Gruntle

Well, if you look at the character screen in game after applying 2*adamantite stones you will se that both your MH and OH has "+24" damage in the tooltip for swing damage. This would indicate that the +12 damage applies to both hands, indeed making these stones better than what is currently modeled in sheets and so on. Not sure if it would be enough to make them better than the crit stones though.

It might be an error with the paper doll though, that wouldn't be the first time. Guess it's easy enough to check with low-lvl grey stuff (although maybe you can't apply the sharpening stones on too low-lvl stuff?).

 

Rabbitskull

Mutiple sharpening stones would prevent windfury. Less that was change at some point.

 

• Mjollnir

Gruntle wasn't suggesting actually using 2.

 

Serkhet

Well It's not concrete evidence, but doing a quick test with coarse sharpening stones outside SW on Lv10 swords, after I sharpened my offhand, the damage both my weapons did on mobs increased, and sharpening both weapons increased the damage on both weapons even more. Has anyone else tested the the effect where sharpening/weightstones are increasing damage on both weapons?

I don't know when this started happening, perhaps with 2.4 patch, but I didn't play between patch 2.3 and 2.4. So maybe its been like this earlier, just seems odd no one else has really inquired about this.

 

RPZip

This is certainly true when looking at the character sheet, as well as testing with the crappy gray weapons I did. I don't have any screenshots but it's pretty easy to test yourself if you'd like.

The Adamantite stones do seem to be superior because of the +12 Damage to both weapons. Interestingly enough, it applies to ranged attacks too... which isn't terribly relevant for Warriors, but it means that Hunters (should) have a very good reason to be dual wielding instead of using a two-hander.

As for Righteous vs. Adamantite, assuming that the stones work the way we think we do and the Adamantite Oil procs aprox. every 50 seconds with two 2.6 speed weapons the math works out to ~72.6 AP (counting Imp. Zerker and an Enh Shaman) versus ~64.6 AP (excluding Bloodthirst - the effect of +12 Weapon Damage to both hands) and 14 Crit Rating. At face value the Adamantite stones would seem to win, excluding the effect of overlapping temporary procs improving the Righteous Oil. That's hard to calculate and can have other problems (such as proccing in the first few seconds of a fight as you scramble to apply debuffs instead of throwing your damage rotation).

In short... I'm going back to the Stones, and time to see if I can AH those Oils.

 

gemmanite

I realized, wouldn't halved proc rates for offhand weapons probably apply to [Righteous Weapon Coating] too? If so, this would make me lean more towards using either sharpening stone for an offhand temp. weapon enchant over the weapon coating.

 

Rabbitskull

Noted, just didn't want to see a "I used two stones like you said and my DPS post went down" post. For an example see the the official WoW forums. Any post should work.

 

landsoul

When running numbers in my sheet, I can confirm that due to hidden cooldown and lower procrate on the off-hand, that the stone in offhand was running slightly ahead of the coating in the first place. Now that I changed the +12 damage to be added as an effective stat on the character not the weapon, the stone in the offhand is very clearly the best choice.

 

Giantlol

How saddening, this new weapon oil isn't very great at all
And here I was with high hope :o

 

Wump

Hi guys I've got a question about your DPS breakdowns.

This is from a recent Hyjal kill. Anetheron Kill

My question is if these are the relative breakdowns you are experiencing on stand-and-nuke fights? Is your BT damage percentage around these levels, or did I just screw up my rotation? What percent does Execute usually account for? I don't feel that 12% is terrible, however I feel it should be higher, especially when propperly timing Haste Pot/Reck and possibly Drums/Heroism. (I know that I timed the first two, not sure on the second two.)

Comments/Critique welcome as always.

 

Graul

Execute doesn't scale *much at all*, your other instants and melee attacks do. Execute only makes up 5% - 8% of my overall damage ever depending on the length of the fight. For your gear level 10% - 12% seems about right. It also looks like you were either having rage or threat issues due to the low amount of Heroic Strikes. Having either a Feral Druid or Ret Paladin in place of a 3rd Rogue in that group would work wonders too, but I know some guilds prefer to run three Rogues and want them all in the same group.

 

mikebro

That's not entirely true. It isn't effected by weapon damage or attack power, but it is by crit and armor penetration. Other melee attacks just scale better.

 

Graul

All of your attacks are affected by crit and ArP, and while Recklessness is up you're taking crit out of the equation. You could also argue that it scales based off of your weapon damage. Hitting only 12 rage every GCD is getting pretty hard these days. Regardless, your other attacks scale much better which is why as your gear improves Execute's contribution should drop. It's just not as strong as it was before the expansion.

 

landsoul

Has anyone figured out if boss dodge rate is 6.2 or 6.5% yet? The test would be easily producible with 6.0, 6.25, and 6.5% dodge reduction on different test subjects.

Also, I see a lot of people always get 3/3 precision isntead of 2/2 improved execute and 1/3 precision. In my opinion extra hit is garbage and the difference between 7 rage executes and 12 or even 15 rage executes under heroism, haste potion, drums, and recklessness is absolutely amazing compared to the extra 2% hit. Why do people, some of which seem to know what they are doing and saying, still do this?

