[Hunter]Macros de-mythified - Page 3

Ebonleaf · 02/27/08, 2:33 PM

Just my 2 cp worth,

I peruse these forums alot. Theres alot of good info floating around and i appreciate everyone who contributes to it. I use Cheekys alot to plot gear, dps, goals, and whatnot.

I also use macros, as of about 6 months ago. It makes it easier to focus on the mechanics of the raid and how it's running. Being a raid leader, that's important to me.

Just my personal opinion and experience, but manually weaving a 1:1 auto/steady rotation appears (dps and mana usage) no different from manually timing it. All it does is free my eyes from the shot clock and allow me to keep a better eye on the battlefield.

I've played with 1:1:x and 3:2 rotations, both macros and manual. The difference is so minuscule as to be negligible.

I usually run a 1:1 auto/steady rotation with KC built in. If i want a 1:1:x i manually tap arcane or multi depending on the amount of CC going on. If i want some burst damage, i may switch up to a 3:2 rotation if the mood strikes me. Who knows.

Another thing.

In all this talk of macros, for and against, burst 3:2 or 1:1 steadys... no mention of mana.

As a BM spec i eat mana like it's going out of style. I don't always have the luxury of a Spriest, Shammy or Paly judging wisdom.

What good is a 3:2 rotation if you burn out in 1.5 minutes? The brightest stars burn twice as bright, and live half as long.

Your dps, as a hunter, goes to shite if you;

a) Die
b) Run out of mana

I understand manual weaving would provide good mana management.

However, if i stopped pushing my 1:1 KC macro (which has a reset of 1) for a second and went straight to manual weaving.. wouldn't it be the same thing? I believe so.

So, in further talks I'd love to see some thoughts on mana usage thrown into the macros vs manual debate.

It's rarely just those two factors by themselves.

Thanks

Ottoline · 02/27/08, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Bikiniwax

Since 2.3.2, a /castsequence macro will be lower DPS than using either the 3:2 macro (also called 2:3 macro) or by timing your shots yourself (provided you can do this). In other words, if you want to continue using a macro, stop using the /castsequence one and start using the 3:2.

Can I ask why? I do not see the difference between the 1:1 rotation produced by a macro and the 1:1 rotation produced by manually timing. The macro does not produce clipping, and manually timing (correctly, of course), does not produce clipping.

What's the difference? The exact same abilities are being used at the same times, in the same sequence.

As well, anyone using the old castsequence macro can easily stop it and substitute another special for Steady at any time. This does not produce clipping if done correctly, of course. So the insertion of specials is not an issue.

Praxx · 02/27/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ebonleaf

So, in further talks I'd love to see some thoughts on mana usage thrown into the macros vs manual debate.

It's rarely just those two factors by themselves.

Thanks

I would think your mana usage would be the same manual vs. macro if your timings were as accurate with a manual rotation. From recent testing here is the information I have on mana usage with different weapon speeds / macros.

Mana duration with KC

Weapon   Shot       Avg
Speed    Rotation   Comat until OOM
2.9      1:1        2:48
2.8      1:1        2:45
3.0      1:1        2:38
2.7      1:1        2:28
2.9      3:2        2:11
3.0      3:2        2:06
2.8      3:2        1:59
2.7      3:2        1:47

If you really want to make your mana last have a macro without KC. You will not clip your auto's nearly as much and your mana will last quite a bit longer.

Mana duration with out KC

Weapon   Shot       Avg
Speed    Rotation   Comat until OOM
2.7      1:1        4:22
2.9      1:1        3:46
2.8      1:1        3:44
3.0      1:1        3:40
2.9      3:2        3:04
2.8      3:2        2:52
2.7      3:2        2:48
3.0      3:2        2:30

KC only accounts for about 7% of the damage anyway. Just a thought.

