Intellect -> Spirit Conversion on the PTR : Theorycrafting HQ - Page 13

Morakk · 03/04/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

Yeah, look, the math doesn't say more than what it says. Optimizing the spirit regen function on the item point allocator, well, just doesn't tell you very much when there are other factors at play. Yes, we can make more complicated models to find better optimizations, but the majority of such work is best done by spreadsheets and tools, not by symbolic math.

God forbid someone figure out or discuss the break even point because they are curious, when a spreadsheet can tell them what gear to get.

I don't think everything that's discussed in these forums has to be immediately applicable to plugging into a spreadsheet and min/maxing.

Muphrid · 03/04/08, 6:27 PM

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it or that it can't be done, only that my hunch is that (a) the result won't be "pretty" and yield much useful information and (b) if the desire is to simply find the numeric result for a given gear setup, a spreadsheet could do this much more easily.

Kinien · 03/04/08, 7:01 PM

Originally Posted by Eldergrubel

A few points about the MP5-modified.xls:

Gem Values

It does not seem accurate to value all gem colors the same (@18 points for example). Instead, the stat point values should be based on what is entered for each gem choice and your stat point values. Red > Blue > Yellow.

Blue: Cell X6, Formula: =H3*W$3+I3*X$3+J3*Z$3+K3*Y$3

Red: Cell Y6, Formula: =H5*W$3+I5*X$3+J5*Z$3+K5*Y$3

Yellow: Cell Z6, Formula: =H4*W$3+I4*X$3+J4*Z$3+K4*Y$3

Meta: Cell Z9, Formula: =H6*W$3+I6*X$3+J6*Z$3+K6*Y$3

Missing Items

I found a number of items missing from the spreadsheet that may be helpful for the community. I added these items to my own version, but I thought it might be helpful if they were added to the "master" version being distributed.

Light-Collar of the Incarnate
Light-Mantle of the Incarnate
Masquerade Gown
Trousers of the Incarnate
Gloves of Saintly Blessings
Vindicator's Mooncloth Cuffs (competative if socketed with red +healing gem)
Anveena's Touch (version 2.4 60 Badges Ring)
Earring of Soulful Meditation (estimate stats: 75 spirit, 66 healing)
Essence of the Martyr (estimate stats: 134 healing)
Fel-Reaver's Piston (estimate stats: 75 healing, 16 Mp5)
Lower City Prayerbook (estimate stats: 70 healing, 12 Mp5)
Ribbon of Sacrifice (estimate stats: 98 healing)
Gavel of Pure Light (Sha'tar Exalted)
Vengeful Gladiator's Baton of Light
Carved Witch Doctor's Stick
Blue Diamond Witchwand

Thanks in advance.

The stat point values are designed just to be rough, the reason why I value gem slots so much personally because you can put whatever you want in them. Feel free to adjust the values on your own =).

As far as the items are concerned, I made the spreadsheet with t5+ in mind because that is where I was progression wise. Feel free to add items as you like. I do think I will add the Anveena's Touch tomorrow though. It is hard to keep up with the updates on MMO Champion. I left blanks so people can add what they want =).

• Adoriele · 03/04/08, 7:31 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

Speaking from an end-game perspective, there will be functionally *zero* cases where I will care to compare the amount of intellect on an item. Zero. Zip. Zilch. I just functionally do not care.

I will (and do, currently) have over 700 intellect raid-buffed on my gear. I will not stack it. I will not care about it. It's there, it's free, it's meaningless. Given that regen is going to scale with the square root of intellect, stacking it makes absolutely no sense as a priest, given that I get nothing from it but that scaling and spell crit. Stacking spirit on the other hand ... gives linearly increasing regen results and gives 35% as +heal.

The constant arguments over what ratio to aim for are, to be frank, silly, when taken in the context of priests and druids. We really should *not* be caring about 'stacking intellect'. It's a dumb idea. Don't even care about your ratio, either. It's not like we have multiple sets of gear sitting around with identical stats except for the amount of intellect/spirit on them. There are a maximum of 2 items per slot in 2.4 that are 'best-in-game'. They basically differ in the amount of spirit they have on them (spirit and haste, to be precise). That's it. You pick the one you want more of, and you get intellect for free.

Yes, you do only have certain gear to work with in the end game. And yeah, you pick between spirit or haste and the int follows. But then you get gems. And you could use a spreadsheet to figure out which gem is best, or you could follow a rule of thumb that if your int is less than half your spirit, you'll get more regen gemming for int than for spirit. Is that the end of the discussion? Not unless regen is your sole goal with your gear. But it's better to know than to not know.

