Intellect -> Spirit Conversion on the PTR : Theorycrafting HQ - Page 5

Batguus · 02/11/08, 9:13 PM

The mana gained from one Innervate in 2.4 will be:

0,9327*SQRT(Int)*Spi.

So if you have 600 int and 500 spi, innervate will give you 11423 mana Oo.

Lord BEEF · 02/11/08, 9:51 PM

Yeah that's pretty insane.

For priests with the earring trinket I'm sure they could get to about 15,000 mana from an innervate. I'm not going to bother doing the exact math because that's probably around the mana needed to be spamming prayer of healing and still come out at near 100% mana

Playered · 02/11/08, 9:58 PM

The one on the picture with Earing/Bangle gets 29k mana, I doubt any amount of spam could make that Priest go under 100% mana by the time Innervate finishes.

Pintofbrew · 02/11/08, 10:19 PM

We're discussing just that in the mage thread, with the only difference that assuming arcane heavy-int spec we're looking at perhaps 14k+manapool to start with and at 420mana/sec consumption at full debuff we're also likely to be able to dump it for tangible benefit.

How likely do you healy types see it that you can forsake Innervate in 2.4 given that your regen will increase of it's own accord? I understand trees don't have a mana issue as is, so no change for them. Priests will gain plenty from the change but will it be enough to spare them from the need to Innervate?

Douglas · 02/11/08, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by SeanDamnit

A change like this will probably eliminate the need to chain chug mana pots...maybe.

It's not impossible that that's the goal. They introduced a bow that doesn't actually use any ammo at all. Maybe they're thinking about how to reduce consumable costs across the board?

Starfire · 02/11/08, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

We're discussing just that in the mage thread, with the only difference that assuming arcane heavy-int spec we're looking at perhaps 14k+manapool to start with and at 420mana/sec consumption at full debuff we're also likely to be able to dump it for tangible benefit.

How likely do you healy types see it that you can forsake Innervate in 2.4 given that your regen will increase of it's own accord? I understand trees don't have a mana issue as is, so no change for them. Priests will gain plenty from the change but will it be enough to spare them from the need to Innervate?

Have to look at it on a per-a-fight basis. Keep in mind, we might be getting more mana, but we're getting laced with haste too. Haste, unlike +heal, makes us consume mana faster as well.

Still, on most fights, a priest should not need an innervate.

Alvira · 02/11/08, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas

It's not impossible that that's the goal. They introduced a bow that doesn't actually use any ammo at all. Maybe they're thinking about how to reduce consumable costs across the board?

Maybe for other classes or specs. Arcane mages will always want for more mana. Unless its such a short fight. Otherwise, every other average length boss fight will see us chugging pots.

We haven't reached our limit in terms of how much mana we would like to burn over say a 4 or 5 minute fight. Until the day it is possible for me to spam arcane blast 100% of the fight with arcane power thrown in at the start and once the cooldown is up, then, we have not reached our limit yet and will always want for more mana. So, pots it will continue to be for us!

Pyros · 02/11/08, 11:10 PM

In current T6 content, at intended level of gear(we just killed illidan today, and had 2 new bosses 2resets ago so still gearing up), the only people I ever have to innervate, besides combat rezed people, are our shadow priests so they can go into a more aggressive cycle. Usually if I innervate the spriest in my group, I gain around 4k mana over the duration of the innervate ON TOP of what I'm spending, so like drinking 2super mana back to back pretty much. But spriests could do without the innervates, and we often run with 2 resto and 1 or 2 ferals, so once you innervate the 2 spriests once, that leaves 2 nice innervates for arcane mages or what not.

I believe arcane mages generate less threat, so your theorical dps cap is higher than fire? If it's the case and you could actually outdps everyone, I could see ferals at least making room for mages innervates. Then again, if we were to run with arcane mages, they'd probably get a spriest, and then it's probably give better results chain innervating the spriest in their group so he uses the most aggressive cycle for mana regen and help all the arcane mages.

Havenwood · 02/11/08, 11:15 PM

MP5 Spreadsheet for Druids, Priests, and Mages:

This is an adaptation of the spreadsheet I had been working on merged with Bendyr's buffs.

Download here.

even_tide · 02/12/08, 12:05 AM

The regen formula is still linear with respect to spirit assuming constant intelect.

A farily sloppy test, taken by varying intelect (aka stripping naked) while taking care to keep my character's spirit constant. Spirit-less gear is pretty easy to come by via pvp. Intellect-less gear is a lot harder. If someone could transfer a toon with a bunch of "of the hierophant," "of the wolf," and "of spirit" greens and try out the same method.

