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Old 01/17/08, 2:09 AM   #196
Hothgor
Piston Honda
 
Orc Shaman
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
No the smarter thing to have done would be to delay the shock until after you had used SS, pushing your shock timer off a bit. This is no secret, it happens to me every night I raid.
Which again, would keep you from casting 10 shocks a minute. Delaying your shocks for even half a second will change your total from 10 to 9, as you can not make up that time.

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Old 01/17/08, 3:30 AM   #197
Rapparee
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Draenei Shaman
 
Bloodhoof
I was enhance tonight, and decided to collect some tier6 enhance/elemental numbers. Shoot, my guild leader has not posted the WWS yet. I will do my best to update this with a link. Also, spec... i was 16/45, concussion, call of flame, reverb max.
Rapparee - Enh/ele Wow Web Stats
Rapparee - Enh/res Wow Web Stats

I was able to totem twist + as good of a shock rotation as I could manage. I'm not perfect with the cooldowns, so I probably won't be able to realize a DPS gain, other than just the randomness of high crit.

The major feature I saw that would cause elemental sub-specs a big headache is interruptions on bosses.
These were all the major interruptions, I had during my test of enh/ele spec.
One melee D&D in the Winterchill fight.
Two infernals on the melee in the Anetheron fight.
Kaz was warstomping, screwing up my GCD rotations a ton of times.
Azgalor (i was on doomguards) silences + warstomps.
Archimonde (one doomfire in melee, and i think 3 airbursts).
Najentus, his shield screws up the GCD rotation..essentially resetting it.
Supremus, our guild runs away during the kite phase.
Akama, I found out that 20yard range on totems is more than adequate to allow you to drop them dead center and reach every guy on the platform. Great fight... flame shock, earth shock, earth shock, move to next guy.
RoS, I'm not allowed to EarthShock if Deaden is casting soon.... so I do a frost shock rotation or just screw the rotation on that phase. This is a boss where you want obscene raid DPS, so try to do something with your free time.
Gurtogg, i used the prism of inner calm and only did melee attacks for the most part and still had to hold DPS every so often. But you can go all out on FelRage sections which are 30seconds long, exactly the correct length to allow an elemental subspec to land one more shock than a resto sub.

That's as far as we got in 5 hours. I totally didn't expect to be enhance that night, so I didn't chug haste pots, since i had just one and i didn't move the icon to my action bar.

Response to interrupting on bosses: For FathomLord Karathress, I was interrupt the priest detail. Way back then, i was always resto subspec, but because that add wasn't boss level, it was very rare to get a resist while wearing no +spell hit. Once priest was dead I had to actually do DPS so I wore standard enhancement gear. We use the enhance shaman to interrupt Divine Wrath on the Illidari Council fight. They are boss level creatures, and so they resist a lot of ES's. Since an enhance shaman on Lady Malande is doing almost 1/4th of their normal DPS. I suggest, if you use this strat to wear a lot of +spell hit gear, even if it's not melee friendly.

Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Based off of T6 content, I don't think you can totem twist effectively without Totemic Focus. If I didn't totem twist, I would spec elemental for T6 content.
For Sebudai: mana is such a non-issue that I totem twisted and did shocks on Kaz. I wore 331ish shadow resist.
At first I had the same concerns as you, but after a little while even though I was shocking much more feverently than normal, mana was of no concern through almost all the bosses in the tier6 category.

Last edited by Rapparee : 01/21/08 at 3:54 PM.

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Old 01/17/08, 4:04 AM   #198
Brynmor
Von Kaiser
 
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Dwarf Shaman
 
Akama
Here's some math I did before making the switch to 16/45. Using the following assumptions for both simplicity of calculations and conservitism when looking at the amount of dps increase from the 16/45 spec.

Without the elem talents:
Earth Shocks hit for 1000 damage every 6 seconds.
Searing Totem that hits for 150 damage every 3 seconds.

With Concussion (+5% shock damage) that increases the damage of your Earth Shocks by 50.
With Reverberation (-1 sec to shock CD) you can now do 6 shocks every 30 secs rather then the 5 you could before.
So now;

Earth Shock hits for 1050 damage every 5 seconds.
Using the 30 sec window for shocks again, this in an increase of 1300 damage over that 30 seconds. 1000 from the additional Earth Shock, and 300 from the extra damage. 1300/30sec = an increase in dps of 43.33.

With Call of Flame your Searing Totem will now do 172.5 damage every 3 seconds, or a dps increase of 7.5. So using these simple figures getting the elem talents will get you an additional 50.83 dps. And of course as I said these are very conservative figures, and the more ap and spl dmg a shaman has the higher these numbers will be.

I'm ashamed to admit that I don't personally have the knowledge of how the resto +3% hit talent improves our dps to calculate my own figures, however from reviewing several dps charts and spreadsheets using conservative figures like the ones I used for the shock damage the average increase in dps from it was around 15-20.

