Intellect -> Spirit Conversion on the PTR : Theorycrafting HQ - Page 6

Muphrid · 02/12/08, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

Although 1 Spirit = 1 Intellect in Item Value, 2 Spirit doesn't not equal 1 Spirit + 1 Intellect (which equals 1.59 Spirit not 2).
It should be: (SPI^1.5+INT^1.5)^(2/3) = CONST
Formulas:Item values - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

ItemRandomSuffix - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft suggests that the exponent is ln(2)/ln(1.5), rather than just 1.5.

Smizzle · 02/12/08, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

Although 1 Spirit = 1 Intellect in Item Value, 2 Spirit doesn't not equal 1 Spirit + 1 Intellect (which equals 1.59 Spirit not 2).
It should be: (SPI^1.5+INT^1.5)^(2/3) = CONST
Formulas:Item values - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

I see. That means the optimized ratio reported earlier will only be valid for gemming, and not for gear choices. Blizzard punishes large, single stats with your formula ( or with something close ) on item budgets. So, given a gear set, optimizing mana return means gemming it such that you will have a total Intellect equal to half your total Spirit ( as close as possible ).

Ackis · 02/12/08, 6:40 PM

I just want to make sure my numbers are correct:

Base of 550 int and 345 spirit

Right now, raid buffed (assuming imp MOTW and imp BOW) I'm at:

2047 Healing
294 while casting
491 while not casting

After 2.4 it'll bump me up to:

2047 Healing
354 while casting
692 while not casting

Add in an elixir of draenic wisdom and elixir of healing power and I'm at:

2105 Healing
370 while casting
745 while not casting

WOW is all I can say.

Oh yah, toss an imp spirit on top of that and I get bumped to:

2167 Healing
390 while casting
812 while not casting

As for chest enchants, it looks like:

+15 spirit > 6 mp5 > +6 stats from a +heal and regen perspective

15 spirit enchant

15*1.10*1.05=17.325

(550 + 40 + 14) * 1.10 = 664.4

600 int: 17.325*1.14*0.30 = 5.93
650 int: 17.325*1.19*0.30 = 6.19
664 int: 17.325*1.20*0.30 = 6.25
700 int: 17.325*1.23*0.30 = 6.39

6 all stats

6 spirit = 6 * 1.10 * 1.05 = 6.93

(550 + 6 + 40 + 14) * 1.10 = 671

600 int: 6.93*1.14*0.30 = 2.37
650 int: 6.93*1.19*0.30 = 2.47
671 int: 6.93*1.21*0.30 = 2.50
700 int: 6.93*1.23*0.30 = 2.56

Kinien · 02/12/08, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by Havenwood

Yet another Spirit/Intellect/MP5 spreadsheet for Druids and Priests:

This is an adaptation of the spreadsheet I had been working on merged with Bendyr's buffs.

Download here.

Can anyone confirm whether I am properly rounding down the MP5?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found some issues with your formula's so I rewrote some of the formula's as well as I added some more controls for buffs, more druid support etc. I put an adjustable percentage for talents...as well as Primal Mooncloth set bonus affects the mana regen while casting.

Download Revision here.

Havenwood · 02/12/08, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bendyr

Havenwood-

This looks good to me. However, can you change the modifier on MOTW to 18.9 instead (for improved MOTW), or give people the option of selecting MOTW vs. Improved MOTW?

Done. You can now choose between MOTW and Imp MOTW. Also added support for Mages, and relevant Mage/Druid/Priest talents. Added total mana gained from an OO5 innervate. Fixed Human class buff, and added Gnome class buff.

MP5 Spreadsheet for Druids, Priests, and Mages:

Download here.

Kevlar · 02/12/08, 8:49 PM

Hello, I'm the author of HealCrafter. I can't seem to get a toon transferred over to the PTR so I was hoping you guys could help validate the 2.4 regen changes I made.

A WoW Priest Application - Home

Healcrafter uses the armory and allows you to download your character and equip any gear that is on the armory on to your character to see how much it improves your stats. It does MUCH MUCH more like effective MP5, etc.... Anyhow, I added check boxes to allow you to change change mana regen to the new equation you guys came up with.