 

Giantlol

Lets you drop more hit off gear(if you still have any) towards the 9%
And 2% more hit for 80% of the bosses life(plus you're still doing white damage during the <20%) is probably worth more than the smaller rage cost for the last 20% of the bosses life
Don't quote me or anything, thats just how I see it(though I'm not fury, and haven't been for some time), not to mention people are just in that mindset, when has extra FREE hit from talents hurt?

 

Graul

Execute isn't even available for the first 80% of a fight. Hit also seems to be treated as the bastard child of stats. Just because it might be worth less per rating point, that doesn't make it entirely worthless. Spreadsheets seem to only give averages too, not really showing all of the times where you're sitting at 10 rage and have a bad miss streak, or where you are at 50 rage and suddenly spike well beyond 100.

 

landsoul

I definately agree with you there, but here's how I look at it when I dont take things into consideration like spreadsheets.

Passed the cap, you are only using the hit rating on a percentage of your main hand attacks, windfury, and your off-hand attacks.

Adding another 2 percent miss removal would push a someone with BT stuff from like 14% miss to 12% miss on these attacks. Yes I can see that it can remove maybe one or two miss streaks across an entire fight, but is that extra 4000 damage once or twice during a 7-10 minute fight going to overcome the extreme benefits of drastically increasing the power of the inzone of win?

Here's what 7 rage execute can give:
Increased frequency of special attacks
-> higher proc rates
-> higher Flurry Uptime
Increased damage of execute

 

Crimsonstorm

I use 3/3 Precision because my hit rating is barely over 95 (6%). I try to stack Armor Penetration as much as possible (under the soft cap), and its hard to get good pieces that have both hit rating and armor penetration.

Imp Execute is good but only for that 20% of boss fights. And execute isnt good on most trash, while the hit is of benefit there, so thats a small factor as well. I'd rather get the 32 itemization points (31.6 really) from 2% more hit, than have 5 rage cost reduction on executes.

Anohter factor might be that its easy to quanity my dps gain from 2 more precision ranks, but its hard to know how much I'd be getting from 5 rage cost reduction on executes. To be awesome, the Imp Execute has to change a 'not enough rage to execute' situation into 'enough rage'. How often does that occur? Im not sure.

 

Graul

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but the less chance I have for a rage drought without having to actually gear for hit the better. Haste is also compared to hit as well as a decent stat, yet it's extremely synergetic with hit and Windfury. The arguement about not needing hit for Windfury due to Heroic Strikes is pretty weak, because if your off hand isn't actually able to consistently hit (your only source of rage outside of any possible external damage or Windfury proc), you won't be using Heroics on every single swing. And the more haste you have, the more rage your off hand needs to be producing to keep up. I don't have multiple gear sets to prove or disprove this either, and it's just speculation on my end, but it makes perfect sense to me. Also, while your Executes may be more damaging, what happens when that 1%-2% miss kicks in and you missed a GCD while Executing?

 

Jiggs

Of course you will have a "less chance" of a rage drought with higher hit, but do you really ever hit this fabled rage drought while sitting just under a respectable 200 hit? I don't. With slow/slow, WF, and around 190 hit I never feel starved for rage while fury. I use heroic strike freely further reducing the benefit of a high hit rating. As you mentioned you don't really test these things. You should try dropping some hit and then talk about your proposed rage droughts.

When I was playing with around 160hit for a little while I would just watch my heroic strike use a little more closely, but still never sat there without rage for a BT/WW on cycle and was queueing HS's freely for the most part.

EDIT - to your execute statement. I can't remember sitting in execute phase while not being hasted out of my ass. Drums/heroism/haste pot/recklesscrits during execute phase make extra hit even worse. If/when you get that extra miss it really won't affect you at all because of the previously mentioned buffs, but the constant extra dmg you are putting out during execute due to higher AP/Arp more than makes up for that hasted out the ass miss.

 

• Mjollnir

With dual 2.5spd weapons, I have seen a fair shake of miss/dodge streaks.. even with 18% total hit and -4.75% dodge.
Having more hit, actually induces more dependable HStrike usage. This you've overlooked.
Never having rage issues > 105dmg more every 1.5sec for only 19% of a fight. In terms of minmax'ing, this one is probably best left to personal preference, and math left out of it.

 

Graul

I was almost not having enough rage for a few BT/WW last night on Brutallus and was having to manage rage more than I normally do with Heroic Strike useage. So yeah, I don't just "feel" it being a factor, I'm watching it in action. I don't have equivalent gear to swap out any of my slots either because I don't collect gear that other people still have a use for as well. Maybe having 250 - 400 more ArP would make up the difference in misses by simply generating more rage per hit. Maybe you don't monitor your rage nearly as much, or have just been extremely lucky with RNG, but I notice every single miss streak and with 242 rating.

 

Jiggs

Fair enough. Maybe im spoiled with having full time drums in the group. Afterall, we are just talking about "feeling" starved or not which is, as you said before, hard to measure. Back in the BT days when I would play around with different setups I would test a 4pc t6 fury setup with higher dps stats/ArP and lower hit (159) vs a set with similar stats, but higher hit (190) and my dps was always higher with the lower hit/higher damage setup. I also rarely felt short on rage.

From my experience I will never worry about hit rating as long as it's over 160ish and I have WF.

 

Graul