[Mage] Rolling Ignites: are they back?

manly · 01/08/08, 7:41 PM

As maybe some of you are aware, there has been a few reports here and there about 'rolling ignites' that existed since TBC came out. There is even one small mention on wowwiki about this, basically saying that it seems to occur when you crit every 2 seconds.

Up until now, this is about as much as has ever been said about the inconsistent 'bug' that has been observed a few times.

Well, I made a theory of my own that would explain the 'bug'. And exactly how to reproduce it. Before I get there, let me explain the basics so that I avoid silly questions:

The damage dealt by a spell is calculated upon a spellcast, and not upon a spell landing. This is the very reason that shatter-combos exists.

What if the ignite damage was also calculated upon a spellcast, and not upon the spell landing ?

Think about it for a second. If my theory is true, it would effectively explain why 'rolling ignites' have been observed in the past. Here is how it would go:

-> T+0: Your fireball lands and crits for 1000 dmg.
-> T+2: Ignite deals 200 dmg.
-> T+3.95: You finish casting a new fireball. (1dmg crit + 200 dmg left for ignites)
-> T+4: Ignite deals 200 dmg.
-> T+4.05: Your new fireball lands and crits for 1 dmg.
-> T+6.05: Ignite deals 100 dmg.
-> T+8.05: Ignite deals 100 dmg.
(note: yes I am aware this is more like rolling 'half' an ignite. But still, you get 600dmg from your ignite rather than 400)

In other words, my theory is that you can 'roll' an ignite if you get an ignite tick while your fireball (crit) is traveling. This is not really much different than using the travel time of frostbolt in order to get a shatter combo. Please note that by adjusting your distance from your target, or rather, increasing the travel time of your fireballs, you could achieve/reproduce this with more ease since you would not need as much haste rating.

Keep in mind, nothing has been tested. This is pure theorycraft, so it might be wildly off-base. I created a new thread because it would be fairly hard to follow within the other mage threads.

In order to get 2s fireballs, you need:
-> With Icy Veins: 2 = 3 / (1 + x) / 1.2 => 392 spell haste ratings
-> With Bloodlust: 2 = 3 / (1 + x) / 1.3 => 241 spell haste ratings

Now keep in mind, [Drums of Battle] and [The Skull of Gul'dan] can fix most of your spell haste ratings needed for Icy Veins. There are many gear compositions that can be made in order to achieve those spell haste ratings.

I openly invite any mage to try it out and reproduce this. Let's see if we can abuse Icy Veins.

EDIT: There is a case where I am not too sure what would happen. If you land a crit during your first ignite tick. I assume you would effectively end up with the same result, but proper testing needs to be done.

Grecasi · 01/08/08, 8:28 PM

It's not a problem for ignite to tick for 2k+ if you crit with fire spells a few times in a row fast enough. But if you crit within 100-200ms of eachother it's as the first spells ignite will be counted for (5x combustion and fireball+fireblast is a easy way of repeating this).
Is something like this you're looking for?

23:43'21.061	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 43 Fire damage
373	Grecasi's Fireball crits Mother Shahraz for 6553 Fire damage
23:43'22.404	Grecasi gains Combustion
404	Grecasi gains 128 Mana from Master of Elements
967	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
23:43'23.359	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 43 Fire damage
936	Grecasi's Fireball hits Mother Shahraz for 4443 Fire damage
23:43'24.061	Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 1311 Fire damage
826	Grecasi gains Combustion
920	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
23:43'25.875	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 43 Fire damage
23:43'26.125	Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 1310 Fire damage
328	Grecasi's Fireball crits Mother Shahraz for 6782 Fire damage
953	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
23:43'27.279	Grecasi gains Combustion
281	Grecasi gains 128 Mana from Master of Elements
23:43'28.203	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 43 Fire damage
391	Grecasi's Fireball crits Mother Shahraz for 5418 Fire damage
920	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
23:43'29.264	Grecasi gains 128 Mana from Master of Elements
23:43'30.484	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 34 Fire damage
922	Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 2440 Fire damage
951	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
23:43'32.422	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 34 Fire damage
920	Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 2440 Fire damage
969	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
23:43'34.451	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 34 Fire damage