This is the magic here...

            if (m_PostPatch)
                m_MP5SpiNotCasting = (0.001 + m_Spirit * 0.009327 * Math.Sqrt(m_Intellect)) * 5D;
            else
                m_MP5SpiNotCasting = (m_Spirit / 4 + 12.5) * 5 / 2;

It would be awesome if some of you could try it out and give me some feedback on v2.4 accuracy, etc...
Keep in mind that it does not use buffs, so the numbers wont match armory if you logged off with buffs.
A WoW Priest Application - Home

Here is an example where two different characters are compared using the new numbers (you can just as easily compare the same character with/without the patch). Using the checkboxes, you can look at the old numbers pretty easily.
Before:

After:

ssjsigma · 02/12/08, 10:00 PM

The App is pretty cool. I didn't get to play with it too much yet but you need to Dazzling Seaspray Emerald to the gems.xml

For anyone that doesn't want to wait just add

<gem id="32225">
<Name>Dazzling Seaspray Emerald</Name>
<Color1>yellow</Color1>
<Color2>blue</Color2>
<MP5>2</MP5>
<Intellect>5</Intellect>
</gem>

to the xml before </gems> at the bottom of the file.

Kevlar · 02/12/08, 11:26 PM

Thanks Ssjsigma! I added that to the gems.xml file and posted the new version 1.1.0.1.

I did a little experiment....

Royal Nightseye vs Purified Shadow Pearl

I purposely broke my Primal Mooncloth set bonus by using this belt. One belt has a Royal Nightseye in both slots and the other belt has Royal Nightseye in one slot and a Purified Shadow Pearl in the other slot. They both match the set bonus, so this is a direct comparison of 2 MP5 vs 4 spirit assuming you have around 513 intellect. The blue, "New Character" is the one with the Purified Shadow Pearl.

Looks like the shadow pearls may be going up in price soon...

Alvira · 02/12/08, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Havenwood

Done. You can now choose between MOTW and Imp MOTW. Also added support for Mages, and relevant Mage/Druid/Priest talents. Added total mana gained from an OO5 innervate. Fixed Human class buff, and added Gnome class buff.

MP5 Spreadsheet for Druids, Priests, and Mages:

Download here.

Great job! I have gained 80 MPS raid buffed based on my current specs! Woot!

ssjsigma · 02/13/08, 12:40 AM

Curently theres no spirit/healing epic gem that can be cut from Gems for those of us raiding hyjal/BT. Your only choices are Imperial Tanzanite - Items - World of Warcraft which is a heroic bot drop or shadow pearl if you want an all in one gem. I think Sparkling Empyrean Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft and Sparkling Empyrean Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft will be the way to go after 2.4. making spinels even more sought after. I really hope bliz adds a healing/spirit gem pattern so I don't have to regem t6 once the patch goes live.

Havenwood · 02/13/08, 1:40 AM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

How I obtained the formula and data

Well, your methods certainly produced a very accurate formula! I look forward to the 2.4 release of RatingBuster.

Kinien · 02/13/08, 2:16 AM

Kevlar's application...Dont want to risk running it on my home computer. Exe files? eep! Looks sweet though.

Whitetooth · 02/13/08, 3:02 AM

Originally Posted by Havenwood

Well, your methods certainly produced a very accurate formula! I look forward to the 2.4 release of RatingBuster.

RatingBuster is all updated with the 2.4 spirit regen change and ready for beta testing on test servers(lastest beta here)
It has wow version detection so that it uses 2.3.3 code in 2.3.3 and 2.4.0 code in 2.4.0 and up.
This beta also has a new feature that auto fills empty sockets with gems of your choice(more info here)

Nozuka · 02/13/08, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

RatingBuster is all updated with the 2.4 spirit regen change and ready for beta testing on test servers(lastest beta here)
It has wow version detection so that it uses 2.3.3 code in 2.3.3 and 2.4.0 code in 2.4.0 and up.
This beta also has a new feature that auto fills empty sockets with gems of your choice(more info here)

i love you. it was always annoying to compare items with slots.

Chtoll · 02/13/08, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by Kevlar

Healcrafter uses the armory and allows you to download your character and equip any gear that is on the armory on to your character to see how much it improves your stats.

Kevlar, your application looks very interesting, but it seems it only works for the US-armory and not for European realms? Any possibility of adding this, or am I simply overlooking something?

thedopefishlives · 02/13/08, 9:29 AM

Originally Posted by Smizzle

I see. That means the optimized ratio reported earlier will only be valid for gemming, and not for gear choices. Blizzard punishes large, single stats with your formula ( or with something close ) on item budgets. So, given a gear set, optimizing mana return means gemming it such that you will have a total Intellect equal to half your total Spirit ( as close as possible ).

