Sapphidia

I guess the next port of call is to establish the fixed Intellect value at level 70 for which spirit suddenly becomes better than mp5 for inside FSR regen.

I don't have the item budget costs to hand (roughly 3mp5 = 8 spirit in terms of item budget going by blue gems, not sure on the exact decimals), but it means we can plug in identical-costing values for mp5 and spirit and solve the equation for a value of Intellect whereby Spirit gives identical mp5 whilst casting as the same budget in pure mp5, assuming a 30% incombat regen from the druid/priest talent.

Admittedly one never needs to -reach- this value of intellect to make spirit more viable due to the disparity between time spent in and out of FSR, but if someone can fetch the item budget values for those and produce an intellect value to aim for, it would be a handy marker.

 

Mithos

Conclusion: Before - After Effect

I just wrote a spreadsheet to calculate the difference and here is the result.

So for a BT/Hyjal equipped Priest (Me) it would look like:


Int: 550
Spirit: 462
ItemMP5: 121

Rawregen(Spirit=462, Int=550, Level70) = (0.001+462*0.00932715*(550^0.5))*5 = 505,2968411

Liverealm:
RawRegen = 320 (because of spirit) + 121 ItemMP5 = 441 OO5sec
MP5Regen = 30% of 320 (Talent: Meditation) = 96 + 121ItemMP5 = 217 IN5sec

Testrealm:
RawRegen = 505 (spirit) + 121 ItemMP5 = 626 OO5sec
MP5Regen = 30% of 505 (Talent: Meditation) = 151,59 + 121ItemMP5 = 272,59 IN5sec

Its seems to be a buff of +185 MP5 OO5sec and +55 MP5 In5sec

Any doubts or mistakes?
Can anyone confirm this who has his char on the PTR(US).

 

Viv

The current best guess is linear for spirit, so the int break-even point is not a function of spirit.
I.e. it doesn't matter if you have 155 spirit or 1550 - the int break-even point will be the same.

Mearis - apologies for a nitpick, but you have the spirit and int axes swapped 'round in the graph

 

Irise

The table at the top of the page is really partial derivatives of Regen with respect to Spirit and Int.

Each additional point of Spirit will give you 0.0466350(Int)^0.5 mp5.

Each additional point of Int will approximately give you 0.0233175*Spi*(Int)^(-0.5) mp5.

At 500 spirit and int each this means 1 spirit will add 1.04mp5 and 1 int will add 0.52mp5.

 

Viv

Not a problem, given the stellar work of people in this thread.
Assuming just the 30% from talents:

mp5 from spi while inside 5SR = spi * 0.009327 * sqrt(int) * 5 * 0.3

combining all the co-efficients into one gives:

mp5 = spi * sqrt(int) * 0.0139905

as we want to find the case where 1 spi provides 1 mp5, we can replace spi and mp5 with 1:

1 = 1 * sqrt(int) * 0.0139905
1 / 0.0139905 = sqrt(int)
71.47 = sqrt(int)
int needed = 5108

Some way off yet, that's the power of the exponent backwards for you

 

Batguus

Jep, it maybe doesn't really belong in this thread, it is more a way for people who dont want to bother with formulas to see how they should value Spirit and Int with their current gear.

 

rayijin

Well here goes, since I was interested in this break-even point as well.

To compare 8 spirit vs 3 mana/5 gems, I simply copied some values from the table above and figured out the regen with a spirit gem while casting for comparison to an mp/5 gem:

Formula is simple: (spirit from gem) * (amount of regen per point of spirit at that intellect value) * (30% regen inside FSR from talents):


Using 8 spirit gems for comparison to 3 mana/5 gems:

600 int: 8*1.14*0.30 = 2.73 mana/5 while casting
650 int: 8*1.19*0.30 = 2.85 mana/5 while casting
700 int: 8*1.23*0.30 = 2.95 mana/5 while casting


Using 10 spirit gems for comparison to 4 mana/5 gems:

600 int: 10*1.14*0.30 = 3.42 mana/5 while casting
650 int: 10*1.19*0.30 = 3.57 mana/5 while casting
700 int: 10*1.23*0.30 = 3.69 mana/5 while casting


Conclusion:

The point at which 8 spirit gems outpace 3 mana/5 gems for mana regen while casting is slightly over 700 int buffed.

