Attention Resto Offspec:
Did you realize you may be missing damage?
Due to the interference of a 6s shock cycle and a 10s SS cycle with a 1.5s GCD, it is inevitable that either your shock or your stormstrike cooldown will be up while you are still in the GCD from a previous action. This happens about once every 15s.
Consider:
0s FS (CD up at 6s)
1.5 SS (CD up at 11.5s)
6 ES (CD up at 12s)
11.5 SS (CD up at 12.5s, GCD up at 13s)
13 FS (off by 1s due to GCD, CD up at 19s)
19 ES (CD up at 25s)
21.5 SS (CD up at 31.5s)
25 FS (CD up at 31)
31 ES (GCD up at 32.5)
32.5 SS (off by 1s due to GCD)
It turns out you slip about 1s on each cycle, repeating every 31s -- the equivalent of a lost shock every 186s and a lost SS every 310.
Granted, if you totem twist you're losing far more than this to GCD interference. However, eliminating this interference for non-twisters is a benefit of a 5s shock, one that may not be modeled in the simulator and will help offset the loss of flame shock ticks in a 10s cycle
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/12/08 at 8:19 PM.
Hi can we stay on topic here? You've been jumping the train ever since you started posting in this thread. We're not discussing the merits of Improved Weapon Totems or the (laughable) merit of Elemental Devastation. Quit bringing it up. If you've got something to contribute in 3%spell/melee hit vs 5% shock dmg/1sec shock cd reduction, we're all ears.
Sidenote - did I miss the loss in damage from lower spell hit on the elemental version ? What I've seen so far seems to assume that the full 5% extra damage and the full shocks are coming through.
Not losing damage there would mean a gear discrepancy between the two specs in the ring.
May well be overlooking it, but didn't spot any mention of in the last couple pages.
Dont see the point of X people posting X baselines etc etc, doing the default dps tests with the sim it seems quite clear that elemental offer som personal DPS gain which is what is supposed to be discussed. If anyone thinks otherwise id like to see the data used in the sim (post screenshots of each tab).
Furthermore Yo's is a sim so some would argue that it might be considered flawed for this specific discussion.
But either way taking a WWS log for yourself (either as elemental/enh or resto/enh) and do the maths yourself (3% increased amount of hits/shocks vs. reduced CD+shock dmg+increased fire dmg), I did and it was quite clear that Elemental came out on top.
Considering this and that I just for safety redrop totems when a repositioning happens I have been raiding elemental since.
But either way taking a WWS log for yourself (either as elemental/enh or resto/enh) and do the maths yourself (3% increased amount of hits/shocks vs. reduced CD+shock dmg+increased fire dmg), I did and it was quite clear that Elemental came out on top.
If you think its 'quite clear' than you've missed months and months of discussion about this exact topic. And the reason I said we needed a baseline for everyone to compare off of was because one guy will post a sim/wws showing 100 dps improvement either way, and some other guy will post one showing only a 30 dps difference. Since neither one of them posted their exact inputs into the sim or the wws, we have no frigging clue which one is right. See the point now?
Bah is my response to that, if you dont agree that asking X people to run a sim without giving enough details is moronic then you are deluded. You have access to the tool enter the data and run it and then say this is the results from the sim and it shows lalala.
Looking at others who have run it the data seems to come out about onpar with regards to DPS (I ran it and elemental came out a little lower, might be because I chose to specify melee oriented trinkets and im not sure what trinkets the others used if none).
So I came out 5dps short with elemental spec in the sim but it doesnt include Call of Flame which def. puts elemental ontop (should add about 10dps).
Now this is a plain standstill and nuke simulation and elemental comes out slightly ontop, add to this that most bossfights are moveable (even so if adding in trash) where the extra spell/totem dmg is favored elemental is even more stronger (MH trash <3).
But this all comes down to playstyle anyway if one loves to twist one ofc will favor resto so its an individual choice, however none of the results from this thread or the discussion around this merits a clear "do this or your stupid" declaration in the OP with regards to speccing resto.
Bah is my response to that, if you dont agree that asking X people to run a sim without giving enough details is moronic then you are deluded. You have access to the tool enter the data and run it and then say this is the results from the sim and it shows lalala.
I personally will stay with my 3/44/14 spec untill 2.4 is out and fire totem damage is included in personal DPS on meters etc, after that I may go to 17/44 spec due to the fact at my gear level the 3% loss of hit from resto is negible (I have 12.4% hit from gear), theres also rumours that totem twisting will be fixed in 2.4 when the totem identifiers are added which would pretty much kill off any gain from having points in resto considering I sit at 90-95% mana for a whole boss fight when I'm not twisting.
So raid DPS matters nothing to you? Only personal DPS? Wow.
The resto hit talent gives you spell hit as well. I think you spec now looks good as long as you don't have mana issues twisting, but the fire totem is the silliest comment I've heard yet.
Baby, you can hold my balls.
10:10 < buu_> Raut: You are a hero of the internet.