Whats really interesting is if a crit refreshes the duration of ignite damage cycle or it just adds it to the next tic. From what I have experience it just adds it to the next tic which is rather nice for the flow of the ignite damage (and I wish once and for all they just remove the stupid fireball debuff). I can find more things like this in the logs easily where ignite starts at 800 after a fireball and grows up to 1800-2000 after a few consecutive crits and ticks every 2 seconds still with each individual point, 800, 1125, 1310, 1640 etc unless I am hallucinating.

manly · 01/08/08, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by Grecasi

Grecasi's Fireball crits Mother Shahraz for 6553 Fire damage
Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 1311 Fire damage
Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 1310 Fire damage
Grecasi's Fireball crits Mother Shahraz for 6782 Fire damage
Grecasi's Fireball crits Mother Shahraz for 5418 Fire damage
Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 2440 Fire damage
Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 2440 Fire damage

No that is just a normal ignite adding up together, what I am talking about is specifically getting more than 40% extra damage from your ignites through proper timing of your fireballs (ie: 2 seconds fireballs).

Grecasi · 01/08/08, 8:59 PM

Yeah, my bad really. Though I was looking at something here and it seems rather interesting.

23:39'04.841	Grecasi's Fireball crits Mother Shahraz for 4307 Fire damage
23:39'05.752	Grecasi gains 127 Mana from Master of Elements
799	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
23:39'06.716	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 29 Fire damage
23:39'07.362	Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 861 Fire damage
700	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
872	Grecasi's Fireball crits Mother Shahraz for 4178 Fire damage
23:39'08.955	Grecasi gains 128 Mana from Master of Elements
23:39'09.731	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
955	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 28 Fire damage
23:39'10.612	Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 1267 Fire damage
956	Grecasi's Fireball crits Mother Shahraz for 4087 Fire damage
23:39'11.716	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
763	Grecasi gains 128 Mana from Master of Elements
23:39'12.919	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 29 Fire damage
23:39'13.403	Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 1451 Fire damage
716	Grecasi gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
971	Grecasi's Fireball resisted by Mother Shahraz
23:39'14.909	Grecasi's Fireball dots Mother Shahraz for 29 Fire damage
23:39'15.409	Grecasi's Ignite dots Mother Shahraz for 1450 Fire damage

Counting 3x fireballs for crits, should yield normally 12 second or 6 ignite tics so to speak. Critting 3 times in a row seems to shorten the duration of the debuff from 12 to 10 seconds. Logs I'm showing are a bit off though, since the first ignite starts ticing 2.5 seconds after the first fireball crits (server has been a bit lagged lately with up to 20-30 min queues).
So we condense the same damage in shorter time which is a dps increase, in this case 10 seconds vs 12 it would have done if they would have been left seperate?
Sorry if this if offtopic, won't have IV until tomorrow morning as I play in Europe.

edit: it's actually just 2 crits in a row that will condense it optimally, from 4 tics to 3. 2 crits then a normal hit then 2 crits hit would produce 6 ignite tics where there should have been 8 in 4 seconds faster time.

Searix · 01/08/08, 9:14 PM

In the TC thread i tested this twice and twice i've shown indeed that if you do have 2 second fireballs it does work pre-BC rolling ignites.

Edit (2.3.2 PTR testing):

Xei · 01/08/08, 9:24 PM

2 second fireballs is achievable with just a well timed Berserking along with Icy Veins.

Hate Monkey · 01/08/08, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

2 second fireballs is achievable with just a well timed Berserking along with Icy Veins.

Not every mage is a troll though, and half the time, you end up with a 10-15% Berserking instead of an intended 30% you want.

Finkum · 01/09/08, 1:41 AM

For testing purposes, rather than gathering a non-trivial amount of spell-haste gear/buff items, couldn't you simply follow a fireball with a fireblast (waiting for ~2s to simulate the cast time of a hasted fireball)? Obviously the cooldown on fireblast means you can't just spam it every 2 seconds to get a continuous rolling ignite, but presumably a single roll is all that is required to decide the issue either way.