The point at which 10 spirit gems outpace 4 mana/5 gems for mana regen while casting is much higher, as a guess, somewhere around 800-850 int.

 

Pasco

For raid purpose you should take into account the spirit increasing talents and buffs (Blessing of Kings (10%), Human Racial (10%), Spirit of Redemption (5%), Living Spirit (15%)).

Summary:

Priest + 15%
Priest (Human) and Druids +25%


So 8 Spirit equals 9,2 or 10 raid buffed Spirit and 10 Spirit equals 11,5 or 12,5 raid buffed Spirit.

Which increase the effect slightly and should result in the conclusion that 10 Spirit at least equals 4 Mp5 (ignoring the Spirit to +heal conversation of Prayer of Spirit and/or Spiritual Guidance) for high end equipped priests/druids.

Edit: Changed the BoK error.

 

hypetech

Kings is 10% to stats, not 15%

 

SeanDamnit

I'm gonna put some money on this getting nerfed a little if the formulas being thrown around here are true. As a T4/Heroic geared priest, I'm looking at:

Spirit: 384
Intel: 479
Mp5: 117

That's 388/212 regen Live, and 509/254 regen in the PTR assuming I did it correctly. That's a 121/54 difference unbuffed. I haven't been able to copy over to confirm this though. That is a huge buff, especially considering we JUST got a big buff with the Intensity/Meditation change - and I would even argue that priest regen was fine before that buff.

A change like this will probably eliminate the need to chain chug mana pots...maybe.

Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.

"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh

 

Celandro

I made a quick excel sheet to handle this (I can post it somewhere if anyone wants) key formula is:

[top] spirit * coef * 0.3 * incombat + spirit * coef * (1-incombat)

I only ran this for priests for the 8spi, 10spi and 9heal/4spi gems:
With 600 int, 100% inside 5 seconds:
9.2 spi

3.14mp5
11.5spi = 3.93 mp5
4.6 spi = 1.57 mp5

With 650 int, 100% inside 5 seconds:
9.2 spi = 3.28 mp5
11.5spi = 4.11 mp5
4.6 spi = 1.64 mp5

With 600 int, 90% inside 5 seconds:
9.2 spi = 3.88mp5
11.5spi = 4.85 mp5
4.6 spi = 1.94 mp5

With 650 int, 90% inside 5 seconds:
9.2 spi = 4.05 mp5
11.5spi = 5.06 mp5
4.6 spi = 2.10 mp5

With 600 int, 80% inside 5 seconds:
9.2 spi = 4.61mp5
11.5spi = 5.77 mp5
4.6 spi = 2.31 mp5

With 650 int, 80% inside 5 seconds:
9.2 spi = 4.82 mp5
11.5spi = 6.02 mp5
4.6 spi = 2.41 mp5

 

Havenwood

I made a little spreadsheet to calculate PTR MP5 changes for Priests & Druids that looks like:



Download it here, if you are too lazy to do the math but not too lazy to put numbers in a spreadsheet. It should work fine in Open Office or Excel.

 

exarkun

Does this mean that priests and druids will still get more benefit from an innervate than paladins and shamen will?
Or will they all pretty much get equal benefit now?

 

Bendyr

Ooh, I like that Havenwood. I added a few rows to account for raid buffage and Spirit of Redemption (for priests), and I also added columns to test the marginal mp5 contribution of 1 int or 1 spirit (I had to go with increments of 100 because of the rounding thing).



My modified spreadsheet is here: http://coylette.googlepages.com/MP5.xls

Lemme know if I'm way off somewhere.

 

Ackis

Very cool.

Since it's your spreadsheet, how about adding a flag to include divine spirit or not in the calculations?

And now, I need to start thinking about which enchants/gems to get on gear now.

