[Paladin] Holy raid itemization for best performance - Page 4

goss · 02/01/08, 1:51 PM

Immediate choice of rank to meet an hp/s need has nothing to do with itemization choices. By most standards (aside from a lack of spinels), my gear is "FoL spammer", but obviously I keep multiple ranks of Holy Light on my bars to meet different situations. My choice of gear or gems doesn't prohibit that, nor does it impede such choices in the long run. Keep in mind you also rarely heal in a vacuum, and leaving a <500 hp deficit on somebody while raid healing is going to get filled in by another paladin or a cheal, probably very quickly. You guys are basically just sniping at each other, and its not really going anywhere.

Merple · 02/01/08, 2:47 PM

So considering that Paladins can now push FoL down to 1.0 second GCD (theoretically), significantly increasing throughput, will this change your numbers?

Quozzy · 02/01/08, 9:48 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

An FoL spammer will typically either HL XI (and overheal) or if there is no danger simpley FoL VII him 3-4 times. A HL downranker on the other hand will go straight to a different rank HL, heal him once and move on.

I'm sorry but thats just wrong.

If I am on MT healing and I think that I have a spare gcd to throw on a raid member, even if he is at low hp I will only throw 1Fol then go back to the MT.

If I have more than a spare gcd, then I will choose the closest rank that I have on my cast bar out of 5/7/9/11. FoL might be more efficient, and I might be not be geared for regen/crit, but I don't have time to waste 3/4gcd's on a raid member....

galzohar · 02/01/08, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by goss

Immediate choice of rank to meet an hp/s need has nothing to do with itemization choices. By most standards (aside from a lack of spinels), my gear is "FoL spammer", but obviously I keep multiple ranks of Holy Light on my bars to meet different situations. My choice of gear or gems doesn't prohibit that, nor does it impede such choices in the long run. Keep in mind you also rarely heal in a vacuum, and leaving a <500 hp deficit on somebody while raid healing is going to get filled in by another paladin or a cheal, probably very quickly. You guys are basically just sniping at each other, and its not really going anywhere.

More or less what I was going to say. If someone needs a 4k heal and I actually can't afford to spend 3 seconds to heal him, proper HL right will be used. The again if he's not at high risk while my next target is (generally going back to the MT) I will FoL him then either FoL or HL the tank. At the end you the idea is "FoL when you can, HL when you can't, since FoL is more efficient". Never let anyone die becuase you want to be efficient, as that's not really effective... And if he doesn't need a full HL and I have the time/mana to HL him, he'll get a downranked HL. Usually though when you can afford a low enough rank of HL (say 7 and under) you can also afford to FoL, although that's not a rule of thumb at all.

The reason I hold the fight length constant is becuase it is constant. You have no direct effect on fight duration. During that duration, the mana total you can use is exactly the same regardless of what you're casting. Then the extra mana you can use from illumination is directly dependant on your crit chance and how mana mana you would have without illumination, and not how fast your spend mana. Just the fact you use more mana to do the same healing doesn't change how much more mana you have to play with.

For a 200 second fight, if you have 10,000 base mana:
75 mana per second spent: 125 mp5 or 55.55% crit required to make it through the fight
100 mana per second spent: 250 mp5 or 83% crit requried to make it through the fight

Increasing the mana/second required to keep the target alive by 33.33% has doubled the mp5 required, while only increasing the crit required by 50%. The value of crit relative to mp5 has increased with the increased mana requirement.

125 mp5 costs the same as 312.5 crit rating which is 14% crit. So to make up for that increased mana requirement it would be much easier to stack 125 mp5 than 27.45% crit, which would cost you almost 2X itemization points. This is undervaluing crit though as you only look at the mana and not the extra healing.

Note that my modified version of the spreadsheet (if you follow the instructions and/or if someone with excel knoledge will be nice enough to integrate everything into it) takes into account the extra efficiency gained from the extra HPS from crit based on your effective crit value that you can set yourself.

Kayella · 02/02/08, 8:58 AM

Sorry to jump in on the discussion with a side issue, but I would be interested in hearing your views on the proposed change to Spell Haste in 2.4 to reduce the GCD down to a minimum 1 second. Will this mean that it is worthwhile stacking some haste, even if you're a fan of FoL spam, or is the stat still too expensive in terms of item points?

Source: https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...24006&sid=1#15

Quozzy · 02/02/08, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by Kayella

Sorry to jump in on the discussion with a side issue, but I would be interested in hearing your views on the proposed change to Spell Haste in 2.4 to reduce the GCD down to a minimum 1 second. Will this mean that it is worthwhile stacking some haste, even if you're a fan of FoL spam, or is the stat still too expensive in terms of item points?

