Imabug

Just as a request feature:

Is it possible to include a 'buffed' Innervate regen? I like the Innervate setup, but is it possible to get a second calculation on buffing up fully - That is add on another calculator to add in another set of +Spirit to the numbers? One could potentially swap staves to the [Ethereum Life-Staff] and use their [Earring of Soulful Meditation] and essentially tack on over 400 Spirit to their innervates.

Of course, if you use a weapon like [Light's Justice] or similar that has innate Spirit on it, you'd have to factor that in somehow. Since that would already add in all the +Bonuses from spirit in the calculation (15% Living Spirit or 5% Human racial), it would have to be almost a two-part ordeal.

But honestly, I would like to see something like this added, mostly because I'm curious as to how much an Innervate return would be for myself, but also if a trinket such as the Bangle would be anywhat beneficial to a Paladin or a Shaman (Although I'm almost 100% positive it won't - But I can't say for sure yet.

 

Fulnir

Very nice. Thank you for posting an easy read to the formula.
Pre. 2.4 I had these rules of thumb:

Int: Wasn't worth anything basicly, at least nothing noticible.
Spirit: Approx. 1/4-1/3 mp5.
+Healing: Approx 1/7-1/8 mp5.

This made it easy for me to compare items to each other. I know it isn't very precise, but I thought it was close enough for me.

How would these three look like post 2.4 for a T6 geared priest (6xx spirit, 6xx Int, 2xxx +heal) with approx 70-80% in 5SR? If someone with a littl more insight could post spirit, int and +heal in relation to mp5 I'd be very grateful. I'm not big at the precise math, I just want basic rules which make it easy to compare items at a glance.

Thank you in advance.

EDIT: Found a rule of thumb system in Kinien's MP5 spreadsheet, so just disregard this post.

 

Kinien

I found an error with how Mithos setup the innervate calculations, he was including non-spi mp5 into the calculations. I fixed the error, please redownload...

I have also added what you wanted Imabug.


MP5-modified.xls

 

Imabug

Awesome addition! Also - I'm quite surprised now. Running the numbers on Paladins and Shaman, they actually would get a chunk of mp5 back from Innervates - Especially Shaman who are able to swap out for a Spirit Stick. Surprisingly, I see numbers in the 6-7k range, which is no laughing matter. Of course, it would still be better served on a Priest or Druid, but even so, it's good to see that Innervating a normally stupid class to innervate won't be so bad!

 

Kinien

Those numbers only give you totals if the person is in their OO5 keep in mind.

 

• constantius

Innervate - Spells - World of Warcraft

Think about what you said, and think about how that impacts regeneration while innervated. Hint: "allows full mana regeneration while casting" means something.

If this change goes live, I highly suggest every paladin and shaman find a nice "of Spirit" 2H weapon (axe, mace, etc) and toss a +20 spirit enchant on it, for the off chance you do get an innervate. Not like the priests or druids will need it. Raid-buffed, most shamans/paladins have around 260-300 spirit. Add 70 spirit to that (w/ BoK, easily done from a weapon swap), and you're looking at:

400% of (5*0.0093271*370*sqrt(650)) = 1760 Mp5 => 7038 mana returned, not including Mp5 from gear. That's completely significant (and yes, every serious raiding shaman/paladin will have 650 int raid-buffed, unless they're still in Karazhan or something).

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

• Playered

Paladins / Shamans have more like 200 raid buffed sadly (88-90 unbuffed...) so its not going to be that level of greatness... which would be what a typical Druid would get on live 2.3 (around 4.8k @ 200 Spi, 6k~ with a spirit weapon equiped)

It becomes more plausable for a Pala or Shaman to get one sure, but its still going to yield significantly less than what a SP, Mage(hah!), Priest, Druid would get.

If your Priests, SP, Druids all have no use for it at all (nor Mages...) and your Paladins or Shamans are completly starved for mana then its not going to be the joke it is now but...

 

• constantius

Assume base of 90, add IDS, GotW, and Draenic Elixir, plus BoK. That gives 207 spirit, which with a 70 spirit weapon swap is worth 5.2k mana. And that's the absolute worst-case paladin/shaman situation. If you can find an even higher spirit combo (not that hard if you find a shield and weapon both), you can push it a bit higher. Your point stands.

However, it's going to be the case in 2.4 that you don't want to innervate your priests/druids because it's TOO much mana. With my current gear, in 2.4, with an innervate, trinketed, I will gain over 21,000 mana (and that doesn't include my passive ~ 125 Mp5, which adds another 500).

Twenty-One Thousand Mana.

It's ludicrous. And with the new regen model, I honestly can't think of a situation where Inner Focus + Clearcasting proc won't restore enough mana to make the innervate unneeded (I'll be running something like 1100 Mp5 OO5SR ... so every Clearcasting proc is half a Super Mana pot).

I think creative use of Innervates will be in vogue in 2.4, so thinking of ways to maximize their usefulness may need to come in. Mage innervates might be something interesting, since it's equivalent to an Evocation, without wasting GCDs.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

North101

Innervate is actually 400% + 100% and if you have Intensity/Meditation its another 30% if your in the 5 second rule.