Ebonleaf · 02/27/08, 4:07 PM

I totally agree with you Praxx. My main goal was to get people to include mana consumption in all these macro theory posts. You can 3:2 your heart out, but on a 8 minute fight with only pots and weapon oil for mana return; you won't last long.

And i'll try dropping the KC on my next run.

Regdar · 02/27/08, 10:07 PM

Manual weaving sounds oldschool, but some situations may require more attention to surroundings than your shot rotation. I doubt a dkp penalty could be avoided if you told the RL that you have a very complex shot rotation which requires that much attention and sometimes prevents you from looking at Omen or BigWigs bars.

Apart from that - yeah, manual has its benefits, mostly because of the new feature which allows you to negate ANY latency by casting steady shot 0.5 secs before auto goes off. That, with a 3.0 speed weapon and zero haste apart from Serpent's Swiftness can allow you to achieve a 1:1.5 rotation in BM.

So I vote for manual weaving on Teron and Kaz'rogal at least :P

Midnight · 02/28/08, 5:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ottoline

Can I ask why? I do not see the difference between the 1:1 rotation produced by a macro and the 1:1 rotation produced by manually timing. The macro does not produce clipping, and manually timing (correctly, of course), does not produce clipping.

What's the difference? The exact same abilities are being used at the same times, in the same sequence.

As well, anyone using the old castsequence macro can easily stop it and substitute another special for Steady at any time. This does not produce clipping if done correctly, of course. So the insertion of specials is not an issue.

Manually weaving shots can produce better results in 1:1 rotations under certain circumstances. The only disadvantage with castsequencing 1:1 rotations I see is that since 2.3 it seems like it´s possible to start casting steady shot slightly before auto shot without clipping it. Due to this mechanic it´s possible for very tight rotations to have less clipping when manually weaving.

The thing is, for this mechanic to really help you, you´ll have to time your steady shots very, very aggresive. This resulted in clobbering my auto shot completely in some cases though. So if you have a rotation that´s so tight that you´d clip your auto shots using the castsequence macro and if you´re really good at timing it manual (eg. don´t miss out a complete auto shot) manual weaving will result in a higher dps. Neither of those points fit for me.

Osse · 02/28/08, 5:53 AM

Humans make mistakes. When you start to get greedy while "just pushing it a tiny litte bit faster" you'll clip a few times per figh if not more.

khel · 02/28/08, 7:21 AM

First of all, using arcane shot instead of steady shot is NOT always a good idea, especially as BM. Timing kill commands manually is also never going to be as efficient as using a spam macro. You can crit 0.01 seconds before you would normally be loading up a steady shot, and miss the KC if you were doing it manually, where a spam macro would handle situations like this much better. You can use multishot with the spam macros very easily as well, as long as you understand how they work. The same goes with refreshing hunter's mark and scorpid sting.

So while I agree that it is worthwhile for every hunter to manually time their rotations while leveling enough to learn the concept of a shot rotation and to learn how their class works, you are just plain wrong in your idea that manual weaving is superior to using macros. It's also pretty arrogant that you would create a new thread here to try to make this point.

What could have been useful, and what I expected to see, was a detailed description of each of the macros and how they create different shot sequences, handle haste effects, etc.

lythrdskynrd · 02/28/08, 7:22 AM

Originally Posted by Motto

Foreword

The myth of 3:2

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command

• with certain variations to stop sounds, stop errors from showing or casting Lightning Breath if using a Windserpent

Did anyone actually ever really wondered what the oh so famous 3:2 macro does? Do this little test: get rid of your macros from your action bars. Install an auto shot timer bar if you don’t already have one on.

Drag the spellbook steady shot onto the bars and start spamming away. Yes, it does the exact same thing as the 3:2 “macro”, it generates the same sequence and number of shots.

What does this mean? It means it’s time people started opening their eyes and realized it’s easyer than ever to weave their shots manually. Why? Read below.

