TheJadeMonkey

In regards to the debate on whether to delay SS for a shock or vice versa, has anyone taken into account the effect on the uptime of Stonebreakers Totem that prioritizing SS over shocks?

 

beetlejuice

no comments. just read it. i spent quite some time to see with my eyes something that maybe some dps calculators did. But now i am certain that this is the reality. You can add some hit chances or resists. by multiplying these results with x1000 or something but i am pretty sure that elemental/ enhancement with 5second shocks is the dps winner.

 

Dariusx

i tryed it yesterday and reskilled to ele/enh - and i have to say... its fun. my overall dps rised more than ive expected.

and i feel much more confortable - due the rotation is - like beetle shows us much easier/better :B

 

Manifesto

I'd like to point out one thing I haven't really seen covered...
All of these simulations are based around Searing Totem, how drastic is the change for someone who finds they can frequently maintain a magma totem at the bosses feet? (Generally if you're not twisting)

A magma totem gains a higher dps improvement from Call of Flame than Searing Totem does, and that skews in Elementals Favor, however is not shown on Yo's sim.

Also... I would be lead to believe, purely logical speculation, perhaps there is a certain threshold... based on Attack Power (converting to spell dmg) and Hit Rating on gear, that would warrant a change from Enh/Resto to Enh/Ele...
How would one go about finding starting points to run simulations aimed at that... the shift in dps when gear is also changing.

 

drats

So we just got to lurker again last night, screwed around on illidan for way too long this week. Anyways, my dps as enh/resto without totem twisting was a little higher than last weeks (ele/resto no twist), last week was around 920dps and this week was around 950.

Next week I'm going to try ele/enh with twisting. If we have a pally to judge wisdom I'm pretty sure I'll have the mana to maintain it. I suspect this will produce the highest dps, but it's highly dependent on mana regen.

 

beetlejuice

Well if you are elemental/enhancement then you can just take a look at my graph, especialy the elemental/enha graph (sequence 3), on the first line of the graph, is the GCD shown. You can see margins of 2 and 3.5 seconds (minus lag ofcourse) , which might support totem twisting but at more often intervals than the max 9seconds of the theory.

How can you achieve it.


You have already droped your totems and windfury totem ofcourse and you start your Stormstrike and Earthshock (GCD spam).Right after that and just before flameshock (1.5-2sec on shock cd) you drop your GoA totem, After that there is flameshock, stormstrike and earthshock again, then Windfury and GoA.

However. the mana consumption will be insane.. Also every 5 rotations you will need to drop your searing totem again and after 10 you will need to start renewing totems.

 

Aknazer

I think the point of the "Further Guidance" part was to set a standard for people to test in their math and sims. This was probably done because of all of the people were using their own gear and its hard to compare your data to mine when we are using different stats. But as I said they are giving the ele build a free 45 points in setting the baseline of hit at 9% for both specs.

I agree that the baseline testing for resto should be done at a 12% hit rate, as that would simulate a direct spec change and not swapping out of gear. Or to do it as I said with redistributing the value of the 45 hit into other stats to simulate being able to regear while keeping the same hit.

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/712607NIdzh.png

 

Rapparee

Rapparee - Enh/ele Wow Web Stats
Rapparee - Enh/res Wow Web Stats

Finally got the WWS from ele test night.

SEARING TOTEMS - i'd have to say that in MountHyjal, call of flame will give you about 12 to 13 more DPS on your searing totem based on the following.
Rage winterchill:
res avg hit 223, 83dps, 5% resist (2/38)
ele avg hit 290, 96dps, 14% resist (7/50).
Based on the sheer number of hits... 38 and 50.. i'd have to say that just my searing totem made it into the WWS for this fight. According to the WWS math, the resto searing totem was shooting every 2.55 seconds, the elemental every 2.66sec. From what I understand the WWS counts you as out of combat if you don't do some damage for like 5 seconds... so I'd think this does show that searing totem fires every 2.X seconds... something in the neighborhood of 2.2 to 2.5 is still my best guess.

