Possibly, though it would surprise me a bit; they haven't changed any of our other talents over to rating (i.e., Malice is still 1% crit, not however much crit rating).
After posting I was wondering how far they'd go to change all types of "Armour Penetration" to a percentage debuff. I doubt they'd change Sunder Armour, or Expose Armour (Didn't they try that during the rogue review and decided against it?), nor will I think they would change the CoR or Faerie Fire debuffs apart from probably scaling all of them up to account for the armour increase from level 70 to 80.
This means that Serrated Blades is one of the only flat armour reducing abilities available to any class (correct me if I'm wrong). Could it allow Rogues an easier path to complete armour penetration than other classes?
Another thought I've just had, does anyone know how the percentage reduction from Armour Penetration Rating interacts with absolute armour reductions like the ones I've listed above. If it applies the percentage reduction after the Sunder/Expose/CoR/FF debuffs are applied you end up getting less bang for your buck from the direct reduction abilities as a result, APR less enticing as a stat compared to current armour ignore stat. It doesn't seem logical for it to work any other way however, but it could apply the percentage debuff first (per character, depending on the amount each has) then apply the absolute debuffs, which seems backwards.
I don't think Armor Penetration rating has been implemented yet... Its only half there, some items have rating, some don't mob armor is still bugged, and your character sheet can not read the amount of penetration you have.
It's unclear how armor penetration rating will work as it doesn't actually work yet on beta (according to the last information I heard -- perhaps outdated as I'm not on beta myself). All of the discussion related to armor penetration rating has just been speculation or in some cases suggestion.
I heard that in 2.4.3 they nerfed the Ember of Azzinoth both in proc rate and in it's dps. I know that before, if I'm not mistaking, the ember did 15-22dps or so, and was wandering how much dps is it doing now?
(forgive me if this is the wrong place or if any of this is discussed elsewhere)
Turn the Tables - how is this talent not worth having for raid content? If there is no sort of cooldown on it, the tank will make sure you get a 6% crit chance constant on mutilate hits. Or is that not worth 3 Points? I assume when compared to Puncturing Wounds it seems a bit overpriced.
Cut to the Chase - how much do we know about how well eviscerate will scale in the expansion? (not a rhetorical question btw) If changes are made to the mechanics of the skill, or the way it scales with AtP, it could make eviscerate part of a rogue's raid cycle. Possibly even with the addition of glyphs from inscription, the balance between skills can be expected to change, right? Since evisc might be part of a cycle, won't that make the talent worth having and basically getting a free SnD refresh based on your crit rate?
Hunger for Blood - I can understand the significance of wep expertise or opportunity but 5% dmg for 10 secs? Isn't that quite a lot? Depending on the amount of encounters that put debuffs on raid members, wouldn't a free skill that gives pure percentage upgrade be worth 1 talent point? I can understand how this skill might seem like it's more PvP oriented, but think of the effect it could have in a raid instance like Mount Hyjal where half the time you're afflicted by a curse of some sort. Now of course this makes the talent highly situational, but I wouldn't be surprised if a saw a Mutilate cycle with HfB right after a finisher and using skills with both FW and HfB running.
CttC will never be viable in its current state... it is a chance on a crit chance to proc a 5cp s&d... which would say, you have to do manual S&D anyway most of the time... Since you can do max 2 evises per a cycle( and risk droping S&D which is not worth it).
However, should it be changed to lets say, 100% chance whenever you do a Evis or Envenom to give 1/2/3/4/5 CP S&D it *might* be worth it, since your cycle would consist of pure dps, after the first manual S&D...
CttC will never be viable in its current state... it is a chance on a crit chance to proc a 5cp s&d... which would say, you have to do manual S&D anyway most of the time... Since you can do max 2 evises per a cycle( and risk droping S&D which is not worth it)
It's a 100% chance on a crit which could be viable with high enough crit rate. With 30% crit chance you have a 30% chance of getting eviscerate dmg and an snd... basically you're spending 10 extra energy for the dmg of an eviscerate. I can understand how it may not be worth playing it on chance, but what if the chance is high enough that it's worth the risk?
EDIT: I posted before your post edit btw.
and someone get an admin to delete that post above mine!