Gofa · 01/09/08, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by Finkum

For testing purposes, rather than gathering a non-trivial amount of spell-haste gear/buff items, couldn't you simply follow a fireball with a fireblast (waiting for ~2s to simulate the cast time of a hasted fireball)? Obviously the cooldown on fireblast means you can't just spam it every 2 seconds to get a continuous rolling ignite, but presumably a single roll is all that is required to decide the issue either way.

I think the problem with fireblast is that it doesn't have a travel time. But you could test it with a low rank of fireball (= 2sek cast) i think.

manly · 01/09/08, 2:04 AM

Originally Posted by Gofa

I think the problem with fireblast is that it doesn't have a travel time. But you could test it with a low rank of fireball (= 2ek cast) i think.

If my theory is correct, then yes, exactly as you said, the travel time is an absolute necessity.

The good news is that this can easily be tested using a G15 to do 2 scorch spam.

Xei · 01/09/08, 2:09 AM

Originally Posted by Hate Monkey

Not every mage is a troll though, and half the time, you end up with a 10-15% Berserking instead of an intended 30% you want.

Yes and yes, but there are plenty of boss fights where the whole raid takes X damage which brings you substantially down in life.

Bloodlust is 30% haste, IV is 20% and Berserking is 10-30%.

Bloodlusted FB == 3/1.3 = 2.3s

IV FB = 3/1.2 = 2.5s

Berserking FB = 2.73s-2.3s

In order to get 2s fireballs, you need:
-> With Icy Veins: 2 = 3 / (1 + x) / 1.2 => 392 spell haste rating
-> With Bloodlust: 2 = 3 / (1 + x) / 1.3 => 241 spell haste rating

Berserking: I'll have to do some testing to confirm, because I do not really trust WoWhead comments as accurate - but it states that you get the full 30% haste at 40%hps or lower.

So assuming 30% haste @ 40% hps.

Also assuming berskering scales linearlly between 100% and 40%hps (confirm/deny?)

So each %hp below 100 is worth 0.5% haste (30(haste)/60(hps)).

Drums+Skull = 255 haste rating.

STACKING BERSERKING WITH IV

At full hps, 10% haste.
2 = 3 / (1 + x) / 1.2 / 1.1 => 13.64% haste * 15.76 => 215 haste rating

At 40% hps, 30% haste.
3 / 1.2 / 1.3 = 1.92s ... you are there.

With zero passive haste equipped you need to get 13.64% haste from berserking, so 72.72% hp.

STACKING BERSERKING WITH BLOODLUST

At full hps, 10% haste.
2 = 3 / (1 + x) / 1.3 / 1.1 => 4.9% haste * 15.76 => 78 haste rating

At 40% hps, 30% haste.
3 / 1.3 / 1.3 = 1.78s ... you are there.

With zero passive haste equipped you need to get 4.9% haste from berserking, so 90.2% hp.

So at full hps (assuming no passive haste), you could essentially Drums+Skull+IV+Berserking for 10s of rolling ignites on top of the crazy damage you can put out in the 30s of extreme haste.

Then when bloodlust is popped, Drums+Berserking for 10s then skull for another 20s to get 30s of rolling ignites ... in execute range with Flamecap+Combustion.

So what us Trolls want to do when BL is popped in execute range:

1) IV for 20s.

2) Berserk at less then 90% hp for 10s, or Berserk+Drums at full hp.

3) Drums+Skull for the rest of bloodlust.

manly · 01/09/08, 2:15 AM

as per the formulas I provided, all spell haste ratings are additive, but cast time modifiers are multiplicative (ie: bloodlust/icy veins/berserking/focus).

example:
1% passive spell haste rating
30% = bloodlust
20% = icy veins
cast_time = 3 / (1 + 0.01) / 1.3 / 1.2 = 1.90s

In other words, bloodlust + icy veins + no spell haste gear is probably too much haste already.