 

jaedan31

Constantius, will you update your top level post to reflect our current understanding of intellect modified spirit regeneration? I think it is useful to keep the top level thread up to date and make this a more permanent place to discuss mana regeneration across all classes (since it now appears to be a uniform system).

While this certainly has the greatest impact on holy priests, restoration druids, and mages (arcane is a particularly interesting case), it may have implications for all mana using classes.

 

Bendyr

K i've updated the spreadsheet and the screenshot to include buffs. Also i fixed a calculation I had before (I think my formula was messed up before in that I wasn't allowing Blessing of Kings and Spirit of Redemption to multiply each other).

Also, I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to round those stats after the buffs, but I don't quite know how that works. I'll have to do more research and fix this up tonight.

 

SeanDamnit

From what I've seen, buffs appear to round DOWN according to the info from the character sheet (whether or not that is a display error can't really be determined). For example, Improved MotW should be 18.9 to all stats, but will add only 18 on the charater sheet instead of 19.

Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.

"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh

 

Batguus

A few more tables for the fans:

The total amount of mana you will receive during an 8-minute fight from 1 Spirit or 1 Intellect depending on your current spirit and int.
Again, Int at the top, Spirit at the left, left value is mana from spirit, right value is mana from intellect,including the 15 static mana from 1 intellect (16,5 actually casue it assumes BoK is on).

With 25% increased spirit, 10% increased intellect and 30% casting regen (druids, human priests).

With 15% increased spirit, 10% increased intellect and 30% casting regen (non-human priests)

With 10% increased spirit, 25% increased intellect and 60% casting regen (arcane mages)

With 20% increased spirit, 25% increased intellect and 60% casting regen (Human arcane mages)

With 10% increased spirit, 30% increased intellect and 60% casting regen (Gnome arcane mages)

The mana gained from 1 Mp5 in such a 8min fight is 96 (I sure hope I didnt get that one wrong).

This of course assumes you are in casting regen 100% of the time, neither does it factor in innervate, but it should give a basic idea of the relative vales of these stats in 2.4.

 

Kavan

For arcane mages it is 60% casting regen and also 15% increased int. I'm guessing 10% on spirit you have is from kings, that would apply to int also.

 

Pintofbrew

I think he's mistaking the 15% int for 10% spi, or assuming human. Bottom line is 60% regen and 15%int or 25%int 10%spi given BoK. Add 5%int for gnomes or 10%spi for humans on top of everything.

 

Batguus

Allright I updated the post, shows my knowledge of arcane mages ><.

In the end the formulas I used were these:
Mana from 1 Spi: 0,046635*SQRT(Int)*8*12*0,6*1,1
Mana from 1 Int: ((SQRT(Int+1,25)-SQRT(Int))*0,046635*Spi)*8*12*0,6+1,25*15

I could very well have made a mistake, it's getting late.

edit: urghhh gnome and human mages, gimme 2min.

 

Sinndir

Forgive me for sounding silly but in your spreadsheet you have that spirit regen is = ((Spirit/4)+13)*2.5*0.3

I understand everything but the *2.5, if that could be clairified that would be super, thanks!

Nevermind, too many head injuries in wrestling. I understand heh.

 

• giansm

Spirit ticks every two seconds, but regen numbers are normally expressed in terms of 5 seconds. 2 * 2.5 = 5.

 

• Playered

Innervate seems to of been changed with this new adaption of Spirit & Intel.

Its gone from [14*Spirit]~ to around [(22 to 25)*Spirit]~ on caster characters with above 300Int/300Spi.
Its gone down for Druids in Feral gear which are below this threshold.

My math skills are rather poor, but its directly linked into the relationship S&I regeneration.
So the yield of Innervate goes up in a larger scale from Spi depending on your amount of S&I.

If anyone is up for working it out properly it would be appreciated.

Needless to say a typically raid buffed T6 Priest/Druid with 6## Int and 5## Spi are going to get a return of 110%+ of their mana pool, look at this picture for a comical value obtainable via trinket/buffs.

*picture rehosted/taken from IRC