Well, thing is that your crit will not rise so high to allow every evis to proc CttC... As it stands atm you need 83 Agil for 1% crit at lvl 80 on the beta... This is more the double then what is required at lvl 70( provided that stats on items nearly doubled, but still I would not expect crit to spike up...)
Also, note that Evis doesn't come for free like Rupture and S&D do... the 10 energy you lose will cost you a lot in the long run, this might change IF evis proves to become as good as a scaling ability as it seem on the beta atm... Which I doubt to be honest, It would provide pvp issues if we get even more burst damage since it might result in the comeback of the good-ole CS--> BS--> CB--> Evis crit and a dead target... and I don't think blizzard wants that ever again...
Well it seems we agree that CttC MIGHT be viable under very specific circumstances which I assumed were more likely than you believe. That's basically the reason I brought it up. I just wanted to see what the likelihood of evisc becoming part of a raid cycle was.
This statement makes no sense. The relative worth of Weapon Expertise will remain essentially static from 70 to 80, because all other stats scale at the same rate. Yes, the amount of expertise rating that the talent adds at level 80 will increase to about double what it gives at level 70, but at the same time, the gear available at level 80 will have about double the stat allocation as "equivalent" gear at level 70. Thus everything cancels out. There's a reason the talent awards expertise and not expertise rating.
You might be right of course, but if you look at the various profession buffs around like the leg patches and scopes you will see that they add from 33-50% more value over the current ones. The leg patches in particular seem rather settled since they come in three steps. Three steps until raiding is a lot, so it isn't unreasonable to expect that last ones to be either raid drops or some Exalted rep grind.
So in actual effect the 'enchants' drop down. It isn't impossible to assume that Blizzard wants less power to these things, but I don't think it would change anything, people would still get the best ones. So at this time they are the only thing we have to go on, and they are relatively weaker than our current ones. So perhaps Expertice would drop overall making Combat Expetice worth more relatively.
You might be right of course, but if you look at the various profession buffs around like the leg patches and scopes you will see that they add from 33-50% more value over the current ones. The leg patches in particular seem rather settled since they come in three steps. Three steps until raiding is a lot, so it isn't unreasonable to expect that last ones to be either raid drops or some Exalted rep grind.
So in actual effect the 'enchants' drop down. It isn't impossible to assume that Blizzard wants less power to these things, but I don't think it would change anything, people would still get the best ones. So at this time they are the only thing we have to go on, and they are relatively weaker than our current ones. So perhaps Expertice would drop overall making Combat Expetice worth more relatively.
Well, we can also look at gems. The craftable epic gems in WOTLK currently award double what the epic gems from BC award now -- for example, 10 agility versus 20 agility (link).
As for the leg armors -- I'm not sure what you're looking at, but the 3rd tier leg armors are more than twice as good as the best BC leg armors. Wyrmscale Leg Armor (link) awards 100 AP + 36 crit rating. Also keep in mind that 3rd tier leg armors are bind on pickup. To me, it looks like they are intentionally nerfing the comparative strength of the lower tier leg armors, to boost the incentive for Leatherworking.
The best scope is not twice as good, but also the mats appear (kinda early to tell) to be less costly as well. It's possible they are intentionally weakening the ranged slot enchant since currently only hunters can get a ranged slot enchant, which means they essentially get one more enchant slot than anyone else.
This is all conjecture -- but regardless of these points, even if weapon expertise becomes stronger, it would require a very hefty buff to become comparable to Opportunity.
Well it seems we agree that CttC MIGHT be viable under very specific circumstances which I assumed were more likely than you believe. That's basically the reason I brought it up. I just wanted to see what the likelihood of evisc becoming part of a raid cycle was.
While there are certainly circumstances under which CttC could be a DPS boost the question is 'what is the DPS boost per talent point.' The main drawback of CttC is not just the proc chance, even at 100% the talent is weak compared to other talents. The core mechanic of CttC is replacing SnD refreshes with eviscerate or envenoms so, at most, 5 talent points will buy you one eviscerate or envenom per 30 secs. That's just not talent cost effective compared to the alternatives, even at a 100% refresh chance.
