[Mage] Rolling Ignites: are they back? - Page 3

kralizec · 01/09/08, 1:10 PM

It seems like a nice race condition bug, like 2 operations conducted nearly at the same time, accessing a single var or something like that.

Additionally, the op stated that damage is calculated upon spellcast, but is is at the beginning or at the end of a cast ? As far as I feel, it could be at the beginning. This could be verified by doing shatter combos with the water elem.
1) pet-nova then begin to cast : normal situation, shatter applies
2) begin to cast then pet-nova : i feel that shatter does not apply. I need to confirm it this evening.

It would modify your timings and theory quite a bit.

Evice · 01/09/08, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by kralizec

It seems like a nice race condition bug, like 2 operations conducted nearly at the same time, accessing a single var or something like that.

Additionally, the op stated that damage is calculated upon spellcast, but is is at the beginning or at the end of a cast ? As far as I feel, it could be at the beginning. This could be verified by doing shatter combos with the water elem.
1) pet-nova then begin to cast : normal situation, shatter applies
2) begin to cast then pet-nova : i feel that shatter does not apply. I need to confirm it this evening.

It would modify your timings and theory quite a bit.

Before Patch 2.3.2, I have used multiple times "begin to cast then pet-nova" Edit: Shatter applies. I have started using it since it was giving me more control. I am hoping it did not change with new patch, I didn't have chance to test it yet.

Cardynal · 01/09/08, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by kralizec

It seems like a nice race condition bug, like 2 operations conducted nearly at the same time, accessing a single var or something like that.

Additionally, the op stated that damage is calculated upon spellcast, but is is at the beginning or at the end of a cast ? As far as I feel, it could be at the beginning. This could be verified by doing shatter combos with the water elem.
1) pet-nova then begin to cast : normal situation, shatter applies
2) begin to cast then pet-nova : i feel that shatter does not apply. I need to confirm it this evening.

It would modify your timings and theory quite a bit.

Calculations are done at the completion of the spell cast.

manly · 01/09/08, 1:36 PM

Confirming damage is calculated at the end of the spellcast -- if you prefer, when you pay the mana (ignoring clearcasting here obviously). 'As it leaves your hand'.

Castia · 01/09/08, 2:11 PM

The 245 haste rating needed to cast Fireballs <2s w/ Bloodlust is attainable with the following items:
[Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer] - Illidan
[Footpads of Madness] - Jan'alai (Dragonhawk in ZA)
[Waistwrap of Infinity] - Supremus
[Ring of Ancient Knowledge] - BT/MH Trash
[Mana Attuned Band] - Timed Ring from ZA
[Loop of Cursed Bones] - Zul'jin
[Bracers of Nimble Thought] - Crafted BoE [Pattern: Bracers of Nimble Thought]
[Shroud of the Highborne] - Illidan

And non-haste items:
[Robes of the Tempest] - Illidan
[Gloves of the Tempest] - Azgalor
[Cowl of the Tempest] - Archimonde
[Mantle of the Tempest] - Mother Shahraz
[Leggings of Channeled Elements] - Kaz'rogal
[The Skull of Gul'dan] - Illidan
[Carved Witch Doctor's Stick] - 25 Badges
[Hex Shrunken Head] - Hex Lord Malacrass

259 Haste
1212 Spell Damage
194 Crit Rating
118 Hit Rating
374 Int
423 Stam
135 Spirit

All sockets w/ +12 Spell Damage, except for 2 for the meta req.

With Totem of Wrath, that's 3 hit under cap.

I went with Cowl of the Tempest/Leggings of Channeled Elements purely for the look, but yes, Cowl of the Illidari High Lord/Leggings of the Tempest are better by roughly 1% crit if you want to look funny :P

manly · 01/09/08, 2:37 PM

Yes, this is why you take illidan crown over hyjal pants.
edit: or better yet, wand of the forgotten star.

Hate Monkey · 01/09/08, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

I got quite confused with "Travel time is a fixed speed". For a moment I thought you meant projectiles will take a specific length of time to reach a target irrespective of distance.

Just to clarify what I think you actualey mean is: Since distance between caster and target won't change, travel time will remain constant.

Your argument is almost correct because ignite's timer is dependent on when the spell hits the mob and as such distance -is- important.

Take the following assumption: Say the target is 4sec fireball travel-time away. Irrespective of haste, by the time the second ball hits the last ball's ignite will be over already.

Maybe I didn't word it exactly as I was thinking.

Since Fireballs travel the same speed no matter what distance you're from the mob, it does not matter how far away you are from the mob for the rolling ignites to happen.