 

Rannasha

That last part isn't true anymore. They fixed that some time ago, but before that you would regen more if you were in the 5SR. Now you just regen 500% of your normal out-of-5SR regen, regardless of whether you're casting or not.

 

Celdhyrean

Moonkin and tree count as caster form.

Dreasmstate is simply adding int/10 to the mp5 (fully talented) and is integrated in the paperdoll's display.
So if you use your current paperdoll value, the calculation for 2.4 (in the newest versions) will integrate the mp5 from dreamstate without having to explicitely add it in the sheet.

 

Kinien

Oh yeah, oops =) Thanks for correcting me on that.

 

Frah

Correct me if I am wrong but does this not now make int a far superior stat that spirit for gear?



This is a contour graph of int against spirit i threw together. If you check out sticking to a set amount of item points for that iLevel thing then you find for 600 points the optimum stats to get the most regen is weighted as 240spirit and 340 int. I have not checked other values because it is too early in the morning but if this continues in this fashion as you increase the ilevel of items you would want to have 1 spirit for every 1.41 int.

 

Muphrid

Er, do you always make graphs that break the right-hand rule?

 

Frah

Was constructed on maple this just happened to be how I rotated it. Never really bothered me personaly as i still found it just as easy to read myself.

 

Batguus

Uh no. First of all, 240+340!=600.
And the ratio of spi:int that gives the highest regen is 2:1 as has been pointed out before in this post.
(0.001+240*0.009327*360^0.5)*5 = 212,4 mp5
(0.001+400*0.009327*200^0.5)*5 = 263.8 mp5


The math is quite simple:
max((0.001+SPI*0.009327*INT^0.5)*5)
with: SPI+INT=C
Which can be translated to:
max((C-INT)*INT^0,5)=max(C*INT^0,5-INT^1,5) =>
(C*INT^0,5-INT^1,5)'=(0,5*C*INT^-0,5)-(1,5*INT^0,5)=0 =>
(0,5*C)/INT^0,5=1,5*INT^0,5 =>
0,5*C = 1,5*INT =>
INT = C/3

And this does not take into account the absolute mana gain from int or any talents that might multiply a spirit or int gain.

 

Frah

Can you explain what is wrong with the graph or what it is of then?
I altered it to be a screenshot from maple.

 

tedv

Any chance you could modify the graph to also include the partial derivative for path of steepest ascent? That line should show the optimal way to split X total spirit + int for any value of X. Just eyeballing it, it looks like a 2:1 spirit to int ratio. (Hold a piece of paper up to the graph at a 45 degree angle, making a line from the top left to bottom right corner. Then keep the slope of the line constant but move the line's offset up and down the graph. The path of steepest ascent will be the set of points this line is tangent to each of the gradient curves on the graph.)

 

Rannasha

You exchanged INT and SPI in your regen-formula.

 

Frah

Crap so i did get the same results just cocked up the names. Knew it was too early in the morning.

 

• Adoriele

True, but take into effect how stat points are allocated. 600 spirit's value in ipoints is the same as 600 Int's value, but is more than the value of any linear mix of the two [I.E, say 600 spirit costs 1000 ipoints. 600 int will as well. But 300 int and 300 spirit will cost 750 ipoints (guess, I'm not familiar with the actual ratio)]. Therefore, given the same iLvl, it's very possible that 240 int + 340 spi = 600 of either. Is 240/340 the optimal point? Not sure, as I don't know exactly how they weight distribution. But chances are it's not x/2x, as that tends to spend a bit more ipoints in spirit that could easily go to int.

 

Bendyr

This is awesome work. My only complaint is that the recommended stat weights on the "Priest Gear" tab seem to conflict with your conclusions from the MP5 tab.

1) First of all, if you have healing at +1, I think that valuing stam, haste, and crit at +1 is kind of ridiculous, and will skew your gear selections toward stamina pieces since it's so much cheaper in itemization cost.

2) If you value Mp5 at 2.8, and your spreadsheet puts int at .2 MP5 raid buffed, then your weight for int has to be at least .56. If you count its contribution to crit and mana pool, I'd put it at .7.

3) Similarly, if you value mp5 at 2.8, and your valuation of spirit is .37, you have to give it a weight of at least about 1.1 just for the mp5 contribution and then another .35 for its contribution to +heal. If you then go and count its contribution to out of combat mp5, I'd put it at around 1.5 or even higher.

 

Nenormalen

I don't think that is possible. If anything, the sum of any mix of the two stats should higher than just allocating the stats in either stat. So 580 as a mix of both int and spi is unlikely to be equal in the budget as 600 of either.

 

Muphrid

Yeah, using the usual item point allocation, 240 int + 340 spirit equates to 440 item points spent.

 

• Adoriele

Yeah, I was being dumb and assumed that the reason he pointed out that 240+340 != 600 was because it was higher, and didn't bother to actually add them. 240 + 340 is definitely not the best way to use 600 'ipoints'. Point still stands about x/2x being the best allocation, though. If no one else tackles it, I'll come up with something tonight.

[edit] Beaten by Muphrid. Since you seem to know the stat allocation formula, any idea how to account for it when determining the break-even point for int and spirit?