I've been starting to play around with my alt rogue (main pre-BC) as Mutilate spec, and one question I didn't see answered her was:
3/5 Vile Poisons and 5/5 Imp Poisons or 5/5 Vile Poisons and 3/5 Imp Poisons?
Does the amount of movement required for a given fight have a large impact on this?
Also...from what I've read it looks like Evis is still preferred over envenom if you're running WF/DP, but I didn't see that explicitly stated anywhere, is that correct? I read through this whole thread and the summaries of the main Rogue DPS thread, so my apologies in advance if I missed something obvious.
Your question about poisons should be answered in the very first post of Roguecraft 101.
Running in and out will definitely affect your DP uptime, but that still won't justify taking 5/5 Imp Poisons over 5/5 VP. If you're running in and out a lot, I'd recommend going Shiv -> SnD -> Mutilate to start your cycle against the mob. At that point, you have your poison up for Mutilating, its most important purpose. That and you'll have FW up, so you'll at least hit harder for the short time you're on the boss.
As for Eviscerate/Envenom, again, I'd refer you to the Roguecraft 101 thread. I believe it says "Envenom is a waste for anything but Mutilate rogues running dual DP."
Read through that first post once - it will answer a lot of questions for you.
Went 20/41/00 Combat Swords from 41/20/00 Mutilate and then went into ZA last night. I have to admit it is more DPS but so boringly easy. With Mutilate I would still always top the damage meters on boss fights with or Mage class leader right behind me but this seems to have opened up my lead quite a bit more.
I love Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry. Adrenaline Rush was great for burning down a mob I had to OT or for burst DPS on a boss fight. Blade Flurry was great for trash mobs packs and for having to switch to totems on Lynx.
I did notice that my Deadly Poisons applications would sometimes run out though that will probably fix itself with more hit maybe. You can't tell from my armory since I logged out with my riding crop on but I have Romulo's so I am sitting at just over 17% hit. I was also thinking about splitting my poison points to 2 points in Vile Poisons and 2 points in Imp Poisons. I was also iffy on the 2 points in Nerves of Steel that I know most swords specs take.
I was also iffy on the 2 points in Nerves of Steel that I know most swords specs take.
2 points? The "standard" build is generally 1/2 Nerves of Steel so that you can get down to Combat Potency. You've taken Endurance instead which is a perfectly valid choice - they're filler talents anyways. Nerves of Steel is nice for the later half of Hyjal and some random stuff here and there, nothing huge though. If you're taking 2/2 Nerves of Steel, you missed a point in either Vitality or Vile/Imp Poisons.
Deadly Poison stack definitely is helped out by the addition of Hit, Haste and fast OH. 1.5 spd OH, no haste and ~250 hit is a decent bit different from 1.4 spd OH, 30-60 passive haste, ~350 hit and 2pc-T6.
Deadly Poison stack definitely is helped out by the addition of Hit, Haste and fast OH. 1.5 spd OH, no haste and ~250 hit is a decent bit different from 1.4 spd OH, 30-60 passive haste, ~350 hit and 2pc-T6.
According to Recap I was only missing 3.x% of the time. Kind of sucks to have to get 100 hit just to get rid of 3% but....
Your question about poisons should be answered in the very first post of Roguecraft 101.
Running in and out will definitely affect your DP uptime, but that still won't justify taking 5/5 Imp Poisons over 5/5 VP. If you're running in and out a lot, I'd recommend going Shiv -> SnD -> Mutilate to start your cycle against the mob. At that point, you have your poison up for Mutilating, its most important purpose. That and you'll have FW up, so you'll at least hit harder for the short time you're on the boss.
As for Eviscerate/Envenom, again, I'd refer you to the Roguecraft 101 thread. I believe it says "Envenom is a waste for anything but Mutilate rogues running dual DP."
Read through that first post once - it will answer a lot of questions for you.
I read through that post before posting here....it mentions taking Vile Poisons in one place, but the other option of imp poisons wasn;t mentioned nor was the effect of movement of the relative effectiveness of the 2 talents, which is why I was interested whether the math had been run/where I could find it. The post also says that Envenom is worthwhile for Mut rogues running dual DP, and not worthwhile for combat builds. It seemed that WF/DP would favor Eviscerate, as I wrote in my post, but the 101 post is a little ambiguous on that point so I was just seeking some clarification.
I tried to do my homework from the basic resources before asking these questions, and not finding the answers I was seeking there I figured this would be the right place to go.
I read through that post before posting here....it mentions taking Vile Poisons in one place, but the other option of imp poisons wasn;t mentioned nor was the effect of movement of the relative effectiveness of the 2 talents, which is why I was interested whether the math had been run/where I could find it. The post also says that Envenom is worthwhile for Mut rogues running dual DP, and not worthwhile for combat builds. It seemed that WF/DP would favor Eviscerate, as I wrote in my post, but the 101 post is a little ambiguous on that point so I was just seeking some clarification.
I tried to do my homework from the basic resources before asking these questions, and not finding the answers I was seeking there I figured this would be the right place to go.
