Beowolf

Shock Rotation with 1000 spell damage:

Base damage:
FS: 797 + 1000*0.67 = 1467
ES: 675 + 1000*(1.5/3.5) = 1103.57

Raid Debuffs (Misery, CoE, Scorch, Stormstrike) + 6% Crit Rate: (You do get AI and MotW and Kings, 5% is base, 6% isn't unreasonable)
FS: 1467 * 1.05 * 1.13 * 1.15 * 1.06 = 2121.79
ES: 1103.57 * 1.05 * 1.20 * 1.06 = 1473.93

0/45/16:
FS: 2121.79 * 0.86 = 1824.74
ES: 1473.93 * 0.86 = 1267.58

16/45/0:
FS: 2121.79 * 1.05 * 0.83 = 1849.14
ES: 1473.93 * 1.05 * 0.83 = 1284.53

Over 120 seconds, using FS>ES and FS>ES>ES respectively:
Resto: (1824.74 + 1267.58) * 10 = 30923.2
Elem: (1849.14 * 8) + (1284.53 * 16) = 35345.6

((35345.6 - 30923.2)/30923.2) * 100 = 14.30% increase to shock damage

Now assuming that you only get 1 out of every 2 SS debuffs for ES with a 16/45, but you get 20% with a 45/16, you end up with:

ES: 1103.57 * 1.05 * 1.10 * 1.06 = 1351.10

0/45/16:
ES: 1351.10 * 0.86 = 1161.95

16/45/0:
ES: 1351.10 * 1.05 * 0.83 = 1177.48

Over 120 seconds, using FS>ES and FS>ES>ES respectively:
Resto: (1824.74 + 1267.58) * 10 = 30923.2
Elem: (1849.14 * 8) + (1177.48 * 16) = 33632.8

((33632.8 - 30923.2)/30923.2) * 100 = 8.76% increase to shock damage

 

Beowolf

Now lets further complicate the matter with another possible shock rotation: Frost Shock. This assumes you have a tank that actually knows what hes doing, and you can get away with one frost shock every 15 seconds! We will now assume you only get the full 20% SS bonus for your one ES! Shock Rotation with 1000 spell damage:

Base damage:
FS: 797 + 1000*0.67 = 1467
ES: 675 + 1000*(1.5/3.5) = 1103.57
FrS: 658 + 1000*(1.5/3.5) = 1086.57

Raid Debuffs (Misery, CoE, Scorch, Winters Chill, Stormstrike 20%) + 6% Crit Rate:
FS: 1467 * 1.05 * 1.13 * 1.15 * 1.06 = 2121.79
ES: 1103.57 * 1.05 * 1.20 * 1.06 = 1473.93
FrS: 1086.57 * 1.05 * 1.13 * 1.16 = 1495.49

0/45/16:
FS: 2121.79 * 0.86 = 1824.74
ES: 1473.93 * 0.86 = 1267.58

16/45/0:
FS: 2121.79 * 1.05 * 0.83 = 1849.14
ES: 1473.93 * 1.05 * 0.83 = 1284.53
FrS: 1495.49 * 1.05 * 0.83 = 1303.32

Over 120 seconds, using FS>ES and FS>ES>FrS respectively:
Resto: (1824.74 + 1267.58) * 10 = 30923.2
Elem: (1849.14 * 8) + (1284.53 * 8) + (1303.32 * 8) = 35495.92

((35495.92 - 30923.2)/30923.2) * 100 = 14.79% increase to shock damage *** SET SHOCK BONUS FOR NOW ? ***

 

Beowolf

As for totem changes with 1000 spell damage(note: totems get 20% spell damage now instead of 8%) and 15% more damage, and 3% less chance to hit:

266 per hit
133 dps

NG: 133 * 1.05 * 1.13 * 1.15 * 0.86 = 156.07

CoF: 133 * 1.05 * 1.13 * 1.15 * 1.15 * .83 = 173.22

((173.22 - 156.07)/156.07)*100 = 10.99% Totem DPS Increase
173.22 - 156.07 = 17.15 DPS increase

 

testthewest

"251 Shock DPS 225 * 1.1479 * .97 (Concussion and Reverb mathematically came out to ~12.02% increase to shock damage while using a FS/ES/FrS rotation)"

"I dont believe that.
If you would only compare a pure ES spam, your dmg from shocks would increase by 26%.
Why is it only 12% at your example? Can you give us the math it's based on?"

Sry, missed your post above while reading your first. Can some admin please this post? Thanks in advance

 

Callmesweety

I think, this is totally wrong. i mean, whats the big point in dropping +hit (besides, where should i get that hit from??) and totemic mastery in favor of shocks?
What i mean, the reason for enhancement to be in raid - party buffs. And why would WE want to improve OUR dps instead of RAID's dps? Of course, there are shammies (like me for example) who are one of the guilds top dps char's but still. I'm always in party with rogues\hunters\etc. Not to mention i'm the only enh. shammy in the raid (when i wrote an aplication on my guild's forum, they said they gonna spec me resto, but after some raiding, while me being enh, and looking at my gear... raid leader decided to keep me enh.) + i kinda out gear rest of out dps classes (that's why i out dps them).