Well, we can also look at gems. The craftable epic gems in WOTLK currently award double what the epic gems from BC award now -- for example, 10 agility versus 20 agility (link).
As for the leg armors -- I'm not sure what you're looking at, but the 3rd tier leg armors are more than twice as good as the best BC leg armors. Wyrmscale Leg Armor (link) awards 100 AP + 36 crit rating. Also keep in mind that 3rd tier leg armors are bind on pickup. To me, it looks like they are intentionally nerfing the comparative strength of the lower tier leg armors, to boost the incentive for Leatherworking.
The best scope is not twice as good, but also the mats appear (kinda early to tell) to be less costly as well. It's possible they are intentionally weakening the ranged slot enchant since currently only hunters can get a ranged slot enchant, which means they essentially get one more enchant slot than anyone else.
This is all conjecture -- but regardless of these points, even if weapon expertise becomes stronger, it would require a very hefty buff to become comparable to Opportunity.
Heh... When I looked at the LW page at MMO, I apparently managed to remember the three steps but only saw Jormungar and Nerubian leg patches.
I think I know why Wyrmscale Leg Armor is that much better, yet the scopes aren't. The last leg patches are one of hte perks of being an LW. However to introduce a similar thing for scope would be like forcing Hunters to become LW/Engineer. And that can't be a good idea.
The reason Hunters can get scopes is to make up for enchants like Mongoose and Executioner on melee. So it is already balanced (if quite boring for Hunters, would love to see some sort of proc from scopes). It isn't as if scopes are anywhere near as good as even the more basic weapon enchants.
While there are certainly circumstances under which CttC could be a DPS boost the question is 'what is the DPS boost per talent point.' The main drawback of CttC is not just the proc chance, even at 100% the talent is weak compared to other talents. The core mechanic of CttC is replacing SnD refreshes with eviscerate or envenoms so, at most, 5 talent points will buy you one eviscerate or envenom per 30 secs. That's just not talent cost effective compared to the alternatives, even at a 100% refresh chance.
Is about as raid/pve viable as mutilate will get. Seems like a bummer to me if we don't even touch the 45+ tier point talents for pve.
At 70 at least, Opportunity is significantly better than Dagger Spec/W.Ex. Other than that I'm inclined to agree with you, but we know there's going to be another pass over rogues that's presumably going to have a lot of changes, so I'm not staking much of current build options right now. CttC definitely needs a buff, let's hope it gets one.
Has there been a discussion on possible raid specs during the period where we will have the new talents before expansion?
The reduction of the talents needed for Vile Poisons from 5 to 3 gives you instant access to Deadly Brew. The big question however is whether it is worth sacrificing talent points from the combat tree (3 points from Dual Wield spec) to get 3/3 in Focused Attacks. In a raid environment with high critical strike chances and considering daggers are quite fast, Mutilate is 2 attacks with increased crit chance and so on, Focused Attacks will most likely be a great source of energy (almost as good as Combat Potency? I'd like to see some math on this if possible).
So can 3 talents in Focused Attacks be as good as 3 talent points in Dual Wield?
I think 3/3 Focused Attacks would need to be on par with 5/5 Combat Potency to be able to surpass 3 points in DWSpec. Haven't made any math how good Focused Attacks could be, but I think thats within the requirements.
3/3 Focused Attacks is vastly inferior to 5/5 Combat Potency, and I doubt it will surpass DWSpec. I suppose a 44/10/5+2 build that drops the combat filler and DW Spec in favor of Opportunity and Focused Attacks might work, though. However, I think it's a bit early to worry about it until we get our talent review, since I suspect stuff will change fairly significantly at that point.
Yeah that's a good point. Even though the lower tier talents in Assassination tree isn't all that shiny (Blood Spatter, Turn the Tables), I would guess taking those 10 points from Combat tree to Assassination tree. Imp. SnD is highly waste on mutilate spec now days due Puncturing Wounds change, so 10 talent points only for Precision seem too expensive. I'd say dish 5/5 to Opportunity and then go all the way down to Assassination tree. We'll see I guess. It is still interesting PvE build as I'm personally been against "DWSpec or go home" policy in raids. Atleast until WotLK hits with it's 10 more talent points and we are back to DWSpec.