I can understand why this post has been generally poorly received ... you've made an assumption that because I'm using this macro there's something I'm not aware of. The suggestion that I perhaps need to "start to open my eyes" is a suggestion that your way is somehow superior and mine is somehow 'wrong'.

Outside of managing to phrase your post in a way that can be taken as somewhat arrogant... you've failed to acknowledge that there are in fact a number of other reasons for combining all regularly repeated actions onto a single button.

#1 - As stated by others - keeping all comands on a single button allows greater spacial awareness & mobility. Moving out of AOE & Spash Damage, announcing or trapping summoned adds.

#2 - Rather than playing this as a 'spammer macro' it can be simply used as a timing macro. Tapping it twice per auto shot (to start the next steady & make sure that KC fires if it's available)

#3 - others? personal preference? playstyle?

There may be no specific DPS advantage to the macro you've listed here - but there's also no specific disadvantage to DPS and a number of ancillary (side) benefits.

This particular version of the macro is (in my opinion) particularly exciting because it also manages to respond dynamically to a number of other things .. Dragonspine Trophy, Bloodlust, Rapid Fire, IAoTH (if you use it) ... great! It's always exactly at the right speed.

You've not managed to prove or 'de-mythify' this idea that it's easier in any way whatsoever during gameplay. In fact I'd argue the opposite - as you increase the keystrokes needed you increase complexity ... manual weaving achieves the same task in more keystrokes.

Originally Posted by Motto

Castsequence mania

/castsequence reset=x/target Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command

• where x = the number of seconds you wish the sequence should start over from the begining, totally unrelated and not influenced by / influencing your weapon's speed; programming stuff, not mechanics stuff.
• again, with certain variations to stop sounds, stop errors from showing or casting Lightning Breath if using a Windserpent

I never understood the arguments for this.
Not only you turn into a bot for 4 hours straight pushing 1 button, but you are not utilizing your class’ full potential. Regardless of spec.

You are a D.P.S. class. This means Damage Per Second. Why gimp the very essence of what you are supposed to be from start?

Using a balant macro that just uses 1 (one) special ability the class possesses (yes, the second is auto shot, but you’re not really <using> auto shot with a castsequence macro, you are just using the macro mechanics to weave the steady) limits your potential from start.

Using multi shot and arcane shot in a wise manner when their cooldowns are up will make a world’s difference in your damage output. It goes back to the start, more shots, more damage per second, if it is done right.

No sir! http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t13107-h...n_illustrated/

Install Dr. Damage http://www.wowace.com/wiki/DrDamage and see for yourself ... Steady Shot when compared to Arcane Shot does *MORE* damage with *LESS* Mana.

You don't do *MORE* by dropping a steadyshot.

The beauty of this reset macro is that if you don't worry about things like Dragonspine trophy, bloodlust/heroism, Rapid Fire, etc... you will not clip ... this is a great choice for some.

Your argument is flawed by a failure to acknowledge that steady shot is our best shot ... in fact significantly better than the others. There are those that will try to work in a way to increase damage output by adding an arcare to the standard 1:1 macro .... "Steady, Arcane+GCD, Auto, Steady, KC ,Auto" without delaying your auto - but that's not for everyone ... requires a very slow bow ... and I'm not sure it would work at all for someone in BM spec.

Originally Posted by Motto

Propper rotations 101

There are just 4 Steps I find necessary in order to really shine and feel good while you’re at it too. Go to Dr. Boom and do the following:

Step 1: Start auto shooting at the target. Just that. Enough time untill you get familiar with the frequency of which it fires.

Step 2: Once you’re confident with Step 1, start casting Steady Shots in between the Auto Shots in a manner that allows both to fire unconditionally and not delayed.

Again, do this untill you are familiar with the “rhythm”.

Step 3: Now the fun begins. Once every 6 seconds (5 if improved Arcane Shot talent is present in your spec) replace one of the steady shots with Arcane Shot.

Now a little tip: here’s where Kill Command shines and comes into play.