So raid DPS matters nothing to you? Only personal DPS? Wow.
How does going an elemental sub-spec suggest you dont care about Raid-DPS? Losing the totem-range talent often just means you redrop totems, the raid dosnt actually lose any dps. Neither subspec really changes your overall raid dps as long as you still play well and ensure totem coverage.
Mox seem to point to fire damage totems not being calculated into personal DPS as the key motivator for going enh/elem. It sure seems like a personal motivator rather than a collective one.
And the "just drop totems again" argument works great on paper, but the added DPS from elem instead of resto is closely based on casting cycles. Dropping totems all the time will screw this up. A full set is 6 seconds of GCD and no lag.
Baby, you can hold my balls.
10:10 < buu_> Raut: You are a hero of the internet.
Mox seem to point to fire damage totems not being calculated into personal DPS as the key motivator for going enh/elem. It sure seems like a personal motivator rather than a collective one.
And the "just drop totems again" argument works great on paper, but the added DPS from elem instead of resto is closely based on casting cycles. Dropping totems all the time will screw this up. A full set is 6 seconds of GCD and no lag.
First of all: trun on the "merge pet and player" on your dps meter, and your fire totems will be counted.
Second: Elem subspec offers the exact same support as Resto subspec. The totem range is unimportant, since your UR only has a range of 20y, so there is no true enlarging of your buff-zone through the totem-range talent.
Lastly:
Sims are a bad way to compare, because the specs dont scale the same way.
Melee-crit will benefit Resto-offspec more, while AP will benefit Elem-offspec more.
That might also be a reason (other than faults in the sim) why the values differ.
Best would be a math-formula showing what spec does more, and if there is a constellation where this chances.
I simply dont trust my math-abilities enough to do that (don't know how to calculate flurry and SS together).
Second: Elem subspec offers the exact same support as Resto subspec. The totem range is unimportant, since your UR only has a range of 20y, so there is no true enlarging of your buff-zone through the totem-range talent.
You move to the target that is going to be DPSed. Your totems do not. When you drop your totems around the MT just before a trash pack, is there no chance you and your group will move out of range? And is there more room to move within 30 yard range than 20?
Baby, you can hold my balls.
10:10 < buu_> Raut: You are a hero of the internet.
I was under the impression there is currently no way to add Fire Totem damage to your own because the combat log doesn't track the totem's owner. That is, if you've got four shamans in the raid and they all drop Searing, for each of them the log will display "Searing Totem VII hits X for Y fire damage" rather than "[Player's] Searing Totem VII hits X for Y fire damage", and the damage of all four totems will be added together on the damage meters. Searing, Magma, Fire Nova and Fire Elemental totems don't count as the player's "pet", they count as their own entity.
First of all: trun on the "merge pet and player" on your dps meter, and your fire totems will be counted.
Best would be a math-formula showing what spec does more, and if there is a constellation where this chances.
I simply dont trust my math-abilities enough to do that (don't know how to calculate flurry and SS together).
As pointed out by Peer, you are incorrect about merging pets. Fire totems are not counted as belonging to you, there is no way to merge it until 2.4. In fact even if there is only 1 shaman in the raid you still can't merge the fire totems because they don't say "So and So's Pet" in the combat log, and mods simply parse the text lines of the log to determine this stuff.
Regarding the sims/calculations, amazingly enough the people who do have the mathematical know-how to calculate that stuff are the same ones developing the sims. Sounds crazy I know.
You move to the target that is going to be DPSed. Your totems do not. When you drop your totems around the MT just before a trash pack, is there no chance you and your group will move out of range? And is there more room to move within 30 yard range than 20?
I suggested on the WoW Forums (I know, I know. I get bored at work, what can I say? ) that we compile a list of T5/6 bosses where mobility really plays a factor in DPS time. I.e., how many boss fights are there where 10 yards will make the difference between redropping totems and not having to redrop them?
Do you all think this might start to address the intangible question, or am I totally off-base here?
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
Fights I'd say that 10 yards might mean not having to drop totems repeatedly -
T5 - hydross, lurker (sort of, lets you spread out more, might have range to some of the adds), Leo, Vashj, Al'ar, Solarian (dropped in the center can range the adds), Kael for sure.
T6 - Akama (dropped in center podium can range all the adds), Council (not sure here, just got to council last night) and no idea for Illidan, all the Hyjal trash benefits from extra totem range
Totally dependent on your raid's strategy of course, lets not get into particulars of "well we do it this way..." but those fights conceivably with 10 extra yards mean that you don't have to drop totems again due to movement of the boss or adds. Looks like T5 content benefits more from the totem range than anything else. So yah maybe its more of a trash thing.
Conceivably one could create a spec that is 3/45/13 giving up the totem range and no points in healing focus, gaining 3% shock damage. Probably the best of both worlds right there. The only other free point to remove and still keep NG would be 1 point from Improved Weapon Totems for a 4/44/13.