Source: https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...24006&sid=1#15

Try checking the main holy paladin thread

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16934-healadin_thread/p16/

galzohar · 02/02/08, 10:13 AM

Basically haste will still be a matter of "do I really need more efficiency or more HPS?" as the efficiency gain from having higher HPS is still "only a side effect" and haste items will still have a severe efficiency cost. All it means that you'll have a little lower efficiency loss by stacking haste, and your "max burst" will increase a little if you consider it being the precasted FoL+reactive HL. If you're gearing haste becuase the fight is intensive and you HL a lot, the patch changes will make less of a difference.
At the end the benefit is dependant on what you use haste for, and the loss of efficiency (if you actually need it) is not much smaller. Overall a nice boost but not a huge one.

As for calculating the efficiency from haste, it's not hard to figure out the haste->mp5 conversion with the changes, although there's not much point in it becuase if you're gearing haste you probably don't care about efficiency anyway and all that matters to you is burst - this general guidline remains unchanged in 2.4, as even with faster flashes haste is still mostly a HPS increase and the side-effect efficiency is very small that items with haste on them will still be horrible when efficiency matters, and awesome when it doesn't matter.

Kayella · 02/02/08, 11:33 AM

My apologies, I should have checked the main thread

I'd wrongly assumed most discussion had moved over here.

It does seem to bring haste into a better position as a 'main' stat for a balanced set of gear for the average paladin who uses a mixture of FoL and HL. If you're min-maxing gear per encounter than it may favour short burst fights, but it does look to make an interesting way to maximise raw healing output. Some interesting debate about the virtues of haste vs. heal, will definitely be keeping an eye on the maths, thanks.

galzohar · 02/02/08, 11:36 AM

If mana is a limiting factor, the benefits of haste are marginal at best, 2.4 or not (although slightly more with 2.4 changes). If mana is not a limiting factor, haste gives a bit more benefit with the 2.4 changes that it does now.

Heysues · 02/02/08, 8:45 PM

Haste would be usefull only on fights where there isn't really a chance that your going to run out of mana. Haste is a very expensive stat, I would only use it on trash to beat out those danm Chain Heal bots....

Thanks for destroying an interesting discussion though...

vorda · 02/07/08, 9:50 AM

Thanks for destroying an interesting discussion though...

If with interesting dicussion you'r referring to the rather pointless almost-flamewar of Glazohar and flyingtoastr, Goss summed it up pretty nicely here: http://elitistjerks.com/622050-post46.html .

I also gear as 'FoL' spammer, but on most fights I maintain a 60% FoL 40% HL balance over a full Hyjal night and a ~ 55% FoL 45% HL over a full BT night.

I gem for +heal because in my opinion, crit is unreliable HPS and efficiency isnt a problem, since I can assume I always have a spriest (we can swap ourselves in/out the tank group with other palas if needed).

Macharius · 09/15/08, 12:56 PM

Splitting your stats into Burst healing/total healing is a good way of looking at it so thanks for that Galzohar. The third, for anyone, would be stamina. So how good your gear is depends on:
1. Your burst healing capability
2. Your total potential healing over a fight (If you use 100% mana)
3. Your survivability (stamina)

Macharius · 09/15/08, 12:58 PM

I have made a spreadsheet to evaluate #2 and I hope to put it up here soon, so if you're interested look out for it.

levk · 09/15/08, 4:24 PM

Argument over crit vs mp5 is pointless and can go either way depending on playstyle and personal superstitions. Besides, the only guilds who'll continue raiding after the next couple of weeks are ones with a reasonable shot at KJ before expansion. Now if you want to talk about 3.0 mechanics at level 80 I think that would be more meaningful.

I see intellect becoming the dominating stat - with replenishment and divine plea mechanics it provides the best regen per budget point just on those two alone. And then you get the crit and spellpower with it as well. Mp5 falls to the least useful stat that is actually useful, so on a typical "5 stat item" (stam + int + spellpower + crit + haste/mp5) it takes place of haste. I think most people will choose haste here although this is probably based on current throughput requirements at endgame; it's quite possible haste might not be all that optimal until a bit into the expansion cycle.

Based on that, the new JC mana trinket looks very strong to start raiding (again), the only way it could be better if the on use functioned like lifegiving gem (increasing total mana pool for X seconds and restoring that much mana) so that you'd get increased returns on replenishment.