I can also say from personal experience that the elemental spec has given me higher dps, not drastically not noticably. I have the rather dubious and unfortunate honor of being the best geared ehnc shaman on my rinky dink server (Akama) and have been looking desperately for ways to increase my dps when I can no longer get more badge gear and raid drops are few and far between.

The main disadvantages I have noted about the elem/ehnc spec (which others here have noted as well) are;
- an increase in threat from the slighty stronger and more frequent shocks
- an increase in mana comsumption from the more frequent shocks (and having to recast totems more often if you are moving around)

I haven't deluded myself about ehnc to think we aren't a support class and if my fury warrior, ret pally, and rogue aren't getting WF then I'm not doing my job. I have found myself often having to recast totems for my group in fights where we are moving around even just a little. Vashj in phase 3 tonight is a good example, I had the honor and priveledge of being in the tank group (lawl) and as I'm sure you know we have to keep grounding totem down to ground her stun, but because we had to move around a lot to avoid the ooze pools our tank would eat a few stuns. Same with A'lar where I had to keep recasting WF and STR whenever we had to move in phase 2.

Another disadvantage is the loss of the Imp Reincarnation talent, which if you have to ankh mid battle that extra 20% health and mana can mean the difference between getting right back in the fight or getting killed right when you rez back up. Not to mention the -20 min off the CD.

However despite these problems my current opinion is that the ehnc/resto spec is likely better for less experienced or less geared ehnc shaman who may not watch their totems closely, may pull threat and die often (or just die often), and likely don't have the spl dmg to benefit as much from the elem talents.

I have done a lot of work on excel sheets mapping cast sequences for shocks and storm strike. I have found that (assuming that all your storm strikes hit and no one is eating the charges) in a 90 sec window you will get in 12 earth shocks, ALL of which earth shocks will get the buff (assuming no resists), and 6 flame shocks with the 5 sec CD. Where with the 6 sec CD you will get 8 earth shocks in a 90 sec window, 7 of which will get the buff, and 7 flame shocks.

With the 6 sec CD you will (again assuming no resists) have a 100% flame shock up time, with the 5 sec CD there will be a pattern of a 3 sec gap between flame shock debuff up times. No matter what ability you lead off with with the 5 sec shocks if you map it out you will always fall into the pattern of ES, ES, FS, with a 3 sec downtime between flame shock debuffs if follow the use of your abilities logically.

Looking back to the difficulties of having to recast totems, after mapping my cast sequences I found the open spots where I could safely drop totems, refresh water sheild, bloodlust, basically use any GCD without messing up my rotation. As far as the mana issue goes I have about a 5k mana pool unbuffed (I wear a lot of leather) and I never have mana issues. Between Shamanistic Rage, Water Shield, and Mana Spring Totem mana really isnt an issue. As far as threat concerns with a BoS I haven't found the 16/45 spec to much worse with threat, and its still much better than we had it before 2.3. And if I find myself threat capping I always hold back a bit, wait a second or so extra on the shocks to dimish my threat while I wait for the tank to build some more threat.

To summerize, my conservative math and personal experience show the 16/45 spec to be better dps. However I wouldn't recomend it to less experienced or less geared ehnc shaman who may not be good at watching totems, GCDs, or have the ap needed to make the elem talents worthwhile, or restore enough mana with shamanistic rage. The difficulties of diminished totem range can be solved if you watch your cast sequences closely and recast totems when needed within the open spots in your rotation. If you're in a guild with good players with decent gear your tanks and healers (and yourself) should be good enough to where losing the Imp Reincarnation isn't a huge problem either.

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Old 01/17/08, 4:11 AM   #199
Callmetim
Glass Joe
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Malorne
While skimming through the Paladin Retribution forum (I know, I know...), I managed to find what I was looking for to be able to share my spreadsheet and have it error checked. Here it is: Earth Shock DPS Calculator

If there's errors, PM me or leave info here, I'll fix it.

Edited, a couple months late:

Spell damage coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

ES gains 42.86% of spell damage, according to Wowwiki. As of 7 March '08, I've gotten 1 pm (back in January, sorry, been busy) about the coefficient being 38.6% due to a penalty from interrupts. I've looked, but I can't find solid proof. If there is definitive proof otherwise (give me a link so I can be educated), I will change the formulas accordingly.

Last edited by Callmetim : 03/07/08 at 8:07 AM.

Mr. Brown can "Moo," can you?

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Old 01/17/08, 5:47 AM   #200
everwatch
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Night Elf Death Knight
 
Bronzebeard
I think the people who tried out sub-Ele spec showed a bit more than theorycrafting did. Most found a noticeable dps increase in their performance. So if such is the case, and the majority of the sound theorycrafting supports this, then the answer is plain.

