The BT gem optimization thread

Mearis · 02/21/08, 8:36 AM

We have been farming Hyjal/BT a while now, but we are getting a problem now with gem availability, due to completely skewed demand for certain gem types.

We have a queue of about 7 or 8 spinels already, while we have several stacks of lionseyes, pyrestones, amethysts, and seaspray emeralds.

I am sure that spinels are by far the best gem for A LOT of classes, due to scaling with kings, and pure stats being optimal for all classes. I am also sure that in an ideal world most classes would want only spinels, however, what I am specifically interested in is how good is the next-best gem for various classes/specs. I do not want to know who deserves them the most, that's completely subjective, and will lead to a shitload of controvery, I am just curious of how good are the other alternatives other classes have at their disposal.

For example, for shadowpriests, the best gem after a spinel is a living ruby - that is a 30% loss in damage. Shadowpriests cannot use any of the other cuts right now, except maybe the new spelldamage + haste gems.

For mages, how big a hit is it to go from spinels to pyrestones?

For warlocks, how big a hit is it to go from spinels to pyrestones?

For ret paladins, how big a hit is to go from spinels to 5str/5crit gems?

Expecially looking to sunwell, the amount of spinels we will need looks extremly daunting.

Kyth · 02/21/08, 8:43 AM

Warlock

Affliction is the same as spriest.

Demo is probably the same also.

Destruction (crit yellow gems; you're at hitcap in BT/MH gear):

Lionseye: 8.84dps
Ruby: 9.49dps
Pyrestone: 10.75dps
Spinel: 12.65dps

Somewhere in the neighborhood of a 15% dps loss to go with pyrestones basically. As you get closer to sunwell it will be less of an issue since unless itemization changes dramatically, your warlocks will be gemming their new gear with Veiled Pyrestones in all yellow slots in a desperate attempt to not have huge amounts of soulshatter resists.

Anarkii · 02/21/08, 8:51 AM

For ret paladins, going from a spinel to a pyrestone is about a ~1DPS loss.

Roywyn · 02/21/08, 8:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

For mages, how big a hit is it to go from spinels to pyrestones?

Spinel = 12 dmg
Pyrestone = 6 dmg, 5 crit ~ 9.75 damage equivalent
Lionseye = 10 crit ~ 7.5 damage equivalent

That's for fire mages in T6 gear. Spell hit gems are currently useless as with current itemisation it's much better to get hit from gear and gem for damage.

Edit:
For sunwell, with the gear that's currently known, you can use 3-5 pyrestones to cap hit. Depends a bit on what you have and can reach, and there are quite a few items where you can't say which ones are better, as their values are extremely close and shift when you switch gear.
I expect to use 2 pyrestones if usually grouped with a resto shaman.

They added 37 hit on sunwell T6, which drastically chenged the need to +hit. Seeing that about all of the gear has wrong armour and there is a lot of stuff that needs attention or was changed seemingly last minute, I think it's too early to predict anything.

Mearis · 02/21/08, 8:56 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Spinel = 12 dmg
Pyrestone = 6 dmg, 5 crit ~ 9.75 damage equivalent
Lionseye = 10 crit ~ 7.5 damage equivalent

That's for fire mages in T6 gear. Spell hit gems are currently useless as with current itemisation it's much better to get hit from gear and gem for damage.

Is this true in sunwell as well, or is the situation similar to what Kyth described?

Kyth · 02/21/08, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Is this true in sunwell as well, or is the situation similar to what Kyth described?

To clarify: they seem to be adding spell hit onto gear. So I'd hold off on changing gem priorities until things settle out.

Also if your locks have Skull of Guldaan, or a MH/OH combo, they are doing very well for +hit and will probably prefer to gem for damage. Gemming for damage is flat out always better because you don't get stuck way over the hitcap. Gemming to hit a very precise hit number is pretty annoyingly hard and wasteful if you do it right.

I just meant you may see less of a need when Sunwell launches depending on the +hit situation for red gems for new gear.

Mages need 164 hit (but they're okay if they are under because their deaggro cannot resist), locks 202 (and 15-16% is a pretty firm number you need to hit.)

