DPS Compendium - Page 15

Rezarel · 04/12/08, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Xai

Now my understanding of haste has the strongest buff taking precedence, and the lesser ones being multiplicatively added to that. Now according to that train of thought, that puts haste potion at #1 priority giving 25.381% speed increase, followed by flurry at 25%, then dragonspine at 20.622%, then dragonstrike at 13.452%.

In my imagination this is how it goes;

25.381% x 1.25% x 1.20622% x 1.13452% = 42.417% total haste.

It doesn't work that way. You might want to look at Haste - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

The easiest way to think of haste is to look at attacks per minute, rather than time per attack. Flurry will increase your attacks per time by 25%, and then all your haste ratings add together and increase your attacks per time multiplied with that.

If you get 40 attacks per minute with no haste up, you'll get

40 * 1.25 * (1 + [400 + 325 + 212] / 1577) = 40 * 1.25 * 1.594 = 79.7 attacks per minute

Compare to without the haste potion,

40 * 1.25 * (1 + [325 + 212] / 1577) = 40 * 1.25 * 1.341 = 67.0 attacks per minute

So the haste potion gives you an extra 12.7 attacks per minute, which is exactly (1.25 * 0.25381) * 40, your base attacks per minute. The haste potion doesn't get any diminishing returns based on other haste rating items, and its effectiveness is actually increased by flat % increases like flurry or heroism.

Moogul · 04/12/08, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Grymm

By sundering yourself, you can have a 5 stack of sunder up by the 6 second mark. That's a gain of 16.5 sunder*seconds or however you want to quantify it. I am most prone to pulling aggro in the first 15 seconds when all the threat a tank might have is a MD, a PoM, and a bunch of misses/parries. I like to see a nice 10k aggro cushion before I start plowing into a boss. I'm sure this approach might hurt my pretty numbers some on certain bosses, but it's been a highly effective approach for me.

One thing to bear in mind is that testing has shown Devastate only gets the bonus threat for sunder when its actually applying it. That means the first 5 applications of devastate do vastly increased threat. By sundering early, you actually reduce the threat output of the tank at the beginning (when it is most important).

I'm not saying it's always a bad idea, but it's something to bear in mind.

• landsoul · 04/13/08, 3:29 AM

In other words, its simply:

increase in attacks per minute = attacks per minute * (1+flurry%) * (1+haste%) * (1+other speed effects%)

StrikeQ · 04/13/08, 4:20 AM

So going through the Kara WWS. In Boss fights I had 2207 attacks and 5 dodges. Giving a 0.23% dodge rate. That's with 6% dodge reduction. Giving an estimated 6.23% boss dodge rate. However this is a kara WWS and all the attacks I added up weren't just on the boss (Imps on Illhoof, Adds on Moroes, Skeletons on Nightbane, Flares on Curator etc) so it's most likely a little bit higher.

Going to go through my SSC WWS now. Which will still be slightly inaccurate (Spawns on Hydross, naga on lurker, murlocs on Morogrim, adds on Fathomlord).

SSC WWS, 2798 attacks during boss fights. 5 Dodges. Giving a ~0.18% dodge.

So from 2 WWS it gives a 6.18%-6.23% dodge rate. But it's actually a bit higher than that given that all attacks weren't on the level 73 Boss.

Kauvian · 04/13/08, 8:16 PM

For some reason my guild is unwilling to have the shaman drop windfury totems, it is the "belief" that grace of air will do more dps. Usually we have 2 hunters (1 survival), 2 warriors (both fury), 2-3 rogues (combat-swords), 1 shaman (enhancement), and 1-2 druids (feral).

I've tried multiple times to setup the groups to be shaman, warrior, druid, rogue, rogue in one and druid, hunter, hunter, warrior, misc in the other. It always gets trumped and ontop of that it seems the shaman is unwilling to drop windfury for the most part. I've done some theorycrafting and was curious if anyone else could do the same. Basically it boils down to the fact we would need a ton more melee players to make the hunter being in the group with the shaman and him dropping grace of air then as I want it with him dropping windfury. Any help will be appreciated, our guild is about to start Archimonde and I would like to maximize our dps.

• Agwho · 04/14/08, 1:28 AM

Get a shaman who isnt an idiot and/or lazy and have them totem twist. Best of both worlds.

If you're running so much melee, one of your warriors is probably better off as blood frenzy.

Anyway, make groups like this perhaps?

Hunters + Feral + Resto Shaman + Spriest
2 Rogues + 2 Warriors + Enh (one of the warriors could be a rogue, or a feral?)