Taking Fax's theory of Fireballs travel speed of about 40yards/sec, if you're casting at 2second Fireballs, total time for the Fireball from start of cast is 3 seconds to land. But, the next Fireball cast is 1sec through the cast by the time the first Fireball lands, leaving 2s till this one lands, allowing for the rolling ignites to happen. Now if we reverse the distance, and make it 0, you still land fireballs every 2seconds, making it so that your distance from the mob has zero effect on whether the ignite tick will roll, just your cast time.

Using your 4 sec travel time, and the needed 2s cast, this means for the time since first cast, 5 seconds after the first cast, the fireball is 1 sec from the target, and your 2nd cast is now 3 seconds from the target, and you're 1sec into your third cast already.

So again, distance from the mob has ZERO impact on your ability to roll ignites. The problem with distance is when your target is moving, making the travel time vary.

Originally Posted by Castia

I went with Cowl of the Tempest/Leggings of Channeled Elements purely for the look, but yes, Cowl of the Illidari High Lord/Leggings of the Tempest are better by roughly 1% crit if you want to look funny :P

From my looking at the gear, comparing to what I had, it was 7 crit rating more for the loss of 6 damage compared to what I'm using. That combo does provide a little more health though.

BrTarolg · 01/09/08, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hate Monkey

stuff

Woah ok - back to the post i made earlier - if i lay it out like this
Fireballs have a 2.9999 second cast time (about) and have a 1 second travel time

0 - cast fireball
3 - fireball leaves hand - chaincast next fireball
4 - fireball crits, ignite starts
6 - second fireball is released *just* before first ignite tick, and chaincast next fireball
6 - ignite has a "free tick" because it ticks during the travel time (6-7) of the second fireball
7 - second fireball crits, and resets ignite to 0, but calculates ignite damage to be as if there were no ticks (rolling)
9 - third fireball leaves hand
9 - second "ignite" tick happens just after the fireball leaves hand (during travel time - free tick)
10 - third fireball lands, crits, and resets ignite stack, but rolls all three fireballs together.

Am i missing something - with the above example, with about (10?) spellhaste - we have achieved rolling ignites, *purely* due to the travel time. So travel time *must* matter

Ofc - it doesn't help my post earlier in the thread was ignored slightly to understand this - but ill say again - i still beleive you can roll ignites using only passive haste, and not too much of it either.

Hate Monkey · 01/09/08, 6:21 PM

Are you not understanding?

A Rolling ignite will only happen when the Fireball cast time is <=2seconds.

What you are describing is the normal Ignite "balancing". There are posts in this thread that show what you're talking about and show that your situation is only 40% ignite damage, whereas with a 2sec or less Fireball cast, you get a 50% or greater Ignite damage done.

Vhad · 01/09/08, 6:37 PM

Did you mean <=2 seconds? Edit: just remove this post, was too fast

Hate Monkey · 01/09/08, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Vhad

Did you mean <=2 seconds?

Whoops, edited and fixed.

manly · 01/09/08, 7:22 PM

Hmm this is in fact a lot more confusing that it appears to be at first sight.

Imagine you cast fireballs every 1.95s, that there is no lag, the travel time is constant, and so is the distance between you and the boss. Fireball travel time is 300 ms.

0.00  cast 
0.30  crit 1000
1.95  cast
2.25  crit 1000
2.30  (ignite not occuring because of sub-2s refresh)
3.90  cast
4.20  crit 1000
4.25  (ignite not occuring because of sub-2s refresh)
5.85  cast
6.15  crit 1000
6.20  (ignite not occuring because of sub-2s refresh)
8.15  ignite 800
10.15 ignite 800

In other words, in this example, ignites never roll. I admit that I was not expecting to come to that conclusion. However, lets try the other case...

2.05s fireballs, 300ms travel time, 0 lag

0.00  cast 
0.30  crit 1000
2.05  cast <rolling ignite>
2.30     ignite 200             (free damage)
2.35  crit 1000
4.10  cast <rolling ignite>
4.35     ignite 400             (free damage)
4.40  crit 1000
6.15  cast <rolling ignite>
6.40     ignite 600             (free damage)
6.45  crit 1000
8.45  ignite 800
10.45 ignite 800

expected: 1600 ignite
total: 2800 ignite
gain: +1200 ignite

So apparently, although very counter-intuitive, we need higher cast times than 2s, assuming my theory is correct. How much higher is dependant upon travel time.