Anetheron
res avg hit 263, 88dps, 14.2% resist (9/63)
ele avg hit 307, 155dps, 14% resist (13/84). It would appear that someone else dropped a searing totem this evening.

Kaz'Rogal
res avg hit 218, 77dps, 18.8% resist (17/90)
ele avg hit 256, 110dps, 17% resist (14/92) I doubt anyone dropped a searing totem, but it's possible, just that the number of hits and the zero movement of this guy lead me to believe it was just a perfect situation for searing totem, other than terrible resist rate.

Azgalor (technically i never DPS azgalor directly, i'm always over at the doomguards who are not boss level)
res avg hit 192, 65dps, 5% resist (3/59)
ele avg hit 223, 76dps, 10.2% resist (5/49)

Archimonde
res avg hit 220, 74dps, 9.7% resist (14/143)
ele avg hit 255, 87dps, 10.8% resist (17/156) it's doubtful that anyone else dropped a searing other than me. I know when I heal on this guy it's a challenge to run close, drop and run back.


CAN I SEE ANYTHING ABOUT SHOCKS???
I had all sorts of things written in this space comparing each bosses performance, but in the end, it was all meaningless. Each boss dies so fast that 30 shocks for res vs. 40shocks for elemental sounds good, but doesn't prove anything. I could have been the one in charge of swapping shaman around to chain heroism the melee or something.
The only useful data is that shocks went from 9% to 14% of my overall damage.
I went from 16.3% melee missing to 20.4% with elemental. probably right on the money with 3% worse.
WF went from 6.5% to 6.2% misses. zero change
SS went from 4.2% to 2.8% misses. one percent change, but still close enough to call it zero.
Earth shock went from an average of 1107 to 1263...so even if I don't cast shocks more often, they are better.
Flame shock went from an average of 597+4*209dot (1433) to 681+4*239dot (1637), they are better.

Here I'll do an example of stripping data out of a WWS to compare ele vs. resto, now that i know some key differences
If you're resto sub-spec'd.. remove roughly 3% of your melee damage and add 5% per ES, FS, and add 15% searing damage (it should be in the wws under pets), but remove 3% normal searing hits. Ignore for now that you could shock more...and see if the numbers are even remotely close to equal.
for example: kaz death from the wws. I'll reverse the elemental one.
77 melee hits = 51% of my melee attacks.... if i had been resto, i should have landed 54% of my melee attacks.
77*54/51 = 81.5. 81.5-77 = 4.5 more hits from being resto.
26% are normal damage, 25% are glancing... so really 26/(25+26)*4.5 = number of gained normal hits
25/(25+26)*4.5 = number of gained glancing blows.
being resto or elemental doesn't influence the number of crits I get, unless i take that stupid devastation talent, which i didn't.
Being restoration would have provided me with 2298 more melee damage on that fight.
How about the shock damage? take normal shock total/1.05*(% of normal hits+3/%of normal hits) + crit shock total/1.05
ES normals = 9760/1.05*60/57 = 9784, gains 24 by being resto
ES crits = 1982/1.05 = 1888, loses 94
FS normals = 9982/1.05*63/60 = 9982, break even.
no FS crits on the example.

My searing totem hit Kaz 63 times normally for 16128 damage. If I were resto, i'd have hit, 63*(79/76) times. Which turns out to be 2.49 more searing totem hits. Without Call of Flame, the average restoration spec'd searing hit would be 223. So that's 14604 damage for restoration. A loss of 1524 for resto.
Searing crits would be 1845/1.15 = 1604, loss of 241 for resto.

Right now, before figuring out whether I need to remove or add a faster shock cycle, restoration spec would have done 463 more damage on that particular Kaz'Rogal fight.
463 damage out of a total of 221263 (18k searing added to my total damage) is essentially a wash. But let's say that I would have lost 20% of my shocks due to timing... That's an overall loss of about 4000 damage, or roughly 1.8% less damage on that fight if it were a restoration sub specialized enhancement shaman.