Ah, apologies then. I haven't seen any hard math on it (mostly because it's pretty much impossible to determine), but it seems generally believed that the times when Vile Poisons will be adding damage for you are far more frequent than those when Improved Poisons would come through for you in a mobility situation. Vile is also much more useful if you decide to pvp from time to time.
Yes, you're correct about Eviscerate and Envenom. If you aren't running dual DP, using Envenom would be silly unless you're using it to polish off a mob.
Again, sorry for misinterpreting your questions. Hope this helped!
Ah, apologies then. I haven't seen any hard math on it (mostly because it's pretty much impossible to determine), but it seems generally believed that the times when Vile Poisons will be adding damage for you are far more frequent than those when Improved Poisons would come through for you in a mobility situation. Vile is also much more useful if you decide to pvp from time to time.
Yes, you're correct about Eviscerate and Envenom. If you aren't running dual DP, using Envenom would be silly unless you're using it to polish off a mob.
Again, sorry for misinterpreting your questions. Hope this helped!
No problem at all. I'm a mod over at a Tankadin forum, so I understand the frustration when it looks like someone's asking a question without reading readily available sources first. At any rate, thanks for the feedback!
Ah, apologies then. I haven't seen any hard math on it (mostly because it's pretty much impossible to determine), but it seems generally believed that the times when Vile Poisons will be adding damage for you are far more frequent than those when Improved Poisons would come through for you in a mobility situation. Vile is also much more useful if you decide to pvp from time to time
I agree that Vile is almost always better for dps but I would imagine that Improved Poisons is actually better for PvP since you're likely to be using any 2 out the 3 Crippling, Mind-Numbing and Wound Poison instead of any damage-dealing poisons.
You mean Master Poisoner then, rather than Vile and Improved?
No, he means Vile, which also increase your poisons' resistance to dispel effects 40%. Master poisoner, on the other hand, reduces the chance for your poisons to be resisted in the first place by 10%.
While I'm thinking of it, does Master Poisoner imply than poisons use the same hit mechanics as spells?
Um, no? I mean the passive effect that 5/5 Vile Gives you:
...and gives your poisons an additional 8/16/24/32/40% chance to resist dispel effects.
I'd much rather have to Shiv a Crippling Poison knowing that the opponent has a 40% chance to completely fail as dispelling it than to watch it get dispelled easily and have a 10% better chance to apply it again.
Originally Posted by Dorvan
While I'm thinking of it, does Master Poisoner imply than poisons use the same hit mechanics as spells?
Yep, that's why Improved Poisons is a waste for pvp when 1 point in Master Poison does more than you'll need for pvp opponents, plus some nifty poison resistance of your own.
Anyway, sorry for the pvp derail. Back to raid DPS!
I agree that Vile is almost always better for dps but I would imagine that Improved Poisons is actually better for PvP since you're likely to be using any 2 out the 3 Crippling, Mind-Numbing and Wound Poison instead of any damage-dealing poisons.
Minor irritating nitpick: Wound Poison actually does do damage on application, although that doesn't change anything qualitatively since you're still using it primarily for the debuff.
Yep, that's why Improved Poisons is a waste for pvp when 1 point in Master Poison does more than you'll need for pvp opponents, plus some nifty poison resistance of your own.
Not true. You have a base 20 (or 30) % chance to apply a poison, thats the proc part. Then, if that poison procs of of an attack, you have a further 83% chance to actually apply it, and a 17% chance for the boss to resist it. This is assuming a lvl 73 boss.
Therefore, you end up with:
Base:
20% * 83% = 16.6% chance to apply
With 2/5 Imp:
24% * 83% = 19.9%
With 2/2 Master:
20% * 93% = 18.6%
Now, you do have a point about pvp where shiv'ing a target to gaurentee poison proc can be a good idea but you don't want to continue spamming just shiv when a target is staying within range, you want to let your natural auto attacks cover poison application.
Just making sure people don't get confused here and start thinking Master Poisoner will get you more poison applications than Imp poisons when it comes to pve.
Last edited by Latito : 01/17/08 at 10:58 PM.
Reason: Correcting a minor case of dyslexia pointed out by Ticia
Which part were you saying was note true, exactly? It doesn't seem like anything either of us said contradict one another.
The Shiv strategy I mentioned is only really viable with points in Vile Poisons, as you can Shiv Crippling once, then let further auto attacks or Mutilates continue to apply your MH poison and Crippling as well if they were lucky enough to dispel it.
My point about Master Poisoner was that 1 point in it is enough to cover your opponents' resistances in pvp (4% chance to resist same level targets). Maybe some things could have been taken out of context and some more explanation would've done them justice. Either way, thanks for clarifying. Hope I wasn't misleading anyone!
No, he means Vile, which also increase your poisons' resistance to dispel effects 40%. Master poisoner, on the other hand, reduces the chance for your poisons to be resisted in the first place by 10%.
While I'm thinking of it, does Master Poisoner imply than poisons use the same hit mechanics as spells?
Shows how much attention I was paying - yes of course Vile Poisons does that. Silly me.
