The BT gem optimization thread - Page 2

koaschten · 02/21/08, 10:54 AM

Feist summed it up quite well, though it might happen that rogues will want to socket yellow with pure hit where possible and applicable to min-max resistance gear fights and as a result will socket spinels in red sockets to balance out to not get over the cap. Yes its nit-picking but its optimization

Pyros · 02/21/08, 10:57 AM

For healers in general, and here I'm gonna make a pretty broad assessment that I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with, I'd say purple gems in 11heal/2MP5 cuts are usually better than 18healing ruby, with the exception of druids(and maybe priests) if they have a spriest in their group, or if they can afford to keep their innervates for themselves.

However, this will probably not be true anymore for priests and druids in 2.4 in all cases(int/spi change), this is dicussable with paladins against the heal/int orange gem depending on fight duration, and this can be very different depending on if you have spriests in your healing groups or not. We do, and for me as a resto druid, unless I want to save money on potions, gemming 18heal is always better than gemming 11heal/2mp5. But I still gemmed my T6 helm with a royal amethyst because the set bonus being +7heal, and only requiring 1gem(besides the meta), you end up with a loss of only 4healing over a crimson spinel, and same healing as a living ruby, with an additional 2mp5. If we weren't short on spinels I probably would have gemmed pure healing but well, it's a decent tradeoff. I gemmed the gloves with spinels, and my trash cloth boots with spinels too.

Malan · 02/21/08, 11:01 AM

Enhancement Shaman
Going off the T6 Enhancement Point values, assuming Blessing of Kings:
[Bold Crimson Spinel] = 22 EP or ~7 DPS
[Inscribed Pyrestone] = 19.7 EP or ~6 DPS
[Smooth Lionseye] = 17.4 or ~5.22 DPS

Without Kings:
Spinel: 20EP or ~6 DPS
Pyrestone: 18.7 EP or ~5.6 DPS
Lionseye: same as above

Allev · 02/21/08, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

What about for tanking, are there any reasonable alternatives?

Both purples and blues are decent alternatives for tanking, if the bear isn't purposely stacking dodge. Although if your druid plays as a "hybrid" (i.e. both tanks and DPSes in the same gear) at all, he'll want spinels in many/most cases.

For the casters: are the new haste gems worth considering at all?

tedv · 02/21/08, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Enhancement Shaman
Going off the T6 Enhancement Point values, assuming Blessing of Kings:
[Bold Crimson Spinel] = 22 EP or ~7 DPS
[Inscribed Pyrestone] = 19.7 EP or ~6 DPS
[Smooth Lionseye] = 17.4 or ~5.22 DPS

Without Kings:
Spinel: 20EP or ~6 DPS
Pyrestone: 18.7 EP or ~5.6 DPS
Lionseye: same as above

Extrapolating for Living Ruby:

With Kings: [Bold Living Ruby] = 17.6 EP or ~5.28 DPS
Without: [Bold Living Ruby] = 16 EP or ~4.8 DPS

So Rubies are better than Lionseye with kings and worse without. They are always worse than Pyrestones.

Originally Posted by Allev

For the casters: are the new haste gems worth considering at all?

Yes, for all casters, if it doesn't break their metagem.

DarKNecross · 02/21/08, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bungie

From what i found with the dps warrior spread sheet warriors will normally find larger dps increases with stacking +10crit or +5str/+5crit gems over socketing with +10str gems, especially if they are specced arms. I am assuming that ret paladins are fairly similar to dps warriors in this aspect, so if either classes attempts to justify putting Spinels in there gear, i would turn them down, and just save and hoard them for classes where it is the best gem choice by far to socket with.

Your assumption for Paladins is wrong. Paladins get a 10% bonus to Strength, which makes Spinels worth a lot more than they are for Warriors, plus we don't have to worry about Flurry uptime. Spinels are the best by far, and the only alternative is Inscribed Pyrestone, which is a little better than Bold Living Ruby.

lairpie · 02/21/08, 11:34 AM

most resto druids at that level will be using pretty much nothing but teardrops spinnels or teardrop rubies for nearly every slot. there's pretty much no other option. You can't find a way to not have enough mana regen from your gear already to need mp5 on them at all.

For feral druids tanking solely, shifting amethist are about as good as delicate spinnels. If the druid is tanking and dpsing, spinnels are vastly better to the point where the druid would probably be better off with rubies rather than another epic gem. This varies greatly with socket bonuses.

Beska · 02/21/08, 11:38 AM

Using my own personal coefficients that seem to work pretty well and are close to what others are saying:

1 dmg = 1 dmg (baseline)
1 crit = 0.70 dmg

Spinel = 12 dmg
Pyrestone = 9.50 dmg
Lionseye = 7 dmg.

