The BT gem optimization thread - Page 3

oldmandennis · 02/21/08, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

So it's pretty much either Delicate Crimson Spinel or not BT Gem at all (Delicate Living Rubies). The only exception are 2 Pyrestones you probably want for the Meta Gem.

And 2 purple ones.

Grunge · 02/21/08, 2:53 PM

Uhm, there's what 10-15 gem slots. So using "inferior" gems is a 10-30'ish dps loss, which isn't that huge.
Also if you consider that people are not wasting their Spinels, it's not really a loss since someone else will be benefiting from those gems.

I don't think that "restricting" gems to certain classes is really necessary.
After farming BT for almost 6 months I think we don't have anyone who is still missing spinels for their "mainspec" gear.
It might be a bit different to new guilds, but I doubt that those x missing dps will make or break a kill.

Malazaar · 02/21/08, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

And 2 purple ones.

Yeah but you'll take Shifting Tanzanites for that, which are no BT Gems.

oldmandennis · 02/21/08, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

Yeah but you'll take Shifting Tanzanites for that, which are no BT Gems.

I guess you could get one, but wowhead is saying that in 2.4 they will be changed to 5agi/6sta, so worse then the BT one.

Malazaar · 02/21/08, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

I guess you could get one, but wowhead is saying that in 2.4 they will be changed to 5agi/6sta, so worse then the heroic one.

Ouch, thanks for pointing that out - even though i hate it :/

galzohar · 02/21/08, 11:17 PM

Most of the important stuff have already been said, but I figured I would add some DPS vs healer gem disribution ideas.

Based on the calculations I've done for my paladin, fully raid buffed with full consumeables:
(comparison done both in terms of healing equivalent points and a % increase to current ability to heal)

+healing equivalent values:

        for efficiency                   HPS burst (reliable)
         sp+shaman  sp only   neither  
Spinel     22	  22	  22  	    22
pyrestone  18.05	  18.325	  20.325     12.925
amethyst   18.58	  19.88	  24.54	    11
lionseye   14.14	  14.14	  14.14	    0
sapphire   15.16	  17.76	  27.08	    0

% increases:

        for efficiency                   HPS burst (reliable)
         sp+shaman  sp only   neither 
Spinel     0.814	  0.814	   0.814	    0.468
pyrestone  0.668	  0.678	   0.752	    0.275
amethyst   0.688	  0.736	   0.908	    0.234
lionseye   0.533	  0.533	   0.533	    0
sapphire   0.561	  0.657	   1.002	    0

According to these calculations it all depends how likely your pallies are to get shadow priests where it matters. Anyway you can see the highest efficiency you could possibly get from a gem is 1% from a sapphire without a shadow priest which is the least likely scenario. The burst HPS increase of a spinel is less than 0.5%. For comparison a DPS caster would gain something at the area of 1% DPS from a spinel. That generally means spinels should go to DPS.
On top of that, increasing raid DPS reduces the fight duration and thus the amount of healing needed and is an actual additional boost to the healer's ability to heal (only on the efficiency portion, though).

Since I bet the relative increases of other healers aren't significantly bigger, added to the fact that more dps = shorter fight, just make your healers choose if they want living rubies or shadowsong amethyst (assuming all your dps already have 2 for their meta gems wherever applicible).

Bogeywoman · 02/22/08, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

For comparison a DPS caster would gain something at the area of 1% DPS from a spinel. That generally means spinels should go to DPS.

As DPS I support and approve of your sentiment, but your math is completely off. A Spinel represents a 3 damage increase over a Runed Living Ruby, which is what we'd otherwise use. At 4/9 4/5, I'm at around 1680 damage raid buffed, so that 3 damage increase is about .1% increase to me.

volant · 02/22/08, 11:22 AM

Unless you have a very caster heavy raid, the best use for a Spinel is a Survival Hunter. It provides him with 2.5 more agi and gives every physical dpser in the raid +.83 AP over 8 agi gems.

lairpie · 02/22/08, 11:51 AM

Oh yeah, one can debate the merits of increasing dps vs increasing healing vs increasing bear dodge, but if you're looking to increase dps, every single spinnel should go to a survival hunter until he is pure spinnels even if it is on old gear (with the obvious exceptions to make his meta work). The raid dps increase for each 2-3 points of agi (ruby -> spinnel + talents + kings) on a survival hunter blows the benefits of a couple stats for any other dps class away.

