Rawr Model Development (b16 released on 8/31) - Page 5

◊ Docjowles · 02/27/08, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Rawr doesn't 'pick' any gems for you, unless Kavan made some major changes that I haven't seen. The gems in each item are entirely customizable. (And careful about calling int/spr gems terrible, they may be the hot new gem in 2.4, I'm hearing.

)

I didn't realize you could change the gems around, I will play with that. But it gets the default gems from somewhere, and whatever heuristic it's using for that seems like it could be better.

I really appreciate all the work on Rawr by the way, this is a very awesome tool!

• Astrylian · 02/27/08, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Docjowles

I didn't realize you could change the gems around, I will play with that. But it gets the default gems from somewhere, and whatever heuristic it's using for that seems like it could be better.

I really appreciate all the work on Rawr by the way, this is a very awesome tool!

The default item gemmings are A) Whatever Kavan loaded it with, and B) Whatever's on your character. Kavan's a deep arcane mage, so those gemmings are good choices for him, but probably not so much so for many others.

Tifordin · 02/27/08, 4:04 PM

Getting this error when first opening the Rawr.Mage link posted above

[ Image removed ]

Never mind, failed to read instructions correctly

worked fine after extracting over Rawr b11.

Kavan · 02/27/08, 5:07 PM

Yes the gemming is that because I loaded it with that. I just wanted to load in some items so that you don't have to go look for ids of items that are relevant. The gem choices are not supposed to be intelligent, I just filled it all with the same. Next time I'll either leave the items unsocketed or make several versions of all items for the common gemming styles. If you want automatic gemming the closest thing to it I think is doing find for upgrades from armory menu which will fill gems that are best in your current setting (I'm not sure whether it considers socket bonus matching).

Tifordin · 02/27/08, 5:38 PM

Getting the following error when loading my character from the Armory:

************** Exception Text **************
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
   at Rawr.Mage.CalculationsMage.GetRawStats(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.Mage.CalculationsMage.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetItemCalculations(Item item, Character character, CharacterSlot slot)
   at Rawr.Calculations.GetItemCalculations(Item item, Character character, CharacterSlot slot)
   at Rawr.ItemComparison.LoadGearBySlot(CharacterSlot slot)
   at Rawr.FormMain.LoadComparisonData()
   at Rawr.FormMain.ItemCache_ItemsChanged(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at System.EventHandler.Invoke(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at Rawr.ItemCache.OnItemsChanged()
   at Rawr.ItemCache.AddItem(Item item, Boolean removeOldCopy, Boolean raiseEvent)
   at Rawr.Item.LoadFromId(String gemmedId, Boolean forceRefresh, String logReason)
   at Rawr.Item.LoadFromId(Int32 id, Boolean forceRefresh, String logReason)
   at Rawr.Item.get_Gem2()
   at Rawr.Item.GetTotalStats(Character character)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetItemStats(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.Mage.CalculationsMage.GetRawStats(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.Mage.CalculationsMage.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetItemCalculations(Item item, Character character, CharacterSlot slot)
   at Rawr.Calculations.GetItemCalculations(Item item, Character character, CharacterSlot slot)
   at Rawr.ItemComparison.LoadGearBySlot(CharacterSlot slot)
   at Rawr.FormMain.LoadComparisonData()
   at Rawr.FormMain.ItemCache_ItemsChanged(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at System.EventHandler.Invoke(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at Rawr.ItemCache.OnItemsChanged()
   at Rawr.ItemCache.AddItem(Item item, Boolean removeOldCopy, Boolean raiseEvent)
   at Rawr.Item.LoadFromId(String gemmedId, Boolean forceRefresh, String logReason)
   at Rawr.Item.LoadFromId(Int32 id, Boolean forceRefresh, String logReason)
   at Rawr.Item.get_Gem1()
   at Rawr.Item.GetTotalStats(Character character)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetItemStats(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.Mage.CalculationsMage.GetRawStats(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.Mage.CalculationsMage.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetItemCalculations(Item item, Character character, CharacterSlot slot)
   at Rawr.Calculations.GetItemCalculations(Item item, Character character, CharacterSlot slot)
   at Rawr.ItemComparison.LoadGearBySlot(CharacterSlot slot)
   at Rawr.FormMain.LoadComparisonData()
   at Rawr.FormMain.ItemCache_ItemsChanged(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at System.EventHandler.Invoke(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at Rawr.ItemCache.OnItemsChanged()
   at Rawr.ItemCache.AddItem(Item item, Boolean removeOldCopy, Boolean raiseEvent)
   at Rawr.Item.LoadFromId(String gemmedId, Boolean forceRefresh, String logReason)
   at Rawr.Item.LoadFromId(Int32 id, Boolean forceRefresh, String logReason)
   at Rawr.Item.get_Gem2()
   at Rawr.Item.GetTotalStats(Character character)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetItemStats(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.Mage.CalculationsMage.GetRawStats(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.Mage.CalculationsMage.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character, Item additionalItem)
   at Rawr.CalculationsBase.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character)
   at Rawr.Calculations.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character)
   at Rawr.FormMain._character_ItemsChanged(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at System.EventHandler.Invoke(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at Rawr.Character.OnItemsChanged()
   at Rawr.FormMain.set_Character(Character value)
   at Rawr.FormMain.LoadCharacter(Character character, String characterPath)
   at Rawr.FormMain.loadFromArmoryToolStripMenuItem_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.RaiseEvent(Object key, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripMenuItem.OnClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleMouseUp(MouseEventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.FireEventInteractive(EventArgs e, ToolStripItemEventType met)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.FireEvent(EventArgs e, ToolStripItemEventType met)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ScrollableControl.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.OnMessage(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)