[DRF]Solmyr · 01/09/08, 2:48 AM

Using Rank3 Fireball that is a 2 second cast time.

1/8 22:30:18.968  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 270 Fire damage.
1/8 22:30:21.004  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 409 Fire damage.
1/8 22:30:21.427  Dr. Boom is afflicted by Ignite.
1/8 22:30:23.023  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 418 Fire damage.
1/8 22:30:23.023  Dr. Boom suffers 82 Fire damage from your Ignite.
1/8 22:30:25.223  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 270 Fire damage.
1/8 22:30:25.429  Dr. Boom suffers 166 Fire damage from your Ignite.
1/8 22:30:27.291  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 276 Fire damage.
1/8 22:30:27.499  Dr. Boom suffers 165 Fire damage from your Ignite.
1/8 22:30:27.791  Ignite fades from Dr. Boom.

Crits for 409 and 418, 2.019 seconds apart
Total damage is 827
Expected total ignite damage is 330.8
Observed tota ignite damage is 413
Extra Observed Damage = 82.2

It appears that the first ignite is giving us our normal damage, but then it get's rolled into the new ignite. Free 20% damage?

Xei · 01/09/08, 3:05 AM

Hmm, this is sounding too good - can anyone find a flaw with my math?

manly · 01/09/08, 3:19 AM

Originally Posted by [DRF]Solmyr

Using Rank3 Fireball that is a 2 second cast time.
[...]
It appears that the first ignite is giving us our normal damage, but then it get's rolled into the new ignite. Free 20% damage?

Clearly, the solution is reach 100% crit rate and spam rank 3 fireballs since post-TBC ignite are uncapped

Originally Posted by Xei

Hmm, this is sounding too good - can anyone find a flaw with my math?

Just to clarify; you do not want your fireballs to cast much faster than 2s -- if my theory holds then you might end up having to wait (ie: no dps), or adjust your travel time by being further to the boss.

[DRF]Solmyr · 01/09/08, 3:28 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Just to clarify; you do not want your fireballs to cast much faster than 2s -- if my theory holds then you might end up having to wait (ie: no dps), or adjust your travel time by being further to the boss.

I put on my regular equipment and was casting at 1.9... I didn't see the same effect.

Xei · 01/09/08, 3:31 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Clearly, the solution is reach 100% crit rate and spam rank 3 fireballs since post-TBC ignite are uncapped

Just to clarify; you do not want your fireballs to cast much faster than 2s -- if my theory holds then you might end up having to wait (ie: no dps), or adjust your travel time by being further to the boss.

What kind of window are we looking at here ... taking the example I suggested for a Troll.

So what us Trolls want to do when BL is popped in execute range:

1) IV for 20s.

2) Berserk at less then 90% hp for 10s, or Berserk+Drums at full hp.

3) Drums+Skull for the rest of bloodlust.

1) is 1.92s Fireballs for 20s.

2) is pretty much exactly 2s fireball (~1.99)

3) is the same (~1.98s)

Assuming no passive haste.

Etherealz · 01/09/08, 3:42 AM

1/9 02:20:31.093  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 93 Fire damage.
1/9 02:20:33.077  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 139 Fire damage.
1/9 02:20:33.858  Dr. Boom is afflicted by Ignite.
1/9 02:20:35.186  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 147 Fire damage.
1/9 02:20:37.171  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 143 Fire damage.
1/9 02:20:37.171  Dr. Boom suffers 57 Fire damage from your Ignite.
1/9 02:20:39.186  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 94 Fire damage.
1/9 02:20:39.499  Dr. Boom suffers 86 Fire damage from your Ignite.
1/9 02:20:41.155  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 94 Fire damage.
1/9 02:20:41.514  Dr. Boom suffers 86 Fire damage from your Ignite

Three crits = 429 crit dmg
Expected ignite = 171.6
Actual ignite 229
229/171.6 ~= 4/3 ~= 1.33

Solmyr got

413/330.8 =~ 1.25 for a 2 crit streak compared with 1.33 for a 3 crit streak on mine and a 62% increase on searix's screenshot of 4 crits.