Also, not everyone is as limited in their choice of gear. An SSC/TK guild has high-end Kara gear, Badge gear (+1 in 2.4), and ZA gear to choose from as well, so the choice may not be as cut-and-dry.

Eldergrubel · 03/04/08, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by Kinien

The stat point values are designed just to be rough, the reason why I value gem slots so much personally because you can put whatever you want in them. Feel free to adjust the values on your own =).

I like how you can adjust the values of each stat (mp5, spirit, int, etc.). However, the values of a used gem color should be fixed and based on the stat values entered and which gems you prefer. This is why I suggested using a formula to model gem colors rather than a set amount (18 points). For example, if you are using the suggested Red gem of 22 +Healing, then red gems should be worth 22 and not 18. These adjustments will change the priority of gear progression.

The community is spending all kinds of efforts to maximize the accuracy of spirit to intellect for regen. I think it would also benefit everyone to improve the accuracy of gem values.

I'm just sharing my 2 cents.

~cheers

• Sservis · 03/04/08, 8:48 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

Speaking from an end-game perspective, there will be functionally *zero* cases where I will care to compare the amount of intellect on an item. Zero. Zip. Zilch. I just functionally do not care.

Intellect is only irrelevent to boosting regen with sockets because it's over half your Spirit. Until the formula and the optimal ratios were derived there was no way to know if was relatively high or low. What if you needed 10 Intellect for every Spirit? Would you compare your Intellect then? Just because we're in the "too much Intellect" case generally, doesn't mean that the messenger that tells us we'll be in that case post 2.4 is worth shooting. Theorycrafting is good.

Also, The 2:1 and 3:2 ratios are relevant if you want more mana regeneration.through sockets (2:1) or PTR proselytization for better gear design (3:2). Although as I told a priest of ours when he pondered gearing for more regeneration, "If you're not drinking a super mana potion every cooldown, you don't need more regeneration". After this change it's highly unlikely that any druid or priest will need more regeneration, regardless of the specific Spirit and Intellect, as current gear has plenty of both. Thus whatever Blizzard puts on gear will likely be the final base values for everyone, making the 3:2 ratio relevant if you want to influence those final base values.

Curandera · 03/07/08, 4:30 PM

I'm curious about the impact of this for shaman since our gear is completely devoid of spirit (unless we are using items that are better equipped by priest and druids)? I haven't been on the PTR with my shaman recently, but I also haven't seen reports of re-itemization of mail gear to include spirit.

Drundia · 03/09/08, 4:09 AM

Originally Posted by Lambi

So for the math retards 2int is worth 1spi?

No. (2 * Int = 1 * Spi) is golden ratio at which point you gain equal mana regeneration from equal minimum increases of Intellect or Spirit.
Mathematically speaking we are talking about increase of (eps -> 0)

Other than that at given point of gear you should use help of partial derivatives.

Given R = (0.1072 + S * sqrt(I) ) per 107.2 sec

Value of S: dR/dS = sqrt(I)
Value of I: dR/dI = S * 0.5 / sqrt(I)

Multiplying those values by actual stat difference you have between items will give you a rough estimate about which one regenerates you more mana. Note again that this is per 107.2 sec which was used to get rid of 0.009327 coefficient. But still don't ever forget about raw mana bonus from Intellect.

Caanrial · 03/13/08, 5:48 PM

So I started thinking (my 1st mistake lol) why do I have the 6 mana regen enchant on my chest? That's only 72 mana per MINUTE it gives me; having over 9k mana that is such a tiny amount as to go unnoticed in the big scheme of things. Wouldn't the +6 to all stats be much more useful? This is unmodified mana regen so it doesn't matter if I am running away from Leotheras or standing there and ranged-tanking Kiggler -- I get the same paltry 72 mana every minute. My gut feeling is that having +6 to every stat (I'm thinking int & spi here) would ultimately bring more utility to the raid as well as when I run my dailies.....comments?

galzohar · 03/13/08, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

Speaking from an end-game perspective, there will be functionally *zero* cases where I will care to compare the amount of intellect on an item. Zero. Zip. Zilch. I just functionally do not care.

I will (and do, currently) have over 700 intellect raid-buffed on my gear. I will not stack it. I will not care about it. It's there, it's free, it's meaningless. Given that regen is going to scale with the square root of intellect, stacking it makes absolutely no sense as a priest, given that I get nothing from it but that scaling and spell crit. Stacking spirit on the other hand ... gives linearly increasing regen results and gives 35% as +heal.