So i think the whole thread is... wrong (not exactly wrong, but still...). I understand that sometimes 20y are enough for your party... but i'd rather keep my resto talents (so it wont screw me up) so my raid leader wont tell me: "hey, wtf? spec 0\45\16 for raid's sake!!".

+ if you really want to burst you own dps you should be trying smth like >> this (and ask for boomkin in your grp ^.^). I understand that it's totally wrong for raiding, but it benefits YOU more...

As for the exact calculations... I cant understand why ppl cant do the whole math's themselves (unfortunately that sim doesn't work for me somehow. 404 error) i mean if they can do test on 1 spec... do it on 3 specs? flat enh, enh\resto, enh\ele.

pS. still this thread as long as the "enhance_shaman_collected_works_theorycraft_vol_i" are very usefull to me. thx a lot. just my 2 cents.

 

Moogul

The whole point of the thread, is to work out which does offer the highest *raid* wide DPS. If you buff your DPS but lower your party's DPS, as long as your gain is higher than the total other characters's losses, then the raid DPS goes up - that's simple maths. I'm a warrior not an enhancement shaman, my shaman alt is currently only a mere level 50, but from what I understand there aren't any real, tangible raid benefits from points in resto - you get slightly longer range totems and lower totem mana costs, which may or may not actually have any effect on your party's dps.

People make big assumptions, and without evidence to back it up, it doesn't mean anything. This thread was created to *FIND* if there's a big point in dropping resto talents for elemental ones. If you have evidence that it's not worth, let us know, otherwise you should wait to see what everyone else finds out.

 

• Daler

Beo, as I pointed out numerous times on the shaman forums, the average hit for searing totem is 58, not 66 ((50+66)/2). Your average hit with 1k damage will be 258 before debuffs.

Searing Totem (Rank 7)

We're looking for something more precise than napkin math here. Let's keep to Yo's sim and go from there.

 

Malan

Yah I dunno, every time someone posts all the math laying it all out it never agrees with someone elses math. Conversely we send people to the sim with various AP/Crit/hit scenarios and they all seem to agree to a reasonable point on the differences between the specs.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

• Daler

Exactly, Malan. On a related note, has anyone else run Yo's sim for the baseline and two sub specs? I keep getting the same numbers and would be interested in seeing corroboration.

 

Beowolf

Wow, your right! I don't know why I thought it was the average of 66 damage, perhaps I was simply looking at the in game tool-tip with had the 15% bonus, that being said....

258 per hit
127 dps

NG: 129 * 1.05 * 1.13 * 1.15 * 0.86 = 151.37

CoF: 129 * 1.05 * 1.13 * 1.15 * 1.15 * .83 = 168.00

((168.00 - 151.37)/151.37)*100 = 10.99% Totem DPS Increase
168.00 - 151.37/15 = 16.63 DPS increase

Edit: Judging from my inbox, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning :P Next time, I will create one 'super post' so people don't get offended, even if it makes it harder to read :P

 

testthewest

Why can't the wrongs in ones math be pointed out by these people, and the math simply corrected?
Trying stuff out on a simulator means trusting a program, which may have faults, you never find out.

Beowulfs shock-math seems right to me.

Beowulf, can you show the impact of Elem. Devastation in an Ele-spec (we all now it is awful, but even if it is very few, will add dps)?

And one mistake (if I'm right) in your math:

6% crit doesn't equal a 1,06 multiplication, since crits will only do 150% for enhance shaman

 

• Daler

Well, every collection of runs I do on the sim is coming up the same. Roughly a 0.9% DPS (11 DPS total) greater increase for elemental sub-spec over the baseline than restoration sub-spec.

I'm unable to test in-game. I raid elemental and I just don't have the time to collect the data. Any volunteers?

Assuming the simulation data pans out, how do we address the more difficult question, i.e. the trade-off of 10% reduced fire/frost/nature damage vs. 10 yards on the totem radius?

 

Malan

We don't need to prove elemental devastation is bad again, its been done to death and has the community seal of approval on it. Read the main enhancement thread for the reasoning on it. Its a horrible talent.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

• Daler

Edit: Malan beat me to it.

 

testthewest

While this is true, it is still 1% crit (under good circumstances). This will increase your dmg more, than say getting 5% more dodge. Sure it isn't nessecary wise to skill for max dmg, but in this thread, it is about exactly that (if I understand correctly).
Since it seems to be quite tight who deals more, one should factor it in.

 

• Daler

The biggest problem is that it forces you into a sub-optimal enhancement spec by forcing 18 deep in elemental. The only talents you could even conceivably remove points from to obtain ED would be Mental Quickness, DW Spec, Weapon Mastery, Imp WF Totem, or Unleashed Rage. ANY of which will provide more DPS, either personal or group DPS, than ED.