This exercise took far too long.

 

Malan

If you don't have the 'mathematical knowledge' to calculate these things, then stop claiming that you've found the one, singular truth ok? All your doing is flinging poo into a post and labeling it gold. You pretty much took some boxes in a chart and said "oh this one fits together best that must make it the best."

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

◊ Rob

I can confirm that my calculations back this up.

 

Xoya

It's worth looking at, though. No need to be rude this time around, since the graphs actually are extremely helpful for visualizing the different possible rotations. I personally use the second rotation as enh/resto and totem twist. However, I think that once totem twisting is "fixed", all else being equal, enh/ele will be the way to go because totem cost won't be such a major factor anymore.

Edit to add:

That being said, I think we can hypothesize that the following is ideal:

If you do totem twist and do not have consistent Judgement of Wisdom: ENH/RESTO is the way to go.

If you do totem twist and do have consistent Judgement of Wisdom: ENH/ELE is the way to go.

If you do not totem twist: ENH/ELE is the way to go.

If we need to prove more with math, then I think we should go from there.

 

Rapparee

I'd say the following:
If you are geared out in tier5+6 mail, you will have zero mana problems twisting with ele sub spec.
Look at the WWS post, I showed of me as elemental subspec in Hyjal + early BT, I had zero mana issues, twisted on almost all bosses. *on Azgalor I'm on doomguards with a feral tank/dps, the rogues stay at azgalor, so no twisting there* I didn't use any mana pots.

I also described a manually intensive method and example of how to dig through your own WWS data to determine roughly how much elemental spec could have increased your DPS, or how much resto would have lost.

I do agree with you though, some people need to see the spell rotations in order to understand the subtle differences between the two specs.
However, one should easily be able to tell whether one can afford the mana to twist while spec'd elemental.
When I was in SSC/TK, I was either barely using shamanistic rage, or was sucking mana pots and wearing an alchemist's stone. Eventually I gained enough upgrades that by the time I was at Kael, I had plenty of mana, when I was smart about using SR. This was all before the new watershield and almost free shocks. And yes, I twisted back then and considered my shocks sometime to do in my free time, so it was not an aggressive shock rotation by any means.

 

rava

Going to go ahead and call bullshit. It's "impossible" to sustain twisting with an ele subspec("impossible" meaning you'd have to have 4 paladins, perma jow, chain chugging mana pots, and infinite globals). I've looked at your WWS, and you are lacking at least 30% uptime on twisting for most fights, even saw a mana pot on Najentus!

Toot a specs horn all you want, but it still appears to be DPS vs utility. The 3% personal dps gain and random twisting appears inferior to my few points in concussion and reliable twisting. Once that magic day where twisting is fixed arrives, however, ele sub will be superior.

Full price for gum!? That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

 

Rapparee

First off it's important for the concept of whether Elemental is a sustainable subspec with twisting.

So I'll educate the forums on how to read a WWS parse some more.... first, a boss fight can be 180 seconds long. That time clock in WWS sometimes can start 1 or 2 seconds early, and last 1 or 2 seconds after the line such and such a boss dies. Also, as a high crit melee class, I have to hold off my first attack until our tank has more threat (I use Omen) than I could do with 6crits (2 crits from first swing, 2crits from first stormstrike, 2crits from a WF in there). Basically I wait 10 to 20 seconds after our MT engages most standard aggro bosses. Our tank has history of avoiding several boss attacks in a row, therefore having no rage for the first several seconds of a fight.

Thankfully enhance shaman are super easy to determine timing on: simply count our number of Stormstrikes and base your decisions about what the shaman is doing during that many 10second segments.

Please remember that SS hits/crits are for each individual weapon, so in the numbers below, divide SS by two. When adding up your own SS hits/crits, remember that you should make misses count as 2 misses per miss, since it's been proven that either the entire SS misses, or the entire SS hits.