It looks like the simplest way is to just find the gradient vector of the new regen function via testing, and integrate the partial derrivatives you find. It is at times like this when I wish I didn't sell back my Calc 3 book for booze money in college.

Whitetooth · 02/12/08, 1:38 AM

Originally Posted by Batguus

Whitetooth, might I ask how you came up with the BASE_REGEN[LEVEL] numbers? The formula seems (near) perfect for lvl70 at least, but just curious what kind of formula you found for level -> base regen.

My constant table is parsed out directly from the game, thats why you can trust that its 100% correct

Mezzaluna · 02/12/08, 2:12 AM

As a T4 priest moving into T5 content, I agree that the regen buff from this change is ginormous. With the attunement requirements for BT and Hyjal being lifted in 2.4, I'm betting Blizzard is trying to open up the last two tiers of content to as many players as possible before the expansion hits. Giving everyone more regen reduces the burden of having top-notch players who can manage their mana well in those instances--thereby making them more accessible to loads of guilds.

Interestingly Blessing of Kings, with its 10% Int and Spirit, regens about as much or more than Blessing of Wisdom does with this change (at least for me and likely most T4+ priests).

Whitetooth · 02/12/08, 2:29 AM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

Results

Posted my results without detailing how(I'm Taiwanese so I'm not that good at making long english posts), but looking at some of the replys I guess some of you are interested in how, so here's how(its not much different than deriving the rating formula for RatingBuster, which was a bit harder than this).

1. After seeing the change in the patch notes, I knew I had to get the formula for RatingBuster to work in 2.4, so I downloaded/installed the test patch. Used WinMPQ to peek inside and see if I can find anything useful.

2. And there I found that the mana regen file that used to contain the coefficients of the spirit regen formula for different classes, was changed so that its now the same for all classes. But something else has changed too, the coefficients used to be the same for all levels, it is now different for each level. (for this step I used a program coded by myself for parsing)

3. No where in the files could I find anything about INT, that means there's work to be done on the test server. I logged on test server(sadly my copies are still pending...), made a couple dozen level 1s of different class race combinations. For each I recorded: INT, SPI, GetUnitManaRegenRateFromSpirit("player")

4. Raw data from the test server:
INT SPI REGEN_PER_SEC
21 22 3.526054932
19 20 3.049178196
23 24 4.025470329
20 21 3.28473313
22 23 3.773009134
22 22 3.609008623
27 22 3.998036219
19 25 3.811222864
19 20 3.049178196
26 22 3.923318935
24 20 3.42685659
18 25 3.709598137

5. Observe the data. I see from data with the same INT, that REGEN_PER_SEC is linear with SPI.

6. The first thing you do after you see that some thing is linear is to figure out if there are any constants. By using those with the same INT but with different SPI, for example:

19 25 3.811222864
19 20 3.049178196

Calculate the constant = 3.811222864 - (3.811222864 - 3.049178196) / 5 * 25 = 0.001

7. Pre-process the data to remove SPI and the constant from the function for curve fitting.
(1) X = REGEN_PER_SEC - 0.004
(2) regen/spi = X/SPI

INT regen/spi
18 0.148343925
19 0.152408934
20 0.156368244
21 0.16022977
22 0.164000397
23 0.167686264
24 0.17129283
26 0.178287224
27 0.181683464

8. Curve fitting, know what your looking for helps. According to past experience, blizzard formulas are relatively simple, the result should not be too complecated, it should be "smooth" in curve fitting terms.
My curve fitting routine tries to fit the data with some 10,000+ functions, and browsing through the results I see something really familiar.
I saw a function a*x^0.5 with coefficient of a=0.0349649899816082
The coefficients for level 1 mana regen just happens to be 0.0349650010466576
So this is it.

9. The result: ManaRegen(SPI, INT, LEVEL) = (0.001+SPI*BASE_REGEN[LEVEL]*(INT^0.5))*5

10. Checking the formula with my data and it fits perfectly, 100% accurate.

11. Posts my results here

Kaboomafoo · 02/12/08, 2:58 AM

Do mages next, do mages next!

/edit: But seriously, I want to know if the change will actually justify Blizzard putting spirit on our gear. Since at this point in time we generate no benefit at all from it. Hell, I have ~150 mp/5 while not casting and only 46ish with mage armor while casting. If it's a large change for mana regen in mages, though..

Saphya · 02/12/08, 11:25 AM

Stomper Kreeg, the drunk Ogre in Dire Maul North sells [Kreeg's Stout Beatdown]. They stack in the size of 10 and you can buy as much of them as you can carry after finishing a tribute run.
The effect also stacks with pretty much everything, if i recall correctly.