I can only speak for T5 content, but Vashj is the only one where the extra ten yards would really help, in all the other fights the case where you need to re-drop totems would occur regardless of 20yd, or 30yd radius. Hydross/Lurker/Leo/Kael all have fairly stable dps positions that occassionally change significantly. Sola and Al'ar ive found that the central drop position generally covers all dps even with only 20yd range. Still, with emphasis on >might< Id agree in general.
Totally dependent on your raid's strategy of course, lets not get into particulars of "well we do it this way..." but those fights conceivably with 10 extra yards mean that you don't have to drop totems again due to movement of the boss or adds. Looks like T5 content benefits more from the totem range than anything else. So yah maybe its more of a trash thing.
I think that will probably end up being the conclusion from all of this. It's going to depend on your particular raid strategy as to whether the 10 yards makes a difference. While it most definitely allows more wiggle room to have the totem range, some raid strats aren't going to require it, while others are.
In my mind, the biggest thing we can take from this discussion is that the elemental sub-spec shouldn't be looked at as the red-headed stepchild that it has been. Both seem to be equally viable within a 1% DPS difference roughly according to initial sim results, with the big caveat being raid strategies. If yours requires extra movement for the melee DPS, then a 0/45/14+2 will almost definitely provide the greatest overall group DPS due to fewer GCDs lost on totem recasts and greater totem buff uptime due to the increased range. However, the extra movement would have to be over 10 yards. Small shifts shouldn't effect totem uptime if you plant them properly the first time.
For stationary fights though, 15/45/0+1 will shine as totem buff uptime and recast GCD usage will be exactly the same with or without the extra 10 yards.
Thoughts?
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
In my mind, the biggest thing we can take from this discussion is that the elemental sub-spec shouldn't be looked at as the red-headed stepchild that it has been.
Thoughts?
I'd agree with that, with the caveat of course that its really only because of the 2.3 changes to Mental Quickness that pushed Elemental into viability. Without all that spell damage it really wasn't worth it previously, it was a definite poor choice.
If both builds are coming out as damn near equivalent DPS than would the best gain come from a 3/45/13 build?
I generally look at talents as points spent -> value added when i doubt on which of two talents is the better choice.
It's not 100%, but it helps make certain decisions a bit easier to visualize.
For example, the elemental sub-spec, every point is generally going towards a direct increase to your dps. A very marginal increase for the most part, but it's almost all basically +damage on every point spent. The exceptions being a couple fillers going from rank 2 to 3. And even those get significant use compared to the first tier of resto.
The resto spec has 5 points completely wasted from a dps standpoint in the first tier. and about 3 points wasted if you're willing to drink mana pots from the totem talents or don't actively twist full time. However the utility of the totem range and the dps increase of 3% hit are significant talents to unlock.
Essentially, the more focused nature towards dps of elemental compared to the quantity of points needed to reach the dps-helping talents in resto tend to almost balance out. (Quantity versus quality?)
The real question is do you twist and how good are you at shocking every cooldown.
I'd agree with that, with the caveat of course that its really only because of the 2.3 changes to Mental Quickness that pushed Elemental into viability. Without all that spell damage it really wasn't worth it previously, it was a definite poor choice.
If both builds are coming out as damn near equivalent DPS than would the best gain come from a 3/45/13 build?
I agree that elem wasn't an option prior to the MQ change.
If you don't need the totem range, the elem subspec is tops for DPS, though only by fractions of a percent (0.41% by my sim runs). Otherwise, 2/45/14 is tops for totem range builds (compared 2/45/14, 0/45/16, and 5/45/11 for kicks ).
A couple thoughts are still nagging me though.
1) Since totem range seems to be a YMMV question, how is GCD micromanagement with an elem subspec? Are you still able to a) twist, and b) shock every cooldown? Is the increased mana drain on twisting still sustainable?
2) My sim runs had zero trinket procs. Would trinkets like [Dragonspine Trophy] or [Madness of the Betrayer] skew towards NG builds due to the +hit?
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
However the utility of the totem range and the dps increase of 3% hit are significant talents to unlock.
Essentially, the more focused nature towards dps of elemental compared to the quantity of points needed to reach the dps-helping talents in resto tend to almost balance out. (Quantity versus quality?)
Right but as we just pointed out the number of fights beyond T5 that actually benefit from 10yards on totems drastically decreases. I don't think any of us can really argue that Totemic Mastery was not aimed at Elemental and Resto shaman, specs which provide support for groups that are normally spread out or at drastically different ranges from their other group members. Having larger totem radius is always a benefit to those specs.
I'll still champion Nature's Guidance as a very worthwhile 3 talent points and even Totemic Focus (I'd rather use my pot CD on health pots or haste pots than a mana pot). Totemic Master though... its pretty questionable once you're out of SSC/TK.
01/12/08, 10:30 AM
) that we compile a list of T5/6 bosses where mobility really plays a factor in DPS time. I.e., how many boss fights are there where 10 yards will make the difference between redropping totems and not having to redrop them?
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