[Shaman] Raiding: Enhance or Elemental? - Page 4

Kasi · 02/27/08, 12:34 PM

If you have the healing to stay in on Azgalor than yeah melee will put out better numbers there because silences won't affect their dps to the same degree. Same with Rage since I think he is a pretty low armor boss. However I still think this is balanced by the fact that on Rage and Azgalor an elemental shaman can just outrange the abilites (he can outrange RoF completely) and its rather easy to reposition out of DnD and keep dps'ing.

tufy · 02/27/08, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Unaz

Although I'm wondering what you mean by enhance lacking prolonged dps. I think you must be raiding with 2 hander enhancement shamans or something, because if properly geared enhancement can do one thing it's prolonged DPS. We don't run out of steam/mana ever, unless a boss is specifically draining us, and even then it's hard to go OOM.

I wasn't really referring to running oom. What I usually observe is that I start fairly slow on damage meters, while Bragor (our enhancement shaman) gets close to top on meters. However, as time goes on, thing turns, as I build up damage fast, while Bragor starts failling behind. I have no idea what the reason behind it is, it's just something I observed and it repeats regularly. The reason may be related to the fact that I'm dropping all four totems for my T6 set bonus, while he only really needs to drop 2 (strength, winfury). It may also be related to me placing totems in the start of the fight, rather than before it (to build up a small threat buffer).

For a while, I thought it's simply my playstyle vs. his that means the change, especially after all the talk how the dps is equal. However, then one of our mages started playing an alt as a "backup enhancement shaman". He gained fairly good gear - and achieved nearly same numbers as Bragor. So now I'm more convinced than ever that it's not just me, it must be something about the damage itself, because the difference is not small, it plays out as around 200 dps advantage for me.

Typically an enhancement shaman will start his dps cycle and be running at full steam with 2 minute spikes on trinket cooldowns. And then another burst with bloodlust of course, but there's nothing that would make sustained dps fall off.

See, this is the kind of difference that could be the reason. I don't know Bragor's cycle and quite frankly we never really talked about it (I personally hate being melee in general, so it's a lost cause :p), but given that he would burn his cooldowns early and given that I use Crusade and TLC, which both need to charge up, this may well explain why I need some time to catch him up, but then regularly out-dps him, keeping high damage output, whereas he waits for spikes.

No idea, it would be worth a research, tbh.

Kasi · 02/27/08, 6:19 PM

That's interesting Tufy. I find it to be the exact opposite. I am generally the strongest starter in my raid, leading off with drums and trinket. I also have all 4 of my totems pre dropped on nearly every fight. For that first two minutes I am stellar. Then comes the dreaded time. Oh god, fuck this, I have to waste 6 stupid seconds to redrop my totems. It is hard to not fall behind during those 6 seconds on fights like Teron or Rage when I might not ever have to move or stop casting. Enhancement however can drop totems without ever affecting their dps cycle. They like us can pre drop, and then start right away on the dps.

Then when they get to that 1 minute mark to refresh searing and 2 minutes to refresh their main totems they can weave them in between shocks (5-6 second cooldown) and SS (10 second cooldown) with no issues at all. I have heard some rumor that dropping totems next patch might reset the swing timer, but I haven't had it confirmed yet. If that so that will make dropping totems for them just as bad as it is for us as well as killing any idea of totem twisting, but like I said I haven't read it to be confirmed yet.

mushar · 02/28/08, 2:23 AM

Wow, lots of responses and lots of good information.

I think, to simplify things (which is ironic considering my original post is still one of the longest), it really depends on your playstyle and preferences.

Enhancement if you're more melee oriented, or Elemental if you're more caster-oriented. Played well, both specs can be stellar in raids. Both specs require some research to perform at their best, and you'll want one of each in your raids for sure.

In the end there is no right decision other than what you decide for yourself.

Rotha · 02/28/08, 6:15 AM

I have played for the last 2 Years as Elemental with my Shaman( bar a brief stint as resto back in the mc,bwl days), and I have never struggled to keep up with any dpser I can easily top dmg metres aswell. I am the only Elemental Shaman in my guild that raids, we have 2 Enhancement ones.
I personally think that neither is better then the other, due to the fact that they both do completely different jobs, both can be as good as the other when played well and geared well.

Blazingwater · 02/29/08, 7:07 PM

All that being said, how well does each shaman support their group? Does anyone know exactly how much WF will increase the dps of a rogue, for example?

Let's use these buffs:

For ele-Wrath of Air (101 spell damage), and Totem of Wrath (3% hit, 3% crit)
For enhance-Strength of Earth (86 str, or 172AP, unbuffed), Unleashed Rage (+10% AP), and Windfury Totem (we should all know what that does)

And these groups:
(Enhance)-
Rogue
Rogue
Warrior
Retadin

(Elemental)-
Mage
Mage
Warlock
Spriest

The question is: How much does each class/group benefit from the shamans unique buffs? (ie. rogues get about 150dps from wf, 30dps from SoE, and 70dps from UR, so that's +250dps (no those aren't the real numbers))

Kasi · 02/29/08, 8:04 PM

If you want to quantify it look at the certain class threads. Regardless its a lot more powerful for melee. WF for arms warriors and retadins is the difference between viable and being not invited.

Blazingwater · 03/02/08, 12:23 PM

I know that their aren't calculations done for retadins easily found in these forums, along with some of the other classes and buffs. I was hoping to try to bring them together in this thread, or first made in this thread. I really don't have the resources to calculate them myself, so I brought the question to EJ.

grayrest · 03/02/08, 3:38 PM

These aren't exact (if you want exact, work off the pally spreadsheet) but the buffs in order of importance for a ret pally:

The exact value of WF to retadins depends on SoC versus SoB. For horde paladins, WF is a ~15% dps boost. For Alliance pallys, it's slightly lower, I believe in the 10-12% range.

For UR, t4 retadins run at around 2300 AP, t5 around 2800 AP, and t6 should be roughly 3100 AP. This assumes flasked and standard raid buffs (imp BS, imp BoM, SoE, Kings, Food).

For SoE, the pally will gain 94 str (104 str with kings) or 109 str (120 str) with enhanced totems. Convert at 2 AP per str.

For GoA, the pally will gain 3.08% crit (3.39%) or 3.54% (3.90%) with enhanced totems.

I'll skip out on the WoA/Mana Spring calculations because the total dps contribution is minor. Both would primarily benefit consecrate which is normally under 5% of a ret pally's total dps. Ret pallys use downranked consecrates (I personally use r1 and r3) to dump excess mana, which occurs if we get lucky with JoW procs or through spritual attunement when we're getting healed from raid damage. Together I'd estimate they'd add 10-20 dps depending on the fight.