Forgive the newbie his naivete, but wouldn't changing the formula for the item budget change the location of the peak ratio? Since your analysis was based on the assumption that spi + int = constant, I would hazard a guess that changing that formula would also change the analysis. I did some tentative theorycrafting yesterday and came up with a 3:2 ratio of spirit to intellect for (spi^exp + int^exp)^(1/exp) = constant, where exp is the previously stated value of ln(2)/ln(1.5). It can be shown that for exp = 1, that is, the simplified case of spi + int = constant, the ratio does equate to 2:1. I've uploaded a spreadsheet with my theorycrafting here.

[e]I'm silly and forgot to specify the value of exp that got me the 3:2 ratio.

Kinien · 02/13/08, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Havenwood

Done. You can now choose between MOTW and Imp MOTW. Also added support for Mages, and relevant Mage/Druid/Priest talents. Added total mana gained from an OO5 innervate. Fixed Human class buff, and added Gnome class buff.

MP5 Spreadsheet for Druids, Priests, and Mages:

Download here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Havenwood,
I still see problems with your formulas, especially because you are applying the human bonuses ontop of numbers that have already calculated that into the base spirit. For example, you look at the character sheet, you are going to say you have 540 spi unbuffed, well you would only apply kings to that total, they way you have your formula setup, it is double dipping. Take a look at my corrections as well as additions to your spreadsheet.

Download Revision here.

Ackis · 02/13/08, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by ssjsigma

The App is pretty cool. I didn't get to play with it too much yet but you need to Dazzling Seaspray Emerald to the gems.xml

For anyone that doesn't want to wait just add

<gem id="32225">
<Name>Dazzling Seaspray Emerald</Name>
<Color1>yellow</Color1>
<Color2>blue</Color2>
<MP5>2</MP5>
<Intellect>5</Intellect>
</gem>

to the xml before </gems> at the bottom of the file.

Need to add:
<gem id="32202">
<Name>Lustrous Empyrean Sapphire</Name>
<Color1>blue</Color1>
<Color2>none</Color2>
<MP5>4</MP5>
</gem>

Also.

Kevlar · 02/13/08, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kinien

Kevlar's application...Dont want to risk running it on my home computer. Exe files? eep! Looks sweet though.

Yeah, I had a feeling this would be a problem for a lot of people. I'm not sure how to overcome this fear. Maybe if it gets really popular I can get a reputable site to host it for me.

Originally Posted by Chtoll

Kevlar, your application looks very interesting, but it seems it only works for the US-armory and not for European realms? Any possibility of adding this, or am I simply overlooking something?

Good point. Until now, I've never released HealCrafter outside of my own guild, so this is the first time anyone has tried to use it outside of the US. I'll try to add a checkbox or something for EU Realms. I really appreciate the feedback.

Originally Posted by Ackis

Need to add:
<gem id="32202">
<Name>Lustrous Empyrean Sapphire</Name>
<Color1>blue</Color1>
<Color2>none</Color2>
<MP5>4</MP5>
</gem>

Will do. Thanks again for the feedback.

Smizzle · 02/13/08, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

Forgive the newbie his naivete, but wouldn't changing the formula for the item budget change the location of the peak ratio? Since your analysis was based on the assumption that spi + int = constant, I would hazard a guess that changing that formula would also change the analysis. I did some tentative theorycrafting yesterday and came up with a 3:2 ratio of spirit to intellect for (spi^exp + int^exp)^(1/exp) = constant, where exp is the previously stated value of ln(2)/ln(1.5). It can be shown that for exp = 1, that is, the simplified case of spi + int = constant, the ratio does equate to 2:1. I've uploaded a spreadsheet with my theorycrafting here.

[e]I'm silly and forgot to specify the value of exp that got me the 3:2 ratio.

It turns out, if you optimize the mana return formula,

(0.001 + 0.009327 * S * sqrt(I) ) * 5 = mp5

with the constraint,

(S^x + I^x)^(1/x) = Constant

where S is spirit, I is int, and x is an ( unknown ) exponent,

the maximum return occurs when,

S = 2^(1/x) * I.