The constant arguments over what ratio to aim for are, to be frank, silly, when taken in the context of priests and druids. We really should *not* be caring about 'stacking intellect'. It's a dumb idea. Don't even care about your ratio, either. It's not like we have multiple sets of gear sitting around with identical stats except for the amount of intellect/spirit on them. There are a maximum of 2 items per slot in 2.4 that are 'best-in-game'. They basically differ in the amount of spirit they have on them (spirit and haste, to be precise). That's it. You pick the one you want more of, and you get intellect for free.

While you're right stacking those stats may be quite irrelevent due to the importance of HPS and abundance of mana, you can't completely ignore intelect on items. Some items are in fact so close that the intelect difference can make or break the item. Be it due to extra crit for a caster or extra mana for a healer - even if it's a bad way to spend itemization points, it's still itemization points that *are* making the item better than what it was if it had its intelect erased, sometimes enough to make it better than another item.

For example item A has 2 more spell damage, while item B has 10 more intelect - item B wins for mages/warlocks before even thinking about 2.4/mana/etc - the crit gain alone from 10 int is better... Simlar goes for a paladin 10 int is always better than 3 +healing. While those are "unfair" comparisons not all item comparisons in game are "fair". Sometimes blizzard simply gave 1 item more "love" (itemization points or at least better use of them) than the other and the item that "wastes" itemization points on intelect actually comes on top because it's higher item level or the other item wastes itemization points on even less useful stats, even if the item with no intelect actually wins on the "most important" stats, if the difference in "important stats" is small enough in comparison to the intelect difference.

• constantius · 03/13/08, 6:15 PM

I repeat: there are functionally zero cases where this is an issue. There is never more than +/- 8 intellect on gear upgrades as we progress through T6->T6.5, and in all cases, there are increased <other> stats: healing, Mp5, spirit, sockets (counted as an upgrade due to gem choices), or haste/crit.

When regen scales with the *SQUARE ROOT* of intellect, it would have to be a *lot* of intellect on the gear to make a difference. Every 4 points of intellect is equivalent to 2 spirit, which basically makes it a moot point. You will never intentionally stack it. It's just a "well, ok, this ring has 22 intellect on it, the other one has 0, therefore, the int one needs to be theorycrafted a bit more to see if it beats it out".

As an aside, the example I'm thinking of:

[Jade Ring of the Everliving]
[Phoenix-Ring of Rebirth]

Essandir · 03/16/08, 1:27 PM

Greetings, everyone!

This change has made me feel split about the issue of gemming in 2.4. We have 3 choices:

1) Follow the aggresive gemming method where we fill our slots exclusivly with Teardrop (+22 heal) gems regardless of gem slot colour.

2) Use Sparkling Sapphire (+10 Spirit) for blue slots, Teardrop for red slots and Luminous Pyrestone (+11 heal/+5 Int) for yellow slots

3) Use a balanced method and fill appropriatly coloured gems where the socket bonus is high (ex. +9 heal) and only Teardrop where socket bonus is low (ex. +4 heal)

Although I am currently leaning towards number 3, I am still preety split in regards to if its worth using +10 Spirit gems. So I`m wondering what are your thoughts on the matter.

PowerBaton · 03/17/08, 9:27 AM

Im follow of the balanced method.

There is alot event where you're often outside5secrule. There 10 spirit gems are really high mana regen boost (Lets count 8 blue slot, it is 80 Spirit; ~94 on raid. It's quite well regen boost.
There is aswell alot event where you're all the time in 5sec rule, there the 11healing + 2mp5 gems or pure healing gems if you got s-priest / resto shaman / innervate is just better.

Bendyr · 03/17/08, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Essandir

Greetings, everyone!

This change has made me feel split about the issue of gemming in 2.4. We have 3 choices:

1) Follow the aggresive gemming method where we fill our slots exclusivly with Teardrop (+22 heal) gems regardless of gem slot colour.

2) Use Sparkling Sapphire (+10 Spirit) for blue slots, Teardrop for red slots and Luminous Pyrestone (+11 heal/+5 Int) for yellow slots

3) Use a balanced method and fill appropriatly coloured gems where the socket bonus is high (ex. +9 heal) and only Teardrop where socket bonus is low (ex. +4 heal)

Although I am currently leaning towards number 3, I am still preety split in regards to if its worth using +10 Spirit gems. So I`m wondering what are your thoughts on the matter.