Don't have VS2008 installed at work or I would fire up the source and see what was going on... Maybe it is an issue specific to my character... Try loading character "Tifordin" from US realm "Khaz'goroth".

Skysec · 02/27/08, 5:45 PM

Is there anyway you can lock item properties in the item editor?

The reason I'm asking is because sometimes when I go into the item editor to create new pieces of armor with different gems (If there's a better way to change gems in a piece of gear, please tell me) sometimes the socket bonus goes away when I play around with it (Like just clicking on different items removes the socket bonus)

• Astrylian · 02/27/08, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Skysec

Is there anyway you can lock item properties in the item editor?

The reason I'm asking is because sometimes when I go into the item editor to create new pieces of armor with different gems (If there's a better way to change gems in a piece of gear, please tell me) sometimes the socket bonus goes away when I play around with it (Like just clicking on different items removes the socket bonus)

The socket bonus field is all frelled up at the moment, hope to have it fixed in b11a. Sorry. :P

YagerMyster · 02/28/08, 12:26 AM

Feature Request: Gem Optimizer

Suppose I have my two blue gems in a crappy belt to activate my RED. Rather than only listing belt upgrades that have two gem slots and using Blue/Blue in the slots, can Rawr more intelligently suggest gem changes? IE: Regem my shoulder to purple/purple and now belts X, Y, and Z are now upgrades to the crappy one currently equipped?

thedopefishlives · 02/28/08, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by YagerMyster

Feature Request: Gem Optimizer

Suppose I have my two blue gems in a crappy belt to activate my RED. Rather than only listing belt upgrades that have two gem slots and using Blue/Blue in the slots, can Rawr more intelligently suggest gem changes? IE: Regem my shoulder to purple/purple and now belts X, Y, and Z are now upgrades to the crappy one currently equipped?

Yager

I suppose, in theory, it'd be possible to make the gems work sort of the way gear does right now, where upgrades could be calculated based on the calculated stats, with the optional constraint to force usage of the meta gem if one is present. I might take a look at it later, as part of my continuing work in the Moonkin module.

Pulchellus · 02/28/08, 1:46 PM

You could see if one gem selection is better than another by creating multiple versions of the item with different gem setups.

Personally I love Rawr on my Druid and look forward to seeing what comes out of these projects. Which got me thinking about how you could get around the problems you face particularly with Enhancement Shaman which can't be easily modelled. How about you use the EP values that you would get out of Yo!'s Simulator. There could be a few standard sets for people who have no idea what that simulator is or aren't inclined to visit. And you could also give people the option to input their own values. The effect would be the same as running out a list from Lootzor or Thottbot, but give people the additional functionality of seeing how that peice of gear effects their stats when it is equipped with your other current gear. Having chosen a few upgrades you can then go back and plug your new numbers into Yo's Simulator and see how much you have actually improved your dps.

To a certain extent a function like this could allow you to create versions of Rawr you know very little about, or are hard to provide a proper model for. For instance I would never expect someone to come up with a model on how I cast with my priest - there are too many variables. Priests have 10 healing spells and depending on where you are at in progression it will reflect in your healing style. I know someone who still flash heal spams, whereas I downrank heavily, CoH spam when I have it, throw out a lot of PoM's and Renews if I'm moving around - that sort of thing. But even then it would be nice to have something allow me to see what sort of effect a new peice of gear is going to have on my stats. Being able to give certain stats a weighting could let me see quickly whether it is a good upgrade or not. If I was then also able to put in some minimums or maximums as well so that I can't go so crazy on +healing that I forget about things like stam. For instance >6k hp and stam gets a value of 2, 6k-7k stam gets a value of .2, <7k 0. The end result would be far more useful than any Thottbot or Lootzor list could ever be - and it can all be done in a realitively offline environment!