For x = ln(2)/ln(1.5), this means your total Int should equal 2/3 your total Spirit.

thedopefishlives · 02/13/08, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Smizzle

It turns out, if you optimize the mana return formula,

(0.001 + 0.009327 * S * sqrt(I) ) * 5 = mp5

with the constraint,

(S^x + I^x)^(1/x) = Constant

where S is spirit, I is int, and x is an ( unknown ) exponent,

the maximum return occurs when,

S = 2^(1/x) * I.

For x = ln(2)/ln(1.5), this means your total Int should equal 2/3 your total Spirit.

So all that remains, then, is to determine what the proper value of x is in the equation, at which point we can provide an "ideal" gearing ratio for int/spirit. I've heard 1.5 and ln(2)/ln(1.5) bandied about; any ideas how one could verify the itemization exponent experimentally?

Havenwood · 02/13/08, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Kinien

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Havenwood,
I still see problems with your formulas, especially because you are applying the human bonuses ontop of numbers that have already calculated that into the base spirit. For example, you look at the character sheet, you are going to say you have 540 spi unbuffed, well you would only apply kings to that total, they way you have your formula setup, it is double dipping. Take a look at my corrections as well as additions to your spreadsheet.

Download Revision here.

Hmm, yeah, since most people are going to be plugging in spirit from the spirit total in character info, your way is better. I was thinking spirit totaled from gear for some reason, which doesn't include the human/gnome bonus yet.

Kinien · 02/13/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Havenwood

Hmm, yeah, since most people are going to be plugging in spirit from the spirit total in character info, your way is better. I was thinking spirit totaled from gear for some reason, which doesn't include the human/gnome bonus yet.

No biggie, just improving on your original. Feel free to use my changes, collaboration is good. Especially considering I pretty much reworked your original idea.

Havenwood · 02/13/08, 4:16 PM

As per request, updated the MP5 spreadsheet to include mage talents and self-buff. Built this one off of Kinien's revision, so formula fixes are in place and Kinien's Non-Spirit MP5 stuff is added. Old stacking buff problem was entirely my doing, as I broke Bendyr's original work on buffs, which didn't have the problem. Oops!

I know that mages tend to have a lot less total spirit, but when mage armor is taken into account this looks like quite a buff to mage mana regen!

Download here.

PiousFlea · 02/13/08, 4:47 PM

Upon hearing about the v2.4 change to mana regen, I was intensely curious to see what would be the best stat to stack and gem for. It accounts for all 4 healing classes and Mages, all talents that affect mana pool and mana regeneration, and almost all possible raid buffs and consumables.

There are three ways to input your character's statistics:

Pre-buff stats: These stats are modified by talents, racial, and buffs to give the paperdoll SPI, INT, and MP5 values.
Post-buff v2.3 stats: Input your SPI, INT, and MP5 directly from v2.3 live or Armory paperdoll screen. Automatically converts to v2.4 mana regen.
Post-buff v2.4 stats: Input your SPI, INT, and MP5 directly from v2.4 PTR paperdoll.

The spreadsheet calculates the following values:

Total mana
Average MP5 (using a FSR% which you can input)
2, 5, and 10 minute Effective Mana
Estimated endurance while spam casting (based on your maximum mana expenditure)
Estimated increase to mana, MP5, and effective mana for +1 INT, +1 SPI, or +0.4 MP5.

What is effective mana? Effective mana is an estimate for the most mana you can possibly spend over a 2, 5, or 10 minute time period, given all buffs and raid consumables. Effective mana is capped by your maximum mana consumption as it is impossible to spend more mana.

You may access the spreadsheet in two forms, the original XLS spreadsheet and an online Google Spreadsheets format:
MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...HFnUn1Fw&hl=en

Intellect is definitely a powerful stat with the new v2.4 formula. Unlike SPI or MP5, Intel boosts your spell crit chance. Compared to a point of Spirit, a point of Intel generally gives a much higher 2-minute effective mana and similar 5-minute effective mana, and only really falls behind at the 10-minute mark. Of course, you could argue that for most fights you aren't going to run out of mana before 5 minutes anyways, so Spirit still comes out ahead in the mana department.

And as everyone knows, Spirit is overwhelmingly superior to MP5 in v2.4. The crazy thing is, MP5 hasn't changed at all, it is still strong. It's just that INT and SPI are super strong.

Also, the change makes Flasks of Distilled Wisdom (65 INT) considerably stronger than Flasks of Mighty Restoration (25 MP5) for most healers.