Here's real WWS numbers from 3 WWS parses that I could find.
Sebudai's http://elitistjerks.com/557854-post5180.html
Rapparee's Wow Web Stats
Pitbuller's WWS Loading...

RageWinterchill:
pitbuller - 44 stormstrikes, 9wf, 6goa: 22cycles 9wf drop cycles
sebudai - 24 SS, 13wf, 8ta+4goa: 12cycles 13 wf drops...probably 100%
rapparee - 28 SS, 13wf, 11 goa: 14 cycles, 13 wf drops, depending on whether wws dropped the first one that occurs before engaging might be 100% wf uptime. No mana from JoW or pots.

Anetheron:
pitbuller - 44SS, 14wf, 13goa.
sebudai - 34SS, 16wf, 9ta+8goa: 17cycles 16wfs, depending on whether wws drops the first one, same as above
rapparee - 28SS, 12wf, 11goa: 14cycles 12wfs, looks like i missed 1 or 2 cycles. I was slept by anetheron, so that explains an entire cycle. and again, depending on whether wws doesn't pick up the first drop before engaging...blah blah probably 90% uptime, could be 100% wf uptime. 2500mana from JoW, no mana pots, only used one SR, so I could easily have used SR early and gotten a 2nd one in.

Naj:
pitbuller - (not a kill, but a good attempt) 44SS, 15wf, 13goa
sebudai - 34SS, 18wf, 8ta+9goa: 17cycles 18wfs... wow this guy is insane about dropping his totems.
rapparee - 44ss, 20wf, 17goa: 22cycles 20wfs.... I missed one or two cycles here. probably 95% wf uptime. 740 whole mana from JoW, an almost 3k mana pot, because I didn't use an SR before the first bubble. I guess I'll have to do that next time.


I apologize to Pitbuller. I wasn't trying to pick on him, he was just the first WWS I found that used twisting other than mine. Also I apologize to Sebudai. I used the only WWS's I could find of yours. They're from a prior version of WWS, but I knew that no one would dare question Sebudai's ability to twist. So if I was close to your numbers, then I would prove that it is indeed possible to be elemental sub spec'd and do a full twist + shocks in patch 2.3.

Rava, feel free to edit your post to indicate that it is indeed possible to be elemental sub spec'd without full JoW, blessing of wisdom and so on. As you can see from the WWS, we had 3 paladins, and I made sure to beg for 10min might that night. Rava, I know you weren't attacking me and normally I take you at your word. In this case, I think you simply read the WWS incorrectly. It's easy to do, I spent many nights reading the two I posted in this thread, utterly confused as to why the fight says it's 180seconds long, but I only did 14stormstrikes. There's no way I wasted 40seconds. That's when I started digging into that 180seconds length of fight and determined it to be a sucky number to base my actions on.

 

Celetroll

0/47/14 spec fight at Teron:
WWS

16/45/0 spec fight at Teron 1 week later:
WWS

Note1: Searing totem damage is not included in WWS dps/damage done numbers. During the last fight it did total of 21k damage according to my personal damagemeter.
Note2: On the 2nd fight, ele/enh spec, we had only 2 pallies in the raid, so I raided without salvation. Thats why rotated tranquil with WF (didnt rotate anything week before, lazy, i know..).

Seeing the difference I had with thoes specs in numbers I would say that yes, there is dps increase but not that huge. On the other hand, aggro is not a problem - did full BT without salvation on and with ele/enh spec - had to watch omen abit, but overall NP.
Good for "farmraids", where you know the fight very well, but it might not be worth for new encounters/Sunwell. Unless theres lots of random elemental damage that would make Elemental Warding worth to to have.

NB! Still would like to see some brilliant mathematic to come up with (proc-average) AP numbers at witch one spec or another spec is better - 30% spelldamage from current AP cant scale exactly to physical damage from the same AP. Correct me if Im wrong, but dps balance between thoes two specs cant be equal when you have average of 1500 ap or if you have average of 3000 ap?