Therefore, you end up with:
Base:
20% * 87% = 17.4% chance to apply
With 2/5 Imp:
24% * 87% = 20.9%
With 2/2 Master:
20% * 97% = 19.4%
Minor nitpick, but the 2nd percentage in each of those should be 83% (17% chance to resist). So your numbers should be:
Base:
20% * 83% = 16.6% Chance to Apply
With 2/5 Imp:
24% * 83% = 19.9%
WIth 2/2 Master:
20% * 93% = 18.6%
Conclusion is still the same, 2 points in Improved is better for applying to a boss mob than 2 in Master, but numbers slightly lower.
Originally Posted by Ozzmar
Which part were you saying was note true, exactly? It doesn't seem like anything either of us said contradict one another.
The Shiv strategy I mentioned is only really viable with points in Vile Poisons, as you can Shiv Crippling once, then let further auto attacks or Mutilates continue to apply your MH poison and Crippling as well if they were lucky enough to dispel it.
My point about Master Poisoner was that 1 point in it is enough to cover your opponents' resistances in pvp (4% chance to resist same level targets). Maybe some things could have been taken out of context and some more explanation would've done them justice. Either way, thanks for clarifying. Hope I wasn't misleading anyone!
I believe what he was trying to say was that the 2 talents affect the application of poison in fundamentally different ways, while you were trying to compare them. It's true that 1 point in Master Poisoner will be more than enough to minimize resists against enemy players, but that hardly makes Improved Poisons worthless. Improved Poisons affects the chance per swing to proc, while Master Poisoner affects the chance per proc to resist.
Your question about poisons should be answered in the very first post of Roguecraft 101.
Running in and out will definitely affect your DP uptime, but that still won't justify taking 5/5 Imp Poisons over 5/5 VP. If you're running in and out a lot, I'd recommend going Shiv -> SnD -> Mutilate to start your cycle against the mob. At that point, you have your poison up for Mutilating, its most important purpose. That and you'll have FW up, so you'll at least hit harder for the short time you're on the boss.
As for Eviscerate/Envenom, again, I'd refer you to the Roguecraft 101 thread. I believe it says "Envenom is a waste for anything but Mutilate rogues running dual DP."
Read through that first post once - it will answer a lot of questions for you.
I've taken a look at Rogue 101 regarding the posts on Imp poisons vs Vile, but I do not see any math showing that vile is better for DPS. I've taken a stab at looking at the diff but am only capable of getting as far as looking at the damage of Instant poison. (assuming its on your mainhand). The idea of doing the maths on Deadly poison procs, hurts me deeply so I'm going to throw it out there to see if anyone has done it wants to take a stab at it.
It seems that many people assume that Imp poison refers only to poisons that "stick" but personally I believe that its increased procs of instant poison are the more relevant factor in raid dps.
Since according to my quick math the increased proc of Imp poison is stronger than the increased damage of Vile, I have always preferred Imp poisons over Vile poisons when i am making a choice.
The fact that you do not need to interrupt your cycle to Shiv at annoying moments and can mostly rely on your auto attack/haste to get your poisons up is quite useful though honestly is only a worry at the top of a fight and less of a problem
I plugged the talents into the Rouge DPS spread sheet and Imp poisons came out ahead of the game. So i'm very interested to hear why so many people believe that Vile is the better dps choice.
here is my quickie math. Please feel free to amend, I make no claims at being a math genius. I used 12seconds as a base line in the hopes of moving on to figure out the damage of deadly (which ticks for 12 seconds) But was almost instantly defeated by the prospect when I got that far.
Improved Poisons -
Increased instant poison proc. from 20% to 30%
Vile Poisons - i
ncreased instant poison damage by 20% taking it from (146-194) to (175.2/232.8) per hit.
Given a 12 second period with a 1.8 mainhand coated with instant poison, you will swing 6.6666667 times. (12/1.8)
For Improved Poisons this means you will proc your instant poison (on average) a solid 2 times in 12 seconds. ( 30% of 6.6666667 = 2) for a total damage of 292-388 (340 avg)
For Vile poisons over the course of the 6.666667 swings you will proc your instant poison 1.3333333 times for a total poison damage (233.6 - 310.4) (272 Avg)
Recap
imp poison over 12 sec using instant on main hand =340 avg total damage
vile poison over 12 sec using instant on main hand = 272 Avg total damage
Because its consired that rogue always runs with windfury in mainhand and therefore imp. poisons only affect deadly poison in stacking. Once you've got your DP stack on target imp. poison simply doesn't do anything.
To add to what ekval said, a few pages ago in the Roguecraft 101 thread Left did some math that clearly showed DP was better than IP and that when using DP, Vile scaled damage up better than Improved did.
I believe what he was trying to say was that the 2 talents affect the application of poison in fundamentally different ways, while you were trying to compare them. It's true that 1 point in Master Poisoner will be more than enough to minimize resists against enemy players, but that hardly makes Improved Poisons worthless. Improved Poisons affects the chance per swing to proc, while Master Poisoner affects the chance per proc to resist.
Ooooh, yea, wow... That's pretty embarassing. Major brain fart!
Sorry if I mislead anyone, and thanks for catching that guys!
01/17/08, 12:26 PM
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