You will have certain ammounts of dead-time in between the special shots (and here’s where you need to pay attention, doing this for gaps between Steady Shot and Auto Shot will sometimes delay the following Auto Shot).
If Kill Command is up, use it right when you use the special shot and before the Auto goes off.
This way you are not doing any harm to the flow of your Auto Shots.

Step 4: Repeat Step 3, but replacing Arcane Shot with Multi-Shot every 10 seconds when the Cooldown is up, following the same Kill Command application process.

But this is exactly what the macro does in one button ... how is this superior? You may be teaching people what the macro is *DOING* for them ... but this does not give any specific improvement.

Do you perhaps mean Demystified?

Originally Posted by Motto

Rinse and repeat. Things should fall into place in a form simmilar to:

-	Auto Shot
-	Steady Shot
-	Arcane Shot (Kill Command – if active)
-	Auto Shot
-	Multi – Shot (Kill Command – if active)
-	Auto Shot
-	Steady Shot
-	…

Now one can argue that starting the rotation with another one of the special shots might be a better way to do this.

What I can say about this is that from personal observation this is a much better Global Cooldown + Steady Shot cast time management scenario than starting off with a different special. Your mileage may varry.

Specs this works for

All.

There’s no such thing as “BM has 20% firing rate, just use Steady:Auto, it’s better”. Precisely because of that, the loose time in between Auto Shots is smaller, damage per second is increasing.

Benefits and advantages of manual weaving

• better mana management
• optimizing rotations on the spot to the given situation
• playing the class actually becomes interactive
• sharpened reaction times that lead to better overall (situational) awareness in time

• better mana management
How is mana management better? Leaving out KC when I'm getting low?
In macro #1 above If I just hit it once per auto shot KC doesn't fire.
= same mana management

• optimizing rotations on the spot to the given situation
In a situation where max DPS is the most important thing - 1:1 is best
Using DST click more often when it procs

• playing the class actually becomes interactive
/shock
/outrage
"how very dare you sir!"
Seriously - to claim manual weaving - has some sort of innate superiority? Please.

• sharpened reaction times that lead to better overall (situational) awareness in time
There's no evidence for this making you faster or better in any way ... your claim has no proof.

Originally Posted by Motto

If all is done well, you should be the master of a perfectly coreographed Tango. Things will start flowing naturally into place.
This is one of the things that keeps me ticking after having cleared Black Temple since September. It’s one of the enjoyments I find in raiding and any form of PvE.

There are other benefits of doing things this way, but this is indented as an open debate in hope more people might addapt a manual approach of playing their class, so fire away.

Edit: changed the title to reflect the nature of the post in a better way, thanks Maturin for the tip.

The myth sir I believe is your attempt to sell this as somehow superior to a macro ... you *might* enjoy it more ... you might see it as some sort of 'dance' or similarly artistic form of expression ... but there is no empirical evidence that this is in any way superior to a macro ... in fact from the math I'm thinking it's a bit worse ... if you're adding an arcane every once in a while ... and if you're not doing aything that a macro can't do ... aren't you just cutting off your nose to spite your face?

Azulor · 02/28/08, 9:20 AM

Originally Posted by Motto

Foreword
The myth of 3:2

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command

Did anyone actually ever really wondered what the oh so famous 3:2 macro does? Do this little test: get rid of your macros from your action bars. Install an auto shot timer bar if you don’t already have one on.

Drag the spellbook steady shot onto the bars and start spamming away. Yes, it does the exact same thing as the 3:2 “macro”, it generates the same sequence and number of shots.

Not with haste gear it doesn't, at least not for me. I went back and reconfirmed previous tests I'd done just to be sure. So, having done numerous tests spamming Steady vs the above macro, and with an autoshot attack speed of 2.1, starting with a 3.0 bow, there is a vast improvement in total shots fired using the macro.

SS spam does not deliver 2:1 steady:auto, for example, with my haste gear, latency and very fast spamming. And the macro _does_ deliver a proper 3:2 with haste gear.