3/3 Focused Attacks is vastly inferior to 5/5 Combat Potency, and I doubt it will surpass DWSpec. I suppose a 44/10/5+2 build that drops the combat filler and DW Spec in favor of Opportunity and Focused Attacks might work, though. However, I think it's a bit early to worry about it until we get our talent review, since I suspect stuff will change fairly significantly at that point.
Of course, now with DW Spec being move to tier 1 combat (this just in :P), only 10 points in combat doesn't seem quite as far fetched. It'll be interesting to start crunching the numbers on envenom now, as between 25% Imp poisons and the 25% bpost-envenom application boost the drop time on DP shouldn't be nearly as severe....the questions remains though "is it enough". Cut to the Chase is indirectly helped by the Envenom change as well, but even on every evis/envenom instead of only crits it's not looking that strong for 5 points I don't believe.
At first blush there's a brief temptation to see if going for serrated blades works, but looking at it again the early subtlety talents are just terrible in terms of PvE filler. 18 points in combat would leave room to pick up blood spatter and infectious poisons, another possibility.
Shouldn't deadly brew be considered a boost in DP applications? With the change to WindFury totem (correct me if I'm wrong, but I am currently under the impression that WF totem now stacks with poison on MH) and deadly brew, you'll be raiding with 2x Instant Poison which would also be == 2x Deadly Poison.
Shouldn't deadly brew be considered a boost in DP applications? With the change to WindFury totem (correct me if I'm wrong, but I am currently under the impression that WF totem now stacks with poison on MH) and deadly brew, you'll be raiding with 2x Instant Poison which would also be == 2x Deadly Poison.
This is what I would think is the optimal raiding setup, however, I think windfury is being changed to a static, semi-permanent haste buff (my brother, who plays a shaman, is saying a 20% haste buff) as opposed to proccing an extra attack. Furthermore, I recently got an invite to beta (hooray!) and i can't even apply MN or crippling poisons and deadly brew isnt even working at all which is somewhat disappointing. Hunger for blood is neat though .
Shouldn't deadly brew be considered a boost in DP applications? With the change to WindFury totem (correct me if I'm wrong, but I am currently under the impression that WF totem now stacks with poison on MH) and deadly brew, you'll be raiding with 2x Instant Poison which would also be == 2x Deadly Poison.
Perhaps I am deadly wrong: but many people seems to think, that there has to be no deadly on any weapon in order to apply it through deadly brew????
But from where will the deadly poison come?
As far as I undestand db, there has to be 1 deadly (offhand), that can be applied throug instant (mainhand).
The talent is not implemented yet, but the wording suggests that you are wrong, and the talent would be essentially worthless if all it did was give you two chances to proc a poison already on your off hand. As it is, Windfury no longer being a temporary weapon buff means you can poison both weapons. As it is, DP on your off hand is already enough to keep that poison up, so your main hand would definitely get IP. Thus, you're running IP/DP anyway. If Deadly Brew just lets you keep using IP/DP but slightly increases the uptime of DP, then it is worth less than single-digit DPS.
You are. The wording of the talent is quite clear. It states that you have a 100% chance to apply a second poison when the one thats on your weapon procs.
The deadly poison will come from 'magic'.
You wont have to. As if its the case the talent is complete garbage. There would be no point in it if you still had to keep 2 different poisons on your weapons. The dps increase of it will be zero in most circumstances.
Edit: Im slow :/
So while you are wrong. You made me to think about something.
How will they determine which rank of a poison to apply? Of course they could tie it with ranks somehow (IP and DP progress rankwise almost the same and I guess they could do something similar with the other poisons). But with resent changes to poisons on beta (crippling and mind-numbing poison are not usable) I think they are going to somehow rework the poison mechanic (not just the skill and vendors). Maybe tie the effects to level and make damage completely AP based or something like that (or its just my hopes).
As it would be quite retarded to have 2 pages of different poisons on a reagent vendor in my opinion.
Last edited by nuoHep : 09/02/08 at 2:48 PM.
Reason: grammar
08/20/08, 2:48 AM
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