◊ Malan · 02/28/08, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Pulchellus

The effect would be the same as running out a list from Lootzor or Thottbot, but give people the additional functionality of seeing how that peice of gear effects their stats when it is equipped with your other current gear. Having chosen a few upgrades you can then go back and plug your new numbers into Yo's Simulator and see how much you have actually improved your dps.

Basically this is why you wouldn't implement it as you described, it would be worthless. If thats all rawr could do for enhancement, then we would just stick with the status quo. Shalas was making progress that indicated that a reasonable closed form implementation could be discovered, and if thats the case then Rawr would applicable.

Rustyshrapnel · 02/28/08, 2:22 PM

I still cannot get anything to happen when I try to load my character (Kunjana, US, Medivh) from Armory. This is with a fresh install of Rawr b11 on a completely different computer that never had it installed before. It keeps saying it's getting no response to its query for Armory data.

YagerMyster · 02/28/08, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Pulchellus

You could see if one gem selection is better than another by creating multiple versions of the item with different gem setups.

You're missing the point of my suggestion. I would like Rawr to advise me that regemming my shoulders to intentionally miss a socket bonus and gemming my belt to hit a socket bonus would be more effective than getting the shoulder's bonus and missing the belt's bonus (particularly for activating metagems).

Which got me thinking about how you could get around the problems you face particularly with Enhancement Shaman which can't be easily modelled. How about you use the EP values that you would get out of Yo!'s Simulator.

The whole purpose of Rawr is that it doesn't use an 'Equivilency Points' system. Such a system is effective for only a single point change to your stats. +1 agi (or any other stat) then needs a re-evaluation to determine how each stat relates to the other stats.

◊ Binkenstein · 02/28/08, 7:15 PM

Originally Posted by YagerMyster

The whole purpose of Rawr is that it doesn't use an 'Equivilency Points' system. Such a system is effective for only a single point change to your stats. +1 agi (or any other stat) then needs a re-evaluation to determine how each stat relates to the other stats.

Welcome to Enhancement Shaman, where you cannot do that. The only way we've found (so far) to correctly model things is to use a simulator.

Kavan · 02/28/08, 9:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rustyshrapnel

I still cannot get anything to happen when I try to load my character (Kunjana, US, Medivh) from Armory. This is with a fresh install of Rawr b11 on a completely different computer that never had it installed before. It keeps saying it's getting no response to its query for Armory data.

There was a fix recently that changed where the armor icons are pulled from. I replaced Rawr.Mage b2 download with the latest version and also added the icons that are used by the items in the item cache. Should probably also solve some other issues people were having. Let me know if it works for you.

Stormhole · 02/29/08, 5:35 AM

Is there a 2.4 version of the itemcache with a more complete set of caster gems and drops available ?

Kavan · 02/29/08, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by Stormhole

Is there a 2.4 version of the itemcache with a more complete set of caster gems and drops available ?

Rawr.Mage b2 now has new gems and most new epic drops.

Allev · 02/29/08, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Welcome to Enhancement Shaman, where you cannot do that. The only way we've found (so far) to correctly model things is to use a simulator.

Shalas is at least researching closed-form modeling, as seen on the previous page of the thread. You may very soon be able to do that.

While a Rawr.Lootzor-ish thing is probably possible, even with a button to run a simulator and auto-set your EPs, it just reduces Rawr to something you get with 2 web pages.

Vistol · 02/29/08, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Welcome to Enhancement Shaman, where you cannot do that. The only way we've found (so far) to correctly model things is to use a simulator.

Just a thought, but if a data base of the results of these sim's were kept, and identical runs were tossed out, wouldn't we get a enough points after a while to run a regression and get the EP equation for enhance shaman (however complex it might be)?

◊ Malan · 02/29/08, 10:18 AM

That's actually what shalas was beginning to look at if you go back a few pages.

Vistol · 02/29/08, 10:27 AM

my apologizes, long time since i've been at that kind of math.

◊ Shalas · 02/29/08, 10:51 AM

I'm trying to figure out what data is actually needed to do the regressions, as the comprehensive data set is many orders of magnitude larger than is practical unless someone is willing to donate a vast amount of computing power every time the model changes.