So there's an additional concrete reason to use a macro on a stand and deliver fight, at least under my conditions: it fires more total shots in the same period of time, at least compared to spamming steady or manual weaving. That, in fact, was a reason people were talking about 3:2 in the first place.

So the OP appears to contain a number of inaccuracies as I and others have pointed out.

Fimbo · 02/28/08, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by lythrdskynrd

Your argument is flawed by a failure to acknowledge that steady shot is our best shot ... in fact significantly better than the others. There are those that will try to work in a way to increase damage output by adding an arcare to the standard 1:1 macro .... "Steady, Arcane+GCD, Auto, Steady, KC ,Auto" without delaying your auto - but that's not for everyone ... requires a very slow bow ... and I'm not sure it would work at all for someone in BM spec.

Is this view now the recieved wisdom?

I've been working on something i read, i *think* from Lactose some time ago that said exactly the opposite:
That AS and MS both do more DPS that SS. Personally I've been prioritising MS (when i have mana) because of the bonus on the pvp gloves i use...

Destrali · 02/28/08, 12:15 PM

SS does more DPS than AS or MS when you consider the period of time the encounter lasts. SS will make up a far larger part of your damage than AS or MS, thus where it does more DPS. By adding in AS and MS to your rotations you further supplement your damage output but at the same time your shortening your inherent longevity. With proper group make up and consumables this kind of rotation whether via macro or not is the way to go as long as it can be sustained.

Glaurong · 02/28/08, 3:17 PM

It all depends on your gear. If you have the 4 piece Gronnstalker it is superior, if you use the ashtongue talisman it is vastly superior, if you have a really high raid buffed AP it gets even better (it scales at 20% of your AP, Arcane scales at 15%). Even against high armor targets.

Everyone needs to figure this out and decide for themselves. Even if arcane shot does more damage it does it at a premium, higher mana cost and another cooldown to juggle. Some specs require the extra cooldown to fill GCDs, some do not.

Exbox · 02/28/08, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

It all depends on your gear. If you have the 4 piece Gronnstalker it is superior, if you use the ashtongue talisman it is vastly superior, if you have a really high raid buffed AP it gets even better (it scales at 20% of your AP, Arcane scales at 15%). Even against high armor targets.

Everyone needs to figure this out and decide for themselves. Even if arcane shot does more damage it does it at a premium, higher mana cost and another cooldown to juggle. Some specs require the extra cooldown to fill GCDs, some do not.

If anything in Glau's post was omitted, it is the fact that most of our high end gear has some form of APen on it, so While AS does ignore armor, Glau is correct in how SS scales stronger compared to AS, and with the addition of high RAP at the end game, one also has the inclusion of high APen.

Bertoga · 03/25/08, 10:40 AM

I am using two macros too.
As mentioned before, KC + Steady as a BM (nice thing) and two other macros for the specials (TBW, + KC + Drums alternative TBW + KC + Steady for nice Rota). What I can say that I won some DPS from the first Macro because during Rapid Fire/Bloddlust it is quite difficult to cast KC+Steady without clipping the rota.
But for the rota I prefer to do it manually. That is the biggest difference between Hunters and most other classes so a hunter won't be as straight-forward as other classes.
It is, as mentioned before, just as the hunter prefers his class.

There are some clippings per fight as I can see by myself from the WWS-Logs but I don't think the raid depends on a single person and 50 dps more or less. A single bosskill maybe (first Illidan-Kill, Killing blow from the restro-druid done with moonfire) but overall I prefer being challenged every minute every fight.

What I am wondering much more while going through the logs again and again is the choice of trinkets.
Wow Web Stats
Kurapica, Eliiria and Gonktarget are all using the Hourglass but I am sure they have been exhalted with the Ashtounges at this time. Cheeky's sheet says the Ashtounge is better but I am still wondering, there must be a reason why they are using it.