Since spirit is buffed in 2.4 this might be worth using again.

andastra · 02/12/08, 11:43 AM

Considering that Blizzard instituted the 5-second rule because of healers, do you guys think this has any chance of going live based on what it is currently? Not an expert but it seems too powerful for healers and makes mp5 obsolete for most.

Pintofbrew · 02/12/08, 11:54 AM

Andastra I don't understand what you're saying. Firstly you claim the 5SR was made "because of healers". There is no evidence to back this. Secondly, do we think what has "any chance of going live"? Thirdly, there's a clear distinction between spi/int and mp5 in that (1) for under 800int (if memory serves) mp5 will give more regen than spi I5SR. (2) not all heal classes chose to benefit from healing via spirit, eg Dreamstate Druids and Resto Shamans as well as Holy Palas all seem decidedly irrelevant to it. (3) Priests and Trees have alterior gains from spirit which they do not have from mp5.

Ackis · 02/12/08, 12:59 PM

With this spirit change, what type of mana regen would an Imp Spirit buff give to pallys/shaman/locks/mages?

@Pintofbrew: I think the int cap for where spirit is better is around 600ish, not 800. Easy to get buffed.

Playered · 02/12/08, 1:12 PM

Spirit will continue to give Paladins and Shamans 0 MP5 in combat, however it should give them around 60~MP5 out of combat (OO5SR).

Smizzle · 02/12/08, 1:38 PM

Hi EJ,

If it is true that the formula for mana return at level 70 is,

(0.001 + 0.009327 * S * sqrt(I) ) * 5 = mp5

where S is your spirit and I is your intellect, then it can be shown that the maximum return happens when your spirit is equal to twice your intellect. This is subject to the constraint that spirit + intellect = a constant. The constraint comes from the fact that, afaik, intellect and spirit are budgeted equally. So, if you are regemming to maximize mana return and are gemming a total 100 points, you would distribute it such that your total Spirit is equal to twice your total Intellect. This says nothing about other bonuses that are a factor, only mana return that comes from Spirit and Intellect.

Here's a plot of the mana return you'd recieve from a given % Spirit ( this means your Intellect is constrained to % Int = 1 - % Spirit ).

You can see that the return reaches a maximum when 2/3 of the total budget is Spirit. Hopefully this will facilitate the decisions you face when regemming or choosing gear.

This result is also independent of your level.

Viv · 02/12/08, 2:20 PM

Smizzle, could you elaborate on the function that you're plotting please?

With a point of intellect having severe diminishing returns due to sqrt, and a point of spirit having constant returns, the "golden ratio" is rather unlikely to be independent of the absolute value of intellect...

Bendyr · 02/12/08, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Havenwood

Yet another Spirit/Intellect/MP5 spreadsheet for Druids and Priests:

This is an adaptation of the spreadsheet I had been working on merged with Bendyr's buffs.

Download here.

Can anyone confirm whether I am properly rounding down the MP5?

Havenwood-

This looks good to me. However, can you change the modifier on MOTW to 18.9 instead (for improved MOTW), or give people the option of selecting MOTW vs. Improved MOTW?

Smizzle · 02/12/08, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Viv

Smizzle, could you elaborate on the function that you're plotting please?

With a point of intellect having severe diminishing returns due to sqrt, and a point of spirit having constant returns, the "golden ratio" is rather unlikely to be independent of the absolute value of intellect...

It's a plot of

%Spirit * sqrt ( 1- %Spirit ) = mana return

or if you prefer you can do,

Spirit * sqrt ( Intellect ) = mana return

constrained such that Spirit + Intellect = a constant ( your point budget ) -> constant - Spirit = Intellect

The first equation is the same as the second, just normalized by the constant.

Finally, you can consider the full equation,

(0.001 + 0.009327 * S * sqrt(I) ) * 5 = mp5

however, it doesn't change the location of the peak.

Analytically, the maximum is found by optimizing the mp5 equation subject to the budget constraint by using Lagrangian multipliers, fyi.

Also, that is not the golden ratio. :P

Whitetooth · 02/12/08, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Smizzle

constrained such that Spirit + Intellect = a constant ( your point budget ) -> constant - Spirit = Intellect

Although 1 Spirit = 1 Intellect in Item Value, 2 Spirit doesn't not equal 1 Spirit + 1 Intellect (which equals 1.59 Spirit not 2).
It should be: (SPI^1.5+INT^1.5)^(2/3) = CONST
Formulas:Item values - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Vontre · 02/12/08, 3:18 PM

[e]: how the fuck did this end up in the wrong thread? Argh.