I don't see why socket bonuses should be treated differently than any other stat. If the bonus for matching sockets is worth the tradeoff, then take it. Otherwise, socket for whatever you consider to be the best gem.

If you plug your own personal stat preferences into a lootrank search, it will tell you when you should break socket bonuses, etc.

• Sservis · 03/18/08, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Essandir

Greetings, everyone!

This change has made me feel split about the issue of gemming in 2.4. We have 3 choices:

1) Follow the aggresive gemming method where we fill our slots exclusivly with Teardrop (+22 heal) gems regardless of gem slot colour.

2) Use Sparkling Sapphire (+10 Spirit) for blue slots, Teardrop for red slots and Luminous Pyrestone (+11 heal/+5 Int) for yellow slots

3) Use a balanced method and fill appropriatly coloured gems where the socket bonus is high (ex. +9 heal) and only Teardrop where socket bonus is low (ex. +4 heal)

Although I am currently leaning towards number 3, I am still preety split in regards to if its worth using +10 Spirit gems. So I`m wondering what are your thoughts on the matter.

Your mana regeneration is going unequivocally up, which means less need for potions, which also means, less need for +int/+spi gems. If this change was going in, and your base regeneration was going down, there might be an increase in utility from methods 2 and 3. However the base regeneration is going up, biasing socket strategy more towards 1 than it is today.

Do you chain chug mana potions today? There is also a personal decision as to what level of mana potion usage is "all out". Strategies 2 and 3 might be useful to reduce your mana potion usage, but they're likely not going to be needed in 2.4. If you're willing to bear the expense (and it should be less in 2.4, unless the additional regen means raids drop a healer) you can have a higher +heal for more healing throughput, rather than more regen for a lower personal cost to raiding.

Bendyr · 03/18/08, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Sservis

Your mana regeneration is going unequivocally up, which means less need for potions, which also means, less need for +int/+spi gems. If this change was going in, and your base regeneration was going down, there might be an increase in utility from methods 2 and 3. However the base regeneration is going up, biasing socket strategy more towards 1 than it is today.

Do you chain chug mana potions today? There is also a personal decision as to what level of mana potion usage is "all out". Strategies 2 and 3 might be useful to reduce your mana potion usage, but they're likely not going to be needed in 2.4. If you're willing to bear the expense (and it should be less in 2.4, unless the additional regen means raids drop a healer) you can have a higher +heal for more healing throughput, rather than more regen for a lower personal cost to raiding.

Sservis, I think what you're saying here doesn't make that much sense... They're BUFFING int/spirit, so you're going to take less of it?

While I agree that this will allow holy priests to do the encounters they already do with fewer pots, the real goal is going to be progressing to harder content, so I think that priests should stack more int/spirit than before.

Jacinthia · 03/18/08, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bendyr

Sservis, I think what you're saying here doesn't make that much sense... They're BUFFING int/spirit, so you're going to take less of it?

While I agree that this will allow holy priests to do the encounters they already do with fewer pots, the real goal is going to be progressing to harder content, so I think that priests should stack more int/spirit than before.

I believe his point generally is that on the PTR, wearing the same exact gear I wear on live, I gain 40ish mp5 while casting by doing absolutely nothing with my gems/gear. Keep in mind you still have a shadowfiend/innervate to use on yourself if things get dicey. If between potions/innervate/shadowfiend you're ok on mana regen, then there's not a huge neccessity to socket 10spi gems.

The reason #3 doesn't work so well is that all the druid T6 is blue sockets. Doing so gains me 100 spi (45mp5) but I lose 110 healing in the process. Also all blue would destroy a Bracing Earthstorm Diamond. The way I see it (logically) a lot of sunwell gear is red socketed. I would socket everything with 22healing gems and use spirit where the items lack (shoulders,head) etc.. or where the socket bonus is worth the drop.

Capri · 03/19/08, 6:20 AM

Originally Posted by Jacinthia

I believe his point generally is that on the PTR, wearing the same exact gear I wear on live, I gain 40ish mp5 while casting by doing absolutely nothing with my gems/gear. Keep in mind you still have a shadowfiend/innervate to use on yourself if things get dicey. If between potions/innervate/shadowfiend you're ok on mana regen, then there's not a huge neccessity to socket 10spi gems.

I think someone said it before, but if you're ok on mana regen for a given fight, it means you're ok whith your healing throughput. Unless you're ok with your mana regen while spamming gh7 AND this is not enough healing.