Malan · 02/22/08, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Grunge

So using "inferior" gems is a 10-30'ish dps loss, which isn't that huge.

These forums argue over which talent/gear combinations lead to a 0.5 dps increase to proclaim something as 'best' on a daily basis. 30 DPS is monumentally huge from that perspective.

Ulari · 02/22/08, 12:04 PM

I think we're digressing from the topic the OP wanted to get into. He was looking more for posts like Galzohar, Jayde and Tedv that discuss the potential for using different epic gems besides Spinnels against cuts of rare qualitly gems, not as permenate solutions but as fillers untill enough Spinnels can be distributed. Not which spec deserves them most, more, or before others, I'm sure his guild can argue over that themselfs untill the sun comes up.

lairpie · 02/22/08, 12:12 PM

Most survival hunters, shadow priests, and resto druids will not use any gems that aren't red outside of maybe making a meta. Non spinnel BT gems would usually be a downgrade over living rubies unless there is an amazing socket bonus. That seems more directly answering the OP.

All that being said, 2 stat upgrades with extremely subjective valuations are probably not worth causing any drama over, so unless your guild is extremely content with decisions, I'd just do something slightly sub-optimal, but more fair. We just made a rule that to get a gem it has to be for a BT/Hyjal item, and you need a certain attendance % based on how many of the gem we have. Like for us, i think you need like 90% attendance to get a spinnel. Making sure the most desired gems went to people who would always be there using them seemed best, and its hard to argue that its unfair.

Tuhalu · 02/22/08, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

For Feral Druids (regarding DPS), Agi Gems are so ridiculously good that even the blue +8 Agi Gem is better than any non Spinel BT Gem (even Jewelcrafter Gems, although the 12 Critrating Gem is about equal to 8 agi).

So it's pretty much either Delicate Crimson Spinel or not BT Gem at all (Delicate Living Rubies). The only exception are 2 Pyrestones you probably want for the Meta Gem.

As oldmandennis said above, add 2 blue gems as well (Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst after the patch). While 10 Agi is significantly better than any other non-meta gem for dps, the RED more than makes up for the loss and sometimes gemming bonuses do as well. Insidious Bands and Shadowmaster's Boots are perfect examples of gemming bonuses beating out pure Agi without regard to meta gems (the fact that they help you get your meta bonus is pure gravy). It's only in cases where a 10 Agi gem is clearly superior to any other gem that the 8 Agi gem is also superior.

That aside, yes, Spinels are usually the best gem for dpsing Druids.

lairpie · 02/22/08, 12:41 PM

like ulari said people aren't answering the question. Spinnels are the best gem for like 2/3 of the raid. No one is questioning that. But 2/3 of the raid can't all stack spinnels until you've been farming for a long time. So, which classes can gain some upgrade with non spinnel epic gems, and which are red gems or bust?

Feral druids, using a shifting amethyst in a lot of sockets can make socket bonuses that are close to as useful as that extra agility, especially considering t6 has 1 red socket. Furthermore, using spinnels on any item that someone doesn't use nearly 100% of the time (like any feral item that isn't tanking and dps) is obviously not really a good idea, compared to using that spinnel on an item that is always being used, so pure dps gear can pretty much be ignored.

For example [Thunderheart Gauntlets] have a blue socket and a 2 str bonus. Using a spinnel over a shifting amethyst is more dps, and about the same for tanking, making it probably better than matching the socket bonus. However, using a shifting amy is definitely better than a delicate ruby for anything, about the same for tanking, and pretty close to as good for dps.

To contrast, a survival hunter, other than to make the meta work, will flat out not use anything other than pure agi gems. Spinnels are the only upgrade available to them from rare gems.

oldmandennis · 02/22/08, 1:06 PM

Can anybody check if existing Shifting Tanzanites have been changed on the PTR? If you copy a toon over with one in his bags, do the stats change? What about if it's socketed in gear already?