The majority of the time, mages will use 2 purple gems for the meta bonus, and then go purely for Spinels. Hit is not usually an issue, since the best mage weapon combo is Tempest of Chaos + Chronicle of Dark Secrets, that has 34 hit (2.7%). Hit from weapons are important, and with the Skull mages are normally head over heals for hit.

It's too early to predict for Sunwell, since they're adding and changing gear all over the place.

Alexsiss · 02/21/08, 11:39 AM

For Rogues as it stands right now with known sunwell best gear:
Need 11x Pyrestone
2x Shifting Tanzanite(Or Shadowsong)
1x Lionseye

Leaves rogues at 358 with +20 hit food making the gear optimal for trash and bosses.

No reason to use a Spinel ever. If new gear comes out with ridiculous hit this might change though

Krazen · 02/21/08, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Allev

Both purples and blues are decent alternatives for tanking, if the bear isn't purposely stacking dodge. Although if your druid plays as a "hybrid" (i.e. both tanks and DPSes in the same gear) at all, he'll want spinels in many/most cases.

For the casters: are the new haste gems worth considering at all?

Is there a confirmed epic version?

tedv · 02/21/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Krazen

Is there a confirmed epic version?

There are no confirmed epic haste gems, just rare quality cuts. We're hoping though.

Jayde · 02/21/08, 12:06 PM

Although healing gems are a bit harder to factor than DPS--where spreadsheets are more or less 100% accurate, instead of healing where one has to balance regen vs. healing factors--a very common weight is in the ballpark of 1 healing to 3 mp5. Personally, I end up around 1:2.9 on my sheets, but this will vary from Priest to Priest.

However, if one were to look at gems given roughly that value, it ends up being:
25.92 Sparkling Empyrean Sapphire
22.00 Teardrop Crimson Spinel
20.73 Sparkling Star of Elune
20.28 Luminous Pyrestone
19.37 Purified Shadow Pearl
18.00 Teardrop Living Ruby
16.80 Royal Shadowsong Amethyst
16.80 Royal Tanzanite
16.42 Luminous Noble Topaz

(Note, this is post-2.4. Spirit gems aren't quite as good at the moment as they are in that list. Int gems are much worse currently than in that list.)

Aastarius · 02/21/08, 12:22 PM

Where a +dam bonus is available for a single gem slot I tend to not use spinels. Gets a bit "woolly" when there is 2 gem slots and it's spinels all the way when 3 slots available.

Bogeywoman · 02/21/08, 12:38 PM

The question of 'who gets the best benefit' is one thing, but there's another, bigger, more important question, which is 'who benefits the raid best'?

Given a Spinel and one of every class and spec combo with each one empty generic red slot (with no bonus), and assuming that they're all otherwise capped in the cappable stats, who should you give the gem to to make the whole raid better?

Given:

* Dots exert full +damage in one GCD
* VE/VT have synergistic effect scaling with +damage
* Shadow damage benefits from a large number of multipliers (Misery, Weaving, ISB, CoS)

the answer tends towards shadow priests (and affliction warlocks allowed to dot), because they scale out the fastest, and the SP also uses the damage to help out the group.

royaljester · 02/21/08, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Bogeywoman

The question of 'who gets the best benefit' is one thing, but there's another, bigger, more important question, which is 'who benefits the raid best'?

Given a Spinel and one of every class and spec combo with each one empty generic red slot (with no bonus), and assuming that they're all otherwise capped in the cappable stats, who should you give the gem to to make the whole raid better?

Given:

* Dots exert full +damage in one GCD
* VE/VT have synergistic effect scaling with +damage
* Shadow damage benefits from a large number of multipliers (Misery, Weaving, ISB, CoS)

the answer tends towards shadow priests (and affliction warlocks allowed to dot), because they scale out the fastest, and the SP also uses the damage to help out the group.

Tend to agree, even if spinels end up being top for rogues in the future. They give the entire group more mana which, unless they have a new energy or rage healer, still means you can heal mistakes easier in progression, which we are all coming upon. Past that, I would say locks would benefit second most from spinels, even as destruction, I'm fairly certain at top end gear levels, dmg > haste > crit (while hit capped), meaning while pyrestones can still be good, spinels are still top for them.

Other than the spriest or possibly a lock, I'd say any healer that wants them and is dedicated and knows they are the best for their class/setup should get, period. I'm damage at heart, but I think most top guild would agree, if you had all the dmg in the world and the worst healing possible, you'd probably not kill anything, while having the most amazing healers in the world and just avg dps can still kill bosses (save the few short enrages the dps/healer ratio might be affected).