• landsoul · 04/14/08, 3:57 AM

Best group for you is arms warr, fury warr, enh shaman, 1 rogue, and feral druid. Best for the raid would be another story. Hunters and other rogue/feral would probably be stuck in a diff group with a resto shaman or something

manglemangle · 04/14/08, 5:37 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Best group for you is arms warr, fury warr, enh shaman, 1 rogue, and feral druid. Best for the raid would be another story. Hunters and other rogue/feral would probably be stuck in a diff group with a resto shaman or something

wouldnt the best group for him be enh/him/hunter/hunter/feral

just sayin :P

Kauvian · 04/14/08, 10:32 AM

I'm not worried about the best group for myself. As I said I'm looking to maximize raid dps (with what we have).

My point is will the damage from windfury on 2 sword rogues and a single fury warrior be greater then agility on a hunter with expose weakness, druid and shaman. Keep in mind that we usually only have about 8 melee/ranged dps that use AP most of the time. Basically what it all comes down to is a 100ap difference from expose weakness in the two group setups, and at what point would the number of melee dps outweigh the gains of the 3 melee gaining windfury.

• Apate · 04/14/08, 11:03 AM

Can anyone link a working addon that will let me track sword spec procs, please?

• Mjollnir · 04/14/08, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Kauvian

I'm not worried about the best group for myself. As I said I'm looking to maximize raid dps (with what we have).

My point is will the damage from windfury on 2 sword rogues and a single fury warrior be greater then agility on a hunter with expose weakness, druid and shaman. Keep in mind that we usually only have about 8 melee/ranged dps that use AP most of the time. Basically what it all comes down to is a 100ap difference from expose weakness in the two group setups, and at what point would the number of melee dps outweigh the gains of the 3 melee gaining windfury.

You can napkin math this whole question.
WF is a 20% proc. Assuming a 100dps 2.7spd weapon, and assuming 90% Flurry uptime / SnD being permanently applied, you're looking at a proc once every 10sec.
A 2.7spd MH hits for 1k at mid-BT gear level, so you're looking at a raw 100dps boost from WF totem alone, not counting any rage gains, WF+sword spec chain procs, goose/executioner procs, etc.
The agility gained from GoA will benefit your hunter mostly with minor gains to others, but I don't see the agility gain to the hunter adding 50dps per person or anywhere close to it. Obviously you can continue to napkin math, but I just wanted to point out real quick just *how* amazing WF totem is to melee.
Then again, there is this novel concept on totem twisting...

Grymm · 04/14/08, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Moogul

One thing to bear in mind is that testing has shown Devastate only gets the bonus threat for sunder when its actually applying it. That means the first 5 applications of devastate do vastly increased threat. By sundering early, you actually reduce the threat output of the tank at the beginning (when it is most important).

I'm not saying it's always a bad idea, but it's something to bear in mind.

I was operating under the assumption that devastate never got the sunder aggro bonus and only got it's own innate bonus when applied. As it were, if I steal 3 of the tank's 5 sunders, that only adds up to 1000-1500 threat total lost (assuming 3*300*1.495). Pulling with misdirect and PoM on the tank, it's becomes a trivial amount.

• landsoul · 04/14/08, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by manglemangle

wouldnt the best group for him be enh/him/hunter/hunter/feral

just sayin :P

Yeah, def for one person, but if he wants to get the maximum effect out of the group setup he should suggest enh/feral/arms/fury/rogue

Kauvian · 04/14/08, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

You can napkin math this whole question.
WF is a 20% proc. Assuming a 100dps 2.7spd weapon, and assuming 90% Flurry uptime / SnD being permanently applied, you're looking at a proc once every 10sec.
A 2.7spd MH hits for 1k at mid-BT gear level, so you're looking at a raw 100dps boost from WF totem alone, not counting any rage gains, WF+sword spec chain procs, goose/executioner procs, etc.
The agility gained from GoA will benefit your hunter mostly with minor gains to others, but I don't see the agility gain to the hunter adding 50dps per person or anywhere close to it. Obviously you can continue to napkin math, but I just wanted to point out real quick just *how* amazing WF totem is to melee.
Then again, there is this novel concept on totem twisting...

Okay thats about what I got from my math as well, I was saying ~100dps per windfury melee and with the hunter in the group I think it came out to an extra 100ap per raid member (due to unleased fury or whatever the shaman 10% ap bonus per crit talent is). So all things considered equal thats like 15-20dps per melee/hunter. So we'd be looking at needing around 10-12 melee dps to outperform non totem twisting windfury/goa. Thankyou for the help Mjollnir I really just wanted someone else to confirm what I thought was right before I start suggesting things.