But I agree wholeheartedly with Rob. Blizz did a very good job on this one, and it is about preference. Which spec suits you the most? The dps increase is nice, but then again its not so much to ignore cheap totems, faster reincarnate, faster heals, etc.

Toots, I'm shocked that you only pulled threat with ele and not with resto. I find myself pulling agro whenever I don't have Salv and go all out. Are you sure you just are not doing more dmg now than before due to better gear you've earned over time or your tank was just slacking a lil because he was so used to no one stealing threat? Or were you focusing more on shocks than you do normally as resto, so you saw a much larger marked increase? If it was only a one time event, it could have been a multitude of variables that lead to such an event.

I'm a sub-ele spec man myself. Mana is never an issue so I just watch totem timers for those who have issues with losing shocks due to totems. I just drop totems between the GCD's. And if that means dropping a new totem 15 seconds early, so be it. I never go oom anyways, so why not? You should never actually lose a shock or ss due to totems or GCD. Only if you totem twist too, will mana be an issue, but then you're gonna lose shocks in there anyways most likely.


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Old 01/17/08, 8:51 AM   #201
Malan
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Malan
Tauren Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Hothgor View Post
Which again, would keep you from casting 10 shocks a minute. Delaying your shocks for even half a second will change your total from 10 to 9, as you can not make up that time.
Well of course it would, that was the point. Delay the shock not stormstrike.

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Old 01/17/08, 10:56 AM   #202
Daler
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by bestpike View Post
I didnt read all the posts
Then you'll forgive me if I don't read yours.

Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Well of course it would, that was the point. Delay the shock not stormstrike.
That should be the other way around if WF is on cooldown, shouldn't it?

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Old 01/17/08, 11:01 AM   #203
Malan
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Malan
Tauren Shaman
 
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I recall Yo tested it a long while back and he said it didn't really make a difference to wait more than 1 second, but some guy recently tested it on the sim with the new changes and he said it looks like always waiting is best. So it could go either way I guess.

Request: Can someone draw up a nifty graphic (much like the ones in the Hunter Shot Rotations Illustrated thread) that depicts the 6second shock CD interfering with Stormstrike CD? And also one that shows how 5sec shocks remove that?

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Old 01/17/08, 11:05 AM   #204
Raut
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Raut
Tauren Shaman
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Waiting the full 3 seconds if needed or just one? I always wondered about this back in my enhance days.

Fuel for hatred

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Old 01/17/08, 11:23 AM   #205
Daler
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Request: Can someone draw up a nifty graphic (much like the ones in the Hunter Shot Rotations Illustrated thread) that depicts the 6second shock CD interfering with Stormstrike CD? And also one that shows how 5sec shocks remove that?
Do you also want one that incorporates totem twisting cooldowns as well for both specs?

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Old 01/17/08, 11:30 AM   #206
Malan
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Malan
Tauren Shaman
 
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Umm I suppose so sure. More pictures hopefully means fewer people asking/proposing dumb things.

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Old 01/17/08, 11:44 AM   #207
Dukanull
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Nathrezim
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Yah we've basically agreed that the totem range is a 5man/10man or Elemental/Resto shaman talent. It can be phased out of any build I'd say.
Excepting Illidari Council of course, probably only reason I won't spec ele/enhance is due to that one fight. Tough to keep FR, FrR, SoE, and wf/goa if i'm twisting up at all times.

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Old 01/17/08, 12:00 PM   #208
bestpike
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Shaman
 
Dentarg (EU)
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
Incorrect. While Elemental can have 33% more shocks, there will still be a 84% chance to hit. Resto will have 87%.
1.33 * 0.84 = 1.12
1.00 * 0.87 = 0.87

1.12/0.87 = 1.29 or a 29% increase in shock damage output.
Well, if you want to play hard ball and play with small numbers, i forgot to mention that enhancement/elemental also has access to 5% increased damage with shocks, making the shocks from enh/ele 34.834482% higher in dps than resto .

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Old 01/17/08, 12:01 PM   #209
Malan
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Malan
Tauren Shaman
 
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I presume you're saying for the mana costs? I don't see what the twisting would have to do with the range of the totem.

Originally Posted by bestpike View Post
Well, if you want to play hard ball and play with small numbers, i forgot to mention that enhancement/elemental also has access to 5% increased damage with shocks, making the shocks from enh/ele 34% higher in dps.
You realize the guy you're quoting is like the de facto expert on elemental theorycraft right?

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Old 01/17/08, 12:04 PM   #210
bestpike
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Shaman
 
Dentarg (EU)
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
You realize the guy you're quoting is like the de facto expert on elemental theorycraft right?
Im sorry then . By the way Malan, since we agreed and everything, can you write on the first post or on the shaman theorycraft main thread that a enh/resto spec cannot shock every 6 seconds if he doesnt want to lose Stormstrikes? Because i see many people do that false assumption.

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