Dexestore · 01/09/08, 8:35 PM

okay. today during raid when i popped icy veins and got bloodlust i had 1,92 sec cast fireball or around that. i can confirm you dont need exactly 2 second, around 2 is enough. i was rolling ignites up to 4400 a tick in pvp gear (i use pvp gear on trash just to make sure i dont die for some reaso). On bosses i didnt manage to get this cause of lots of movements needed.

icy veins + bloodlust seemed perfect in making ignite rolling doable with max rank fireball.

PSGarak · 01/09/08, 9:08 PM

Hatemonkey: I think the idea being espoused is that the ignite rolling, whatever it is, comes into play when a fireball is cast before an ignite tick but lands after an ignite time. This means the window of opportunity is a property of missle travel time. If your fireballs are 2.5s cast with a 1s travel time, then the ignite will deal damage after passing on its ignite damage but before being overriden. As in, the old ignite "passes on" the damage it hasn't done yet, so the next ignite gets 400 bonus damage spread over its full duration, but that new ignite doesn't override the old one as intended until it lands, by which times the old one has ticked for 200, effectively double-counting any ignite ticks that happen while the missle in in-flight. If you had a 0.25s travel time the ignite would pass on its information but be overriden before ticking, negating any possible rolling.

I don't know if that's actually what's going on but that's what I got from Manly's explanation. If this is right, then the travel time definitely matters.

Latus · 01/09/08, 9:24 PM

so what would one say is the max bonus % this tactic would give you given you could keep it going forever (assume 100% crit rate for long term max calculation ease, yes i know this isnt feasable but im interested in the absolute max bonus % to ignite damage one could get from this tactic)? or would it progressivly get higher and higher with no limit?

manly · 01/09/08, 9:55 PM

Yes, there is no limit because the post TBC ignite have no caps. Well, that is, there is probably a limit of 2^31-1 damage on an ignite.

And yes PSGarak, that is exactly what I propose in my theory. In short, this is what we're looking for (both conditions must be met for a stacking ignite):

fireball_cast_time + lag > 2 seconds
fireball_cast_time + lag - fireball_travel_time < 2 seconds
(and there needs to be test for an additional upper threshold that seems to exists, such as, for example: fireball_cast_time + lag < 2.2 seconds)

EDIT: did some testing. It is definitely reproducible. Here is what I tried:
20-ish yards, 2.03s fireballs = 50%-ish rolling ignite
36 yards, 2.03s fireballs = 25%-ish rolling ignite
36 yards, 1.99s fireballs = 25%-ish rolling ignite

Of course, the same size is fairly small. I also tried at 41 yards but more often than not I would, somehow, cast my 2.03s fireballs too fast -- they would land before the ignite tick. I am not too sure what to make of this. But one thing is sure, so far out of 12 drums/icy veins run I've had only 1 that did not do any rolling ignite, testing at a few different distances and a haste rating between 2.03s and 1.99s.

Hate Monkey · 01/10/08, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by manly

EDIT: did some testing. It is definitely reproducible. Here is what I tried:
20-ish yards, 2.03s fireballs = 50%-ish rolling ignite
36 yards, 2.03s fireballs = 25%-ish rolling ignite
36 yards, 1.99s fireballs = 25%-ish rolling ignite

Of course, the same size is fairly small. I also tried at 41 yards but more often than not I would, somehow, cast my 2.03s fireballs too fast -- they would land before the ignite tick. I am not too sure what to make of this. But one thing is sure, so far out of 12 drums/icy veins run I've had only 1 that did not do any rolling ignite, testing at a few different distances and a haste rating between 2.03s and 1.99s.

So what you're saying is that there is a flaw somewhere in the game environment code that when you stand farther than 30 yards from a mob, it behaves differently than standing at 20ish yards?

It just doesn't make sense that the same cast times produce different data outcome depending upon range since a Fireball travels at the same speed whether your 1 yard or 41 yards from the mob.

manly · 01/10/08, 1:11 AM

No I'm just saying its not very consistent. Most of the time I would get a rolling ignite (during a 20s of Icy Veins), but most of the time I would only get 1 free tick. I seemed to be getting better results at 20-ish range, whereas I was getting 2-3 free ignite ticks. I'm not too sure what to make of it, given those small results. Ideally I need to zero-in better fireball durations and see what happens. More often than not I kept hitting my fireballs 'too soon' -- they would hit before ignite would tick, which is a clear sign that I wasn't using the proper setup. Anyway, the clinging point is that latency is variable, and it seems to be affecting most my results. I need to try with like 2.05-2.07s fireballs and 1.95-1.93s fireballs and see what kind of numbers it gives. I'll probably try this weekend when I get some free time.