Lambach · 04/14/08, 3:25 PM

The Shaman AP bonus doesnt effect range AP, get those hunters outta there.

• Mjollnir · 04/14/08, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Kauvian

Okay thats about what I got from my math as well, I was saying ~100dps per windfury melee and with the hunter in the group I think it came out to an extra 100ap per raid member (due to unleased fury or whatever the shaman 10% ap bonus per crit talent is). So all things considered equal thats like 15-20dps per melee/hunter. So we'd be looking at needing around 10-12 melee dps to outperform non totem twisting windfury/goa. Thankyou for the help Mjollnir I really just wanted someone else to confirm what I thought was right before I start suggesting things.

Np. Something else to keep in mind: UR (from your enh sham) probably does not influence the EW (from your surv hunt) debuff. So it's even less in favor of GoA stacking.
Napkin math again: untalented GoA is worth 77agil. Lightning Reflexes will give you 15% more being 89agil, and EW will turn that into 22AP. 16AP is worth directly 1dps not accounting for specials, but it's an indication of how small a gain EW coupled with GoA is compared to WF coupled with any warrior or rogue.

Voxx · 04/16/08, 3:04 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Yes could you please use 22.08%, 2 decimals is consistent with everything else. My bad on the 15.76, it is 15.77 after all, I was thinking about something else, apologies.

Fixed.

Edit: Also reworded the section on surviving and Commanding Shout, should appear to be more of a situational use than as I had phrased it before.

• landsoul · 04/16/08, 1:55 PM

Is the sunwell weapon coating added yet? It's the best consumable weapon enhancement arguably and not everyone will know abuot it right away. [Righteous Weapon Coating]. Its on a 1 PPM timer or 45 second hidden CD neither is known yet,

Lavos · 04/17/08, 4:40 AM

If your realm has built the Anvil, and thus has access to new badge rewards, the weapon coating is available. Which, in raiding terms, is nice on a fury warrior's offhand while doing Sunwell.

The guy with the dumb guild refusing to drop Windfury should find another guild. You shouldn't have to produce hard numbers to trump their crap they made up.

KooZ · 04/17/08, 5:38 AM

The proc doesn't seem to sport an internal CD, seen it proc a lot yesterday on kalecgos (tanking even) 2 procs within 30 seconds isn't exceptional, same goes for the caster one.

We've got the same "issue" with an enhancement shaman btw, too lazy to totem twist, to greedy to put down a windfury totem (yes he does top our meters) because our DPS warriors "slack" :/

• Mjollnir · 04/17/08, 6:38 AM

Originally Posted by KooZ

(yes he does top our meters)

If an enh sham is topping your guild meters, I would venture to say being worried about him dropping WF is the least of your worries with regards to [guild] DPS. I've seen Spriests and Enh shams do wonderful deeps, but in no way should they be topping meters.

[Edit] At risk of this finding its way into the 'Heap.. given equal gear, skill, and otherwise a level playing field, the mechanics just aren't there for him to be on top.

Arelan · 04/17/08, 1:29 PM

Hey guys, I've done some searches through the threads and I couldn't find anything on this question, and since we're on the topic of windfury I thought I'd bring it up.

As a DW Fury War, I normally HS on the majority of my swings. However, would it be an increase in DPS if I didn't HS due to the fact that windfury totem was down and it only procs off of white hits?

• Mjollnir · 04/17/08, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by Arelan

only procs off of white hits?

It procs off white hits and white hit modifiers or 'on next swing' attacks such as HStrike and Cleave.
By not HStriking, you are allowing yourself the possibility to glance, resulting in a loss of dps no matter how you cut your cake.

Arelan · 04/17/08, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

It procs off white hits and white hit modifiers or 'on next swing' attacks such as HStrike and Cleave.
By not HStriking, you are allowing yourself the possibility to glance, resulting in a loss of dps no matter how you cut your cake.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Glad I don't have to let heroic strike go. :P

• landsoul · 04/18/08, 12:55 PM

So coating doesnt have an internal cooldown??

I was thinking about something and came up with a funny idea.

Does Divine Intervention wipe threat?

Say for example, you were riding the tank's ass on aggro and it was coming close to the 20% mark on the boss, your execute, heroism, drums, haste pot, trinket, etc were ready to do to blow up the boss with execute.... But you are threat capped.

If a soulstone was not available, could an OOM or near-dead paladin pop a DI on the fury warrior to wipe his threat, keep his buffs, and allow him to goballs to the wall execute?