 

◊ Wraithlin

Ele/Enh scales better than Resto/Enh.
Therefore, unless you are below the 9% hit cap without the resto talents, I cant see any situation in which resto would be better personal DPS. However in lower tier content if you even want to attempt to twist, you will need to be resto.

For reference, last night on Morogrim as resto/enh, after 2 runs I told the rogues to put poisons on their MH because I could not keep twisiting for the full fight duration (group was rogue/rogue/feral/enh/warlock (dont ask)). I probably could have sustained the twist for the full duration with mana pots, but we were not being healed off the back of graves, so between healing myself and/or using health pots it was not sustainable.

[e]

A simplifiction of the scaling argument goes like this (assuming a mixed ele/resto with 3 in concussion).

140 AP is 10 dps, and 42 spell damage.
The difference between Resto and Ele for physical scaling is 0.03*(White DPS gain); (I have 99% uptime on UR, and high 80% uptime on flurry so we can consider those effects small).
The difference between Resto and Ele for spell damage is (Coeff of ES + Coeff of FS)*(1.05/10 -1.03/12)*42 for shocks, and (Coef ST)*0.15*42

White DPS gain: 10*(1+crit/100)= 10*(100+crit)/100= (100+Crit%)/10
For FS, Coeff: 52+15 = 67%
For ES, Coeff: 43%
For ST, Coeff: 20%

So resto scales better than ele when:
0.03*(100+crit)/10> (.43+.67)*(.105-0.08583)*42+1.26
100+Crit%> 10*(1.1*0.01917*42+1.26)/0.03
100+Crit%> 715
Crit% >615

Summary
140 AP gives Ele appx 2dps more from shocks/totems than Resto gains (42 spell damage is 4.851+9.66=14.511 for Ele, 3.9655+8.4=12.3655 for Resto); Resto gains 10*0.03*(1+Crit%/100) = .3*(100+Crit%)/100 more white DPS. So the break even point is Crit% = 615%.

This ignores the effect of: CoE, Malediction, Improved scortch. But as these effects only benefit Ele more, the result stays the same. Ele/Enh scales significantly better than Resto/Enh

 

rava

Yeah, I understand how to read a parse. I'll use the Anetheron parses for an example since I'm lazy and tired.

01:47'58 Anetheron engaged
01:50'59 Anetheron dies

Fight length: 180 seconds for simplicity. 12 WF totems preformed and 11 GoA, ~120 seconds of twisting uptime(66.6REPEATINGOFCOURSE%). This leads me to believe you a) didn't have the mana or b) didn't have the globals

Sebudai hosts the stuff on his website so I can't get super accurate timestamps so all that I can really go on is the 3 mins listed(which won't be accurate). So I'll go off of mine. Kemom - WWS

02:46'43 Anetheron engaged
02:49'58 Anetheron dies

Fight length: 190 seconds for simplicity. 18 WF totems preformed, 1 tranquil air, and 16 GoA, ~180 seconds of twisting uptime(95%, I'm bad about the totem recast thing when they're about to expire and usually miss a round sadly). Random qq about not having a warrior, a 3rd pally blessing, going oom at 40% on kaz, ect

I'm rather aggressive in my play, between a MD and the expertise change I haven't ever had to worry about aggro. It spikes a bit at the beginning if I get the whole super awesome everything crits but it fades down to a more constant within seconds and I'm never in any real danger of pulling aggro because it's just white hits for another 3 seconds after that point.

As far as the mana thing goes, here is my thinking. Use a 10 minute window and figure out the mana costs:

60 WF = 325/1.06(MQ)*60 = 18396
60 GoA = 310/1.06*60 = 17547
60 FS = 500/1.6(focus)/1.06*60 = 17688
60 ES = 535/1.6/1.06*60 = 18926
60 SS = Going to say mine's 220 from memory with MQ, 220*60 = 13200
5 SoE = 300/1.06*5 = 1415
5 Mana spring = 120/1.06*5 = 566
10 Searing = 205/1.06*10 = 1993

[top] 89041 mana to account for.