Etherealz · 01/10/08, 1:24 AM

Why not just test with a sub 2 second fireball (rank1) - fired at a set interval - say test from 1.93-2.07 I+=0.01s to see what is more consistent for your particular server-client latency variations.

songster · 01/10/08, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by Hate Monkey

So what you're saying is that there is a flaw somewhere in the game environment code that when you stand farther than 30 yards from a mob, it behaves differently than standing at 20ish yards?

It just doesn't make sense that the same cast times produce different data outcome depending upon range since a Fireball travels at the same speed whether your 1 yard or 41 yards from the mob.

Of course it does. The trick to this depends on having your spellcast complete before the ignite tick, but having the spell actually land after the ignite tick.

If you're standing one yard away, that's a very very small time window. The spell cast completes, and then the spell lands almost immediately, because it doesn't have far to travel

If you're standing 41 yards away, it's a much wider time window. The spell cast completes, and then the spell doesn't actually land for a second or so, because it has much further to travel.

Clear now?

jula · 01/10/08, 6:04 AM

Originally Posted by Delita

If you want to test the travel time of a fireball, grab a shaman with the mod 'enhancer'. It has a built in range finder for totems so you know if you're in range or not.

step 1) get the shaman to cast any 2 minute totem.
step 2) get the shaman to get exactly 10/20/30 or 40 yards from his totem.
step 3) duel the shaman
step 4) stand directly on top the shaman and cast the fireball at his totem.

with this you should be able to go into either combat log, (Time fireball is cast - time fireball hits totem) - cast time of the spell. This should yield you a flat rate.

Take your distance from the totem and divide it by the time it took the fireball to hit the totem and voila, you have your velocity. (At least theoretically)

A simplier solution:
First lets note that TIME * SPEED = DISTANCE
If we know two of the three paramaters, we can compute the third.
We want to know SPEED, so we need TIME and DISTANCE.
TIME - get from the combat log, from time u finish casting a fireball until it hits the target.
DISTANCE - stand at any known distance from your target, say max fireball range which is 41 yard talented, or max frostbolt range which is 30 yard untalented.

So, just find a friend, duel him, tell him to not do anything, run to max fireball range, cast fireball on him, save the combat log, do the math...

Zalath · 01/10/08, 9:46 AM

I tried downranking at Dr Boom with no haste gear to see if something interesting would happen, but sadly nothing showed up. I suppose it could be due to hitting too early or at the same time as the ignite tick.

1/10 13:52:32.921  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 517 Fire damage.
1/10 13:52:35.031  Dr. Boom suffers 103 Fire damage from your Ignite.

1/10 13:52:35.031  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 520 Fire damage.

1/10 13:52:37.156  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 541 Fire damage.

1/10 13:52:39.156  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 367 Fire damage.
1/10 13:52:39.359  Dr. Boom suffers 264 Fire damage from your Ignite.
1/10 13:52:41.281  Dr. Boom suffers 264 Fire damage from your Ignite.

1/10 13:52:41.468  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 369 Fire damage.

1/10 13:52:43.468  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 534 Fire damage.
1/10 13:52:45.875  Dr. Boom suffers 107 Fire damage from your Ignite.

1/10 13:52:45.875  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 545 Fire damage.

1/10 13:52:48.000  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 362 Fire damage.
1/10 13:52:48.000  Dr. Boom suffers 163 Fire damage from your Ignite.
1/10 13:52:50.015  Dr. Boom suffers 162 Fire damage from your Ignite.

1/10 13:52:50.015  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 364 Fire damage.

1/10 13:52:52.328  Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 562 Fire damage.

1/10 13:52:54.437  Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 364 Fire damage.
1/10 13:52:54.453  Dr. Boom suffers 113 Fire damage from your Ignite.
1/10 13:52:56.546  Dr. Boom suffers 112 Fire damage from your Ignite.

Ignites are approaching 40% of crit fireball damage. It might be hard to make actual rolling ignites under live conditions then.

Pallandor · 01/10/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Cardynal

I observed this rolling half ignite last night on najentus. I have 91 haste and IV + BL up at the time.