 

Malan

No, not at all. It will not provide more dps under any circumstances. Like I said, this has been done to death in the PvE enhancement thread, go look there as that is the basis upon which even the PvP mechanics arise from. Seriously, you have not discovered some new, unheard of talent spec.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Unaz

This is the only way Ele devastation would be in an elemental sub-spec without dropping dps:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

The only alternatives involve dropping points from mental quickness or Imp WF totem, which will lower raid dps. And this is only because once you're 5 into reverb, you have an extra point floating that can't go into any other dps talents.

If you're selfish you can drop one point from imp WF totem for 2 in ele devastation, which will drop raid dps slightly and increase yours (very) slightly.

It's still a shitty enough talent to not be worth considering, but at that point, there's nothing else to put it in to increase dps in any form.

 

tedv

I think the point is that the talent is fundamentally mis-designed. If you have enough spell crit to make the talent proc, you have so little attack power that melee crits mean nothing. When you have lots of attack power, your spell crit will be so low that the talent will never proc. They could swap the talent's position with Call of Flame and it would actually decrease your raid damage.

It's clearly meant to be an enhancement shaman talent in the elemental tree, so they have to make the effect proc off something an enhancement shaman will do. Something like "Your spell hits have a 10/20/30% chance to increase your melee crit by 8% for 10 seconds" would be inordinately better.

 

• Daler

We can all agree ED sucks monkey nuts as it's implemented currently. Let's stick to the project at hand, shall we?

As I see it, we need in-game testing and we need some method by which to compare the "intangibles" of each sub-spec (damage reduction vs. 30 yard totem radius).

Additionally, should we compare 2/45/14 as well? While not substantial, 2% bonus damage on shocks is still 2% bonus damage on shocks.

 

Hothgor

Unless of course Winters Chill is on the target, and you can use Frost Shock every cast. With the extra 10% crit chance, the uptime would only be ~29.5% (1-(1-.16)^2)=29.44). From what I can tell, Beo suggested throwing in Frost Shock if your tank has enough aggro, but from what I can work out, you would do a SS -> ES -> FS -> SS -> ES -> FrS rotation, or one in every 4. Assuming this to be a 2.5% overall shock crit increase, this results in a uptime of 16.27% (1-(1-.085)^2) for 3% crit, or an average of .48% extra crit chance on the average boss fight. Of course, if you were taking one point out of the elemental damage reduction for this, you would probably see better results over all. I don't think Beowolf was talking about this however. We wont know for 29 more days, seeing how hes been banned for apologizing :P

 

testthewest

I never said anything about maxing it out.
At least I have 2 points to spare in my build (17/44/0), and even if you do (16/45/0) you still can spend a point in it, instead of putting in in stuff that wont raise your dps.

The Talents that raise your dps are:
Thundering Strikes
Enhancing Totems
Flurry
Elemental weapons
Mental Quickness
Weapon Mastery
Storm Strike
Dual Wield +Dual Wield Specialisation
Unleashed Rage
Concussion
Call of Flame
Reverbration
Elemental Devastation

Talents that seem to be musthave for mana effiency:
Shamanistic Focus + Rage

So if it comes to placing 16 points into the Elemental-tree, there is no way around putting one point into ED, if you plan to max the dps, and are willing to forgo Elemental Warding.

My suggestion for max dps:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

 

Pitbuller

One point to improved weapon totems raise group dps by:
x = how many benefit it.
DR = armor dimishning returns.
z = talents multipliers.(if any)
y = normal mh weapon speed / avarage mh weapon speed
a = avoidance

x * (445 / 14) * 0.15 * 0.2 * (1 + crit) * DR * z * y * (1 - a)

Warriors get bonus rage by small amount: +rage/s = [(445 / 14) * 0.15 * 0.2 * (1 + crit%) * DR% * z% * 15] / 990


Edit: haste portion was up side down.
Edit2: forget hit factor. Do wf tomem proc glance?
Formula work with 2h or dw.
Some basic test with YO's sim show that one point to weapon totems => one point to elemental deavastion.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

testthewest

even with maxed out improved WF-totem, you still at 16 left to spend in Ele.

btw: Where do you factor in, that only mainhand-attacks are affected? Even more: How do you want to use your formula?


1 Talentpoint brings: 445*0,15= 66,75AP for every 5th white mainhandattack. Thats an unscaling 13,35 or less than 1dps more for mainhand-white attacks.

So all one talentpoint brings for the group is about 3,82dps.....whatever gear they may have.
This talent is a joke as ED is IMHO.

 

Malan

Hi can we stay on topic here? You've been jumping the train ever since you started posting in this thread. We're not discussing the merits of Improved Weapon Totems or the (laughable) merit of Elemental Devastation. Quit bringing it up. If you've got something to contribute in 3%spell/melee hit vs 5% shock dmg/1sec shock cd reduction, we're all ears.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06