Mana gains:

Water shield

50/5, 12 5 second periods per minute, 10 minutes = 50*12*10 = 6000
Mana spring = 50/5 = 50*12*10 = 6000
6500 buffed mana, 5 rages(assuming full bar each time) = 6500*6 = 39000

[top] 52000 mana to work with.

I do not see how it is possible to sustain everything full time with that much of a mana deficit. Throw in wisdom(49*12*10

5880), jow(240/5 from what I recall in the ret thread, 240*12*10 = 28800), mana pots(2400*5 = 12000) your mana base jumps to 52000+5880+28800+12000 = 98680, nearly 10k over the mark(could do without the mana pots I suppose). Even as resto sub I find myself having to use random mana pots on council when SR decides to totally gay me and give me <2k mana. I hope those numbers make it a little more clear on why I find it impossible to sustain twisting without the talent and with faster shocks.

Full price for gum!? That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

 

Malan

Why would you have them put poisons on? You could just have just left WF down if you couldn't sustain it.

[e] Rava - you forgot to deduct another 10% off the cost of shocks from Convection. In the case of earth shock that reduces 60 shocks to a cost of 17,206 mana. Flame shock becomes a cost of 16,080.
You also miscalculated stormstrike, its 277 mana and a 6% reduction on that becomes 261, for a total of 15,679.

So the true cost of 10 minutes of maximum shocking and twisting is 88,882 mana. You were off by 1k.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

◊ Wraithlin

One was daggers the other was swords.
On that basis I figured it was pretty much equal for the group dps to drop either totem (2 rogues with WF vs 2 rogues, shaman and feral with GoA).

 

Pitbuller

Has anyone done real testing with Yo's sim about scaling differs with these specs.
I did some test with test baseline value and + n * 500ap.
Only 18shock with resto sub spec per 2minute.

Both spec give ~ 138-139dps per 500ap linearly. That 0.277dps per ap.
+3% hit gives 14 white dps + 5-6 wf dps with base value stats. Wf dps increasing is 40% of overall dps gain what is allways ignored in napking math becouse its impossible hard to model. If elem scale better with AP the differ is smaller than sim error range. Also resto scale better with armor penetration, haste, on hit procs and even with crits(more wf:s) but these margins are silly small.

Another draw?

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

◊ Wraithlin

Look up 4 posts, no literally 4 posts, thats how lazy you are.
I already showed that elemental will always scale better than resto with AP, but most (about 65%) of the difference is tied into totem damage (which isnt in the simulator or damage meters). Even then the difference is a matter of 1-2 dps per 140 AP.

Obviously Resto scales better with crit and armor pen, but then you are asking 3 different questions.

 

Pitbuller

And how your napking math include Wf dps increase? Or why +3% hit is +3% white dps sim show its 3.1-3.2%. And with resto sub spec is easier to wait to SS if wf is CD. Searing totem scale only 1dps/500ap better with elem but if you include spell hit change sim show its scale even worser.
You can see that your math is flawless and pointless if just put 100% crit in sim and see how resto out dps elem subspec. That will never happen if elem scale better right?

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Celetroll

Another ball to throw into is single or multitarget DPS? E.q are we only talking about wws at bosses or also the speed (trashkill) reaching bosses?

Without any question, ripping through MH trash with pallytank/aoe strat (as any serious guilds are doing) your DPS will be significantly higher with ele/enh spec.

 

Titan2000

Im new here but i was wondering if anyone added in Elamental Devistation (3pt tallent gives 9% mele crit for 10sec. on a spell crit). Am i a noob for thinking this would be a good reason for going down the ele tree, other than the 16pts people normaly take. My spec is 18/43/0. i took one form Weapon Mastry to cap the 3 points.

Also can someone direst me to a forum about totem twisting? I have never heard of it.

 

◊ Cireena

If you where to read THIS thread you would note the following.