06:03'42.296 Cardynal's Fireball crits High Warlord Naj'entus for 6713 Fire damage
06:03'44.281 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 29 Fire damage (7 resisted)
06:03'44.531 Cardynal's Fireball crits High Warlord Naj'entus for 7050 Fire damage
06:03'46.671 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 38 Fire damage
06:03'46.671 Cardynal's Fireball crits High Warlord Naj'entus for 6802 Fire damage
06:03'48.562 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 19 Fire damage (14 resisted)
06:03'49.140 Cardynal's Fireball crits High Warlord Naj'entus for 6802 Fire damage
06:03'49.140 Cardynal's Ignite dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 5457 Fire damage
06:03'51.093 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 38 Fire damage
06:03'51.843 Cardynal's Ignite dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 4089 Fire damage
06:03'53.593 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 29 Fire damage (7 resisted)
06:03'53.968 Cardynal's Ignite dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 4089 Fire damage
06:03'56.187 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 37 Fire damage

27,367 crit dmg done...meaning there should be 10,947 ignite dmg

13,635 ignite dmg = 50% ignite dmg...so a rolling half ignite as manly says.

I've tried to analyze this to see if I could come up with something but the numbers don't add up. The first ignite tick is 5457 and I don't get the previous crits to be able to give this number.

The first three crits are total of 20565 damage which should give ignite ticks of 4113. Adding 6802 from the forth crit doesn't help, it gives 27367 total damage which would give ignite ticks of 5473.
Also there is no way the previous crits can give the 4089 ticks. All previous reported rolling ignites at least have the numbers matching and if they wouldn't match we would have a much strange bug than what we are seeing now.

My explanation to this would be that there is a crit missing from this log that would look something like

Cardynal's Fireball crits High Warlord Naj'entus for 6720 Fire damage
Cardynal's Ignite dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 1344 Fire damage

06:03'42.296 Cardynal's Fireball crits High Warlord Naj'entus for 6713 Fire damage
06:03'44.281 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 29 Fire damage (7 resisted)
06:03'44.531 Cardynal's Fireball crits High Warlord Naj'entus for 7050 Fire damage
06:03'46.671 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 38 Fire damage
06:03'46.671 Cardynal's Fireball crits High Warlord Naj'entus for 6802 Fire damage
06:03'48.562 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 19 Fire damage (14 resisted)
06:03'49.140 Cardynal's Fireball crits High Warlord Naj'entus for 6802 Fire damage
06:03'49.140 Cardynal's Ignite dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 5457 Fire damage
06:03'51.093 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 38 Fire damage
06:03'51.843 Cardynal's Ignite dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 4089 Fire damage
06:03'53.593 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 29 Fire damage (7 resisted)
06:03'53.968 Cardynal's Ignite dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 4089 Fire damage
06:03'56.187 Cardynal's Fireball dots High Warlord Naj'entus for 37 Fire damage

The first crit only has the 2nd tick left which is 1344 damage. The next three crits add up to 20565 but the ignite ticks are delayed (even though it is strange with the fireballs > 2s). This gives a total ignite tick of 10914 which gives the next tick of 5457.
The last fireball crit refreshes the ignite and adds 6802*0.4=2721 damage to the ignite that is now 8178 and the last two ticks are 8178/2=4089

This is imo a usual ignite stacking but it looks strange because there is an existing ignite missing from the start of the log.

cbags · 01/10/08, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Zalath

Ignites are approaching 40% of crit fireball damage. It might be hard to make actual rolling ignites under live conditions then.

This is TC though...IF under perfect circumstances can this happen...then the next step is to figure out how to make that happen under said real life conditions.

edit: this isn't the TC thread, so the thoguht would be a little different...

IF it happens once...show can you make it happen ALL the time.

BrTarolg · 01/10/08, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hate Monkey

Are you not understanding?

A Rolling ignite will only happen when the Fireball cast time is <=2seconds.

What you are describing is the normal Ignite "balancing". There are posts in this thread that show what you're talking about and show that your situation is only 40% ignite damage, whereas with a 2sec or less Fireball cast, you get a 50% or greater Ignite damage done.

*aggghh.......*

Ok seriously - i've been through this *twice* now. I know exactly what you mean, and if you look very carefully at the written example I have posted, then you will see I am NOT mentioning the situation where if you crit lots of times in a row before ignite tick it stacks up (such an in scorch) - but I am in fact mentioning a *true* rolling ignite, with free ignite ticks every time which add up.

Manly's conditions are that you *cast* a fireball, and this calculates the ignite damage depending on what the current ignite amount is. To get a "free" ignite tick (which does not reduce the amount ignite will tick for) - the ignite must tick *whilst* the fireball is travelling - this is because once the fireball *hits* the mob, it resets ignite back to the damage back to the origional, before there are any ignite ticks.
The situation I have posted above is exactly that.

To explain this better - if you notice carefully in my example, ignite ticks only once every three seconds, as opposed to every 2 which is in everyone elses example.

You don't need a 2 second fireball to get rolling ignites - in fact you must have more than two seconds, which can go anything up to three seconds depending on travel time.