The question is - Anybody up for killing lotheb with low rank fireballs?

manly · 01/09/08, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by Xei

What kind of window are we looking at here

Again, if my theory holds, then the golden rule is this: 'as long as your ignite ticks while your fireball (that will crit) is in mid-air, you get a rolling ignite'. You can do it with shorter (edit: longer) cast times. However, for that you need to increase the travel time of your fireball, which means standing further from the target. It's doable with sub 2s fireballs, but you might not want to exceed a certain currently unknown threshold.

If anyone knows how to figure out fireball travel speed I'm all ears.

PSGarak · 01/09/08, 3:54 AM

Originally Posted by Xei

Also assuming berskering scales linearlly between 100% and 40%hps (confirm/deny?)

For at least one part of its history, Berserking was a tiered 10/20/30% increase , locked in by your health at the time of activation. I am unsure if this mechanic is still in place but I have not heard of it being changed.

BrTarolg · 01/09/08, 4:14 AM

Hey guys - i think some of you have missed a trick here. Suddenly popped to me after manly told me last night and when i went to bed.

When you chain cast fireball, you can start casting the next one *as soon as the first one has left your hand*
This means that you have extra leeway because it takes extra "cast time" for the fireball to travel there in the first place

If we have a silly, theoretical idea, that you have enough haste to get a 2.95 cast fireball, and it takes *exactly* one second for the fireball to arrive at the mob - every single one of your fireballs will roll
Picture this -

0.00 Fireball is cast
3.00 Fireball leaves hand
3.00 Next fireball is chaincasted
4.00 First fireball lands and crits
6.00 Second fireball is calculated and leaves hand (split second before ignite tick)
6.00 Third fireball is chaincasted
6.00 First ignite tick
7.00 Second fireball crits, refreshes ignite stack without losing anything

etc.etc. Please tell me if i've missed something. Ok - due to it being early in the morning and napkin maths, i've just left this in full "1-2-3" timings. But if it takes exactly 1 second worth of travel time for the fireball to get there, and you have say, a 2.95 second cast, *all* of your fireballs are capable of rolling ignite.

Ofc - we have to work out how long it takes for a fireball to travel to the target, but it certainly gives a lot less haste required than is mentioned above.

Searix · 01/09/08, 4:26 AM

Except that's not how this is working, the bonus ignite damage is only happening if you crit right as the ignite ticks, which is every 2 seconds.

Zeratu · 01/09/08, 4:30 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Again, if my theory holds, then the golden rule is this: 'as long as your ignite ticks while your fireball (that will crit) is in mid-air, you get a rolling ignite'. You can do it with shorter cast times. However, for that you need to increase the travel time of your fireball, which means standing further from the target. It's doable with sub 2s fireballs, but you might not want to exceed a certain currently unknown threshold.

If anyone knows how to figure out fireball travel speed I'm all ears.

I think that FB has the aproximated speed of the epic flying mount. (some time ago i shooted a fireball towards an enemy that was flying and couldnt catch him but couldnt escape from it hehe...)

Hate Monkey · 01/09/08, 4:41 AM

Originally Posted by manly

You can do it with shorter cast times. However, for that you need to increase the travel time of your fireball, which means standing further from the target. It's doable with sub 2s fireballs, but you might not want to exceed a certain currently unknown threshold.

If anyone knows how to figure out fireball travel speed I'm all ears.

The travel time is a fixed speed, so distance between you and the target wont matter, because as you cast faster, your fireballs will still hit in the same interval whether your 1 foot from the target or 41 yards.

Dexestore · 01/09/08, 4:42 AM

All bolts seem to have problems catching up with epix flying mount (280%) + 10% from trinket. Was shot at with a fireball while mounted and tried "outflying" it. The bolt kept up with the mount speed till i stopped and got hit (2minutes after it was shot). Not sure if trinket is needed tho.

Can do some tests using 41 yard range, a target, and someone to try and fly to that target the second the fireball is launched. Would that be a viable way of confirming?