then, am I messed in the head, or would this be worth putting some testing toward?
Crazy thought here, but has anyone ever switched to using normal backstab during poison immune boss fights? Consider that with 41/20/0, neither skill will benefit from Opportunity bonuses, and of course none of the +dmg to backstab found in the combat tree apply so it's clear you won't see combat-dagger like numbers. On the flip side, there is no reliance on the mob being poisoned. Lastly, the CP generation of backstab would be inferior to mutilate, but it would be better than combat daggers due to Seal Fate, so not terrible.
I'll see if I can jot down some math for this in the next day or so. But until then, am I messed in the head, or would this be worth putting some testing toward?
I admit the thought had crossed my mind several times but I just figured all the things you said that are against backstab (CP generation and bs not being talented) and gave up on the idea.
CP generation would be better than combat daggers, but the thing is that combat daggers has other crap to boost overall dmg while we rely on CP generation. I think anything less than normal mutilate cp buildup would severely hurt our damage output.
But by all means do the math. All i'm saying here is just speculation based on my limited knowledge on class mechanics
Notes: I died in the end at Gurtogg thats why 86% presence only (was few percents ahead easily). Didn't post Reliquary of Souls nor Mother Shahraz due I disconnected on both and they are not that awesome fights anyway. I can just tell that this Mutilate variation is simply awesome at Shahraz because shadowres gear doesn't gimp it at all near as much SR gear gimps combat specs. I can still maintain 30% + T6 trinket + Mongoose crit and have near 3000 AP which gives me everything I need. I simply don't need hit except for yellow damage cap.
Our other rogue is PvE Combat Swords with quite alot better gear than me and I'm not sure if hes drinking haste pots that I don't do. My gear ain't totally optimized for my spec either yet (waiting Shadowmaster boots and rings etc to drop, gem replacement). He doesn't appear on every fight because we are changing depending of loot needing. I can post full BT CombatLog if someone really wants it but I cut those above fights for you. We didn't kill Illidan today either due time issue. Please tell me if the reports have some errors, only second time I'm messing with WWS.
Edit: Full run log added. SWStats seem to show totally different skill breakdown than Recap and WWS (higher total yellow damage percent).
Edit 2: Spreadsheet also shows that 20AP gems are fairly better than 10AGI in both unbuffed and buffed section with 43/0/18. Is this due Serrated Blades boosted Rupture and AP benefit on it? I've kinda noticed that [Wicked Pyrestone]'s are best in yellow socket but not sure about red one.
...Leotheras and Vashj, i would frequently come out a solid number 1 for I believe the reasons you raise.
What was your task during the Vashj fight? I presume not the elementals? My guild's learning the fight now and although I'm anxious to spec back to mutilate (for a nice break from combat), I'm afraid I'll do more harm to the raid than good to myself. However, the +15% movement speed will help tracking those elementals down...
I took a 41/20/0 spec to Black Temple yesterday: Loading... . The fight I performed best at was Gurtogg Bloodboil. Got ghosted on Teron Gorefiend, unfortunately. My gear is about the same quality as ekval's, but missing a fourth T6 piece.
What was your task during the Vashj fight? I presume not the elementals? My guild's learning the fight now and although I'm anxious to spec back to mutilate (for a nice break from combat), I'm afraid I'll do more harm to the raid than good to myself. However, the +15% movement speed will help tracking those elementals down...
Ask if you can help down the Naga, I came number one as 41/20 on the naga and it does need to go down fast
Ekval, by the looks of it, the Assas/Sub mutilate variant compares horribly to combat swords. You're lagging dps by 15-25% on any reasonable comparison fight, unless I'm somehow reading this wrong. Unless you're deadset on remaining 43/0/18 in order to not respec for pvp, it seems like you could get another 10-20% dps easily by going 41/20, based on both my own observations as raiding 41/20 this week, as the 41/20 logs posted above. Is there any particular reason to try to optimize an obviously subpar spec?
As for my personal observations, I was in for Arch + all of BT this week as 41/20, and placed as top rogue on 4 or 5 fights and no lower than 95% of our combat swords rogues' dps the whole night (Gorefiend.) We were running a 3 rogue/War/Enh shaman group, so we got WF rather than GoA, which I feel hurts the performance a little. I'll try to get logs for next week to add more information to this. Overall though, I'm feeling there's definitely underrated viability for mutilate builds in PVE.
Last edited by roosevelt : 01/10/08 at 3:12 PM.
Reason: numbers wrong
Ekval, by the looks of it, the Assas/Sub mutilate variant compares horribly to combat swords. You're lagging dps by 15-25% on any reasonable comparison fight, unless I'm somehow reading this wrong. Unless you're deadset on remaining 43/0/18 in order to not respec for pvp, it seems like you could get another 10-20% dps easily by going 41/20, based on both my own observations as raiding 41/20 this week, as the 41/20 logs posted above. Is there any particular reason to try to optimize an obviously subpar spec?
As for my personal observations, I was in for Arch + all of BT this week as 41/20, and placed as top rogue on 4 or 5 fights and no lower than 95% of our combat swords rogues' dps the whole night (Gorefiend.) We were running a 3 rogue/War/Enh shaman group, so we got WF rather than GoA, which I feel hurts the performance a little. I'll try to get logs for next week to add more information to this. Overall though, I'm feeling there's definitely underrated viability for mutilate builds in PVE.
It's hard to compare your dps to mine or so due different group setups, buffs etc. Our melee dps group only consists usually enhancement shaman, no dps warrior or anything else, sometimes retri paladin.
Stated earlier that 43/0/18 definetly ain't combat sword good but I'm so fed up of whole combat tree and it's style, that's why the wanted change. I'm quite sure that spec is near as good if not better than 41/20/0 but it is really dependant on crit so you can run fast cycles (high rupture uptime).
Combat sword good? No. Viable? I would say so. If I can stay at same position in damagemeters than with combat swords I feel it is definetly viable enough. I love the QR and FF even in PvE and I'm giving those talents alot attention when I think spec. Between 41/20/0 and 43/0/18 I'd say it is personal reference what you want to play, just wanted to get rid of combat for good once. 43/0/18 has quite alot potential when you get your gear and stats on right place, it most likely requires more geartuning than combat variation.
Question: [Vengeful Gladiator's Mutilator] or [Tracker's Blade] for 43/0/18 in PvE, any clue or opinions? The spec itself is quite much yellow damage based so that prefers Mutilator but on otherhand I don't have Imp. Poisons so Tracker's Blade would probably give better DeadlyPoison status.
What was your task during the Vashj fight? I presume not the elementals? My guild's learning the fight now and although I'm anxious to spec back to mutilate (for a nice break from combat), I'm afraid I'll do more harm to the raid than good to myself. However, the +15% movement speed will help tracking those elementals down...
Naga's it's the best job for melee to do on that fight.
01/07/08, 9:21 PM
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