Regen and +healing are comparable: more regen allows to spam more or uprank = healing increase. More healing allows to downrank or cast less=mana efficienty increase whith the same healing output.

The only thing healing (or spell haste) can provide that regen can't is more burst healing.

(edit note: this is a priest point of view, may be different for a druid of course)

Edghar · 03/19/08, 1:54 PM

I'm not so sure how priests work with downranking and all, but with druids at least, there is definitely such a thing as too much mana regen for a specific encounter (We don't usually downrank anything). In this case, adding mana regen does absolutely nothing for output.

Arvak- · 03/20/08, 8:35 AM

Since there's little to no quantitative data from Sunwell raiding that specifically favors one type of socketing over the other, I'm likely to take the middle road and do half 10spi/half 22healing. I don't think the practicality of pushing upwards of 150 healing from sockets should be overlooked, even if 10spi will no doubt grant the biggest bang for ilvl.

m1dkn1ght · 03/23/08, 2:42 AM

So for druids in PVP where arena gear has no spirit and druids spend most of the time IN the FSR... is there any reason with the change to spirit to gem/enchant and possibly gear for spirit once 2.4 hits?

Case 1: Assuming intensity (30% mana regen while casting)?

Case 2: Assuming Dreamstate (regenerate mana equal to 10% of your intellect)?

Case 3: Dreamstate and intensity?

I currently have 147 Spirit and 492 Intelligence (w/ MotW)...

With Dreamstate and Intensity on live... I have 173 mp5 while casting and 255 mp5 while not casting (w/ MotW).

If anyone could save me the time and just give me a bottom line... I'd appreciate it A LOT. I also don't care about PVE.

Benita · 03/23/08, 7:46 AM

Case 1: Your very own spirit coefficient with that amount of Int is 1,03, so that would make the 9 heal/4spi pearl a 4,12mp5 gem out of the FSR. If you spend more than 2/3 of the time in the FSR, the 9 heal/2mp5 gem is the better choice. Innervate shifts the balance slightly towards spirit, but with it being unreliable due to dispels in pvp it's hard to calculate. 15 spirit on chest seems hardly worth it compared to 6 stats for pvp but provides slightly higher regen if you want it that badly. 20 spirit compared to 81 healing on weapon also seems like a bad trade unless you only loose to being oom. There are no other gear or enchant choices, unless you want to use pve gear in pvp.

Case 2: Why on earth would you want to switch to spirit gear without Intensity?

Case 3: Dreamstate has no impact on the choice of spirit gear whatsoever, except for the 6stats enchant on chest, which rather gets better than worse.

Bottom line: No. Spirit gets better than mp5 with kings, AI, living spirit, imp DS, innervate, ToL aura and being out of the FSR in dynamic fights or using trinkets to improve the stats effectiveness. If you don't use most of those go for mp5.

Evil · 03/26/08, 6:33 PM

Since you've asked for figures:

I have 89 Static MP5, plus my vitality enchant, which I believe is 4 but am not sure on, and so am not counting in.
I have 3/3 Meditation, plus 3PMC set bonus.
I'm sitting at 456 INT, 356 SPI and 217 casting 447 not MP5.

Nezralix · 03/27/08, 8:04 PM

Doesn't this present an impossible scaling situation for Blizzard? Assuming that Spirit-based caster items will take the form of equal amounts of INT and SPI, and non-Spirit-based caster items will take the form of equal amount of INT and MP5, then you've now got Spirit-based casters getting the bulk of their regeneration from a function that's essentially exponential (REGEN = SPI*sqrt(INT)*C), while non-Spirit casters are stuck with linear scaling.

Never mind that INT and SPI benefit that much more from raid buffs, and both benefit from Blessing of Kings.

This appears to be problematic now, and it's only going to get worse as item levels increase. How can this make sense?

Saraya · 03/28/08, 2:11 AM

Since there's a level multiplier, they can easily maintain the balance when WotLK hits, and I don't forsee any higher level items coming in before that.

Obviously there's some balance issues between spirit and nonspirit casters, but I interpretted this change as a way to stop making chain chugging pots mandatory. It's kind of like the original Alchemy changes that lessened the influence that consumables had on encounters. Before the difference between using consumables and not was huge. This just covers the last consumable making such a big impact. Non spirit users were pretty much left behind, but it doesn't rule out the possibility of say, reducing the cost of mp5(since it was very likely balanced with the original spirit) or adding talents increasing the effectiveness of mp5 in the future.