In general though the sunwell gear has better sockets on it and better socket bonuses, so you'll see RY combos more often, as the blue sockets are gone so hitting the gem bonuses actually has value even if you're socketing crit-based pyrestones.

tedv · 02/21/08, 9:30 AM

We can assume that Spinels are the best for almost all classes. The real question is the relative value of Pyrestones, Lionseyes, and Amethysts to Living Rubies. For Shadow Priests, Rubies are still better than all epic gems except the spinels, and the same is true for affliction warlocks. Is this true for other classes like mages and hunters? Ie. do they have alternatives to Spinels that are still an upgrade from rubies? I honestly don't know, but I think the answer is yes.

I guess I'm a bit biased, but I believe Spinels should first go to those classes who have literally no other upgrade options as far as epic gems go. An epic haste cut for shadow priests could change this-- still worse than spinel (we think) but better than rubies. Has the existence of a quick lionseye been confirmed yet, or is it still hanging out with the steady seaspray emerald?

Mearis · 02/21/08, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by tedv

We can assume that Spinels are the best for almost all classes. The real question is the relative value of Pyrestones, Lionseyes, and Amethysts to Living Rubies. For Shadow Priests, Rubies are still better than all epic gems except the spinels, and the same is true for destro warlocks. Is this true for other classes like mages and hunters? Ie. do they have alternatives to Spinels that are still an upgrade from rubies? I honestly don't know, but I think the answer is yes.

For warlocks this isn't the case according to Kyth.

tedv · 02/21/08, 9:36 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

For warlocks this isn't the case according to Kyth.

My bad; I mean affliction warlock. (Original post edited to reflect this.)

Primalr · 02/21/08, 9:40 AM

You should also count in the socket bonus when considering this.

Many people want to sock spinels all the way, and therefor break their socket bonuses.

For example:
<Yellow Slot>
Socket Bonus: +2 spelldmg

Yields an extremely higher relative value of yellow vs spinels.

So, if you plan on making a change, not allowing people to socket spinels into anything else than where it doesn't break a +dmg bonus might be a better way to go.

tedv · 02/21/08, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by Primalr

You should also count in the socket bonus when considering this.

Many people want to sock spinels all the way, and therefor break their socket bonuses.

For example:
<Yellow Slot>
Socket Bonus: +2 spelldmg

Yields an extremely higher relative value of yellow vs spinels.

So, if you plan on making a change, not allowing people to socket spinels into anything else than where it doesn't break a +dmg bonus might be a better way to go.

Again, this still depends on the class. There are a lot of items with 3 socket for +5 damage, and shadow priests still want living rubies over filling the bonus. For example, suppose you have 2 blue and 1 yellow socket (so filling it won't break your metagem requirement).

2 Amethyst + 1 Pyrestone + bonus = 12 damage + 12 stamina + 6 damage + 5 crit + 5 damage = 24 damage, 12 stam
3 Living Ruby = 27 damage
3 Spinel = 36 damage

So in this case, the rubies are still better than filling the socket bonus unless you really need 12 stamina.

Malazaar · 02/21/08, 10:39 AM

For Feral Druids (regarding DPS), Agi Gems are so ridiculously good that even the blue +8 Agi Gem is better than any non Spinel BT Gem (even Jewelcrafter Gems, although the 12 Critrating Gem is about equal to 8 agi).

So it's pretty much either Delicate Crimson Spinel or not BT Gem at all (Delicate Living Rubies). The only exception are 2 Pyrestones you probably want for the Meta Gem.

Bungie · 02/21/08, 10:48 AM

From what i found with the dps warrior spread sheet warriors will normally find larger dps increases with stacking +10crit or +5str/+5crit gems over socketing with +10str gems, especially if they are specced arms.

Feist-Mok · 02/21/08, 10:48 AM

Rogues are probably the easiest to deal with - at least until Sunwell gear comes with it's fairly large amounts of hit, we're generally content to socket straight Glinting Pyrestones/Rigid Lionseyes with a pair of purples for meta.

Once Sunwell gear hits, it's starting to look like a full sunwell set will hitcap most rogues, and going for spinels across the board won't just be the best option it'll be the only one as any hit from a yellow would be wasted - may be too early to call that just yet though.

Mearis · 02/21/08, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

For Feral Druids (regarding DPS), Agi Gems are so ridiculously good that even the blue +8 Agi Gem is better than any non Spinel BT Gem (even Jewelcrafter Gems, although the 12 Critrating Gem is about equal to 8 agi).

So it's pretty much either Delicate Crimson Spinel or not BT Gem at all (Delicate Living Rubies). The only exception are 2 Pyrestones you probably want for the Meta Gem.

What about for tanking, are there any reasonable alternatives?