Relin

I was thinking of [Angelista's Revenge] next from the badge vendor to replace my ring from Kael, but I don't know how useful haste is for my current stats.

 

Kaan

Use the spreadsheet to see what happens when you exchange items. However, it would be a great increase.

 

abrb1234

So i was wondering with my current weapon setup (MH-Decapitator, OH- Akilzon's Talonblade) would it be worth picking up the badge off-hand fist( don't quite have enough for the MH too), and then using that in conjunction with either the talonblade(most likely) or the Decaptitator for MH. Also which is a more valuable ring enchant for a Fury Warrior, +2 weapon damage or +4 stats. This is all pertaining to a current progression level of early T6.

 

Obould

Regarding Ring enchants:

+4 Weapon damage (both rings enchanted)

The bonus gets added to the upper and lower part of the dmg range the weapon has lets compare Searing Sunblade / Dragonstrike / Catalysm Edge

Searing Sunblade
77 - 145 dmg
1,3speed
85,4dps

Searing Sunblade
77(+4) - 145(+4)dmg
1,3speed
88,46dps

3.06 dps increase

Dragonstrike
184 - 343dmg
2,7speed
97,6dps

Dragonstrike(+4dmg)
184(+4) - 343(+4)dmg
2,7speed
99,07dps

1,48dps increase

Catalysm Edge
386 - 580 weapon damage
3.5 speed
138dps

Catalysm Edge(+4 dmg)
386(+4) - 580(+4) weapon damage
3.5 speed
139,1dps

1,1dps increase


As you can see the better and SLOWER your weapon gets the less does this +4 weapon damage count for net dps gain.

+8 stats(on both rings)

For Warriors:

+ 8str = 16AP
+ 8agi = 0,24% crit

Okay and this should actually be better then +2dps

 

Gruntle

I'm using Talonblade+fast Badge OH combo currently, while saving up badges to the the MH fist. It's working really nice, rage generation is smooth and I can pump out HS at about 50-70% of my white swings (in SSC/TK + vengeful gear). Spreadsheets will very probably tell you that this combo is better (well, slow OH will also work in spreadsheets) than Decap+Badge OH, at least they did a couple of months ago.

Also, note that the calculation Obould did above for the ring enchant will be very different for fast weapons. Using fast weapons will more or less double the dps increase. For a 1.5 sec weapon, +4 damage will result in a 4/1.5=2.7 dps increase. A 2.7 sec weapon will get a 4/2.7=1.5 dps increase (Obould, your calculations are a bit wrong due to rounding and other things). This should be compared to the gain of 16 AP and 0.24% crit. If we assume that 1% crit increase the damage by 1% (i.e. disregarding second order effects like flurry), don't take rage generation into account and a 1000 dps baseline we get a:
16/14+1000*0.0024= 3.5 dps increase. So yeah, the stat enchant. Not sure how +2 weapon damage scales with haste though, perhaps the +2 dam enchant gets better when you're consistently hasted to sub-1 second weapon speed.

 

Obould

((Lower DMG + Upper DMG) / 2) / WeaponSpeed

[Dragonstrike]

((184+343)/2)/2,7 = 97,592592

and now with +4 weapon damage

((184+4+343+4)/2)/2,7 = 99,0740740

1,48dps gain

Yup some rounding errors upps, see 2 posts above for corrected numbers.

Regarding haste, it does not really change anything because lets take Dragonstrike again and we put the above formula into the equation then assume haveing eg: 135 Haste Rating (Haste Rating: 10.5 rating grants 1% haste ) 12,85% Haste.
You have the Haste with or without the ring enchants.

I took this 135 Haste Rating number from The Sunwell Fury Warrior - Gear Choices @ 25.04.2008 - 03:34 | Nihilum.eu - MMORPG Gaming Guild and Community

Lets say we dont have a + weapon damage ring enchant now. The speed from the Dragonstrike would be 0.347 faster so WeaponSpeed = 2.35

((184+343)/2)/2,35 = 112,1276dps

and with +4 weapon ring

((184+4+343+4)/2)/2,35 = 113,829dps

1.70dps gain or ~ plus 0.2 compared to 0% Haste versus 12,85% Haste

 

Gruntle

Voxx, the section on sharpening stones need to be updated. It has been proven that Adamantite stones add 12 damage to both MH and OH when applied to the OH. This makes them better than Elemental stones and certainly better than the Righteous oil.

edit: I'm not sure what you mean Obould, you have shown that haste rating actually does increase the gain of +weapon damage. If you were hasted to 1 sec with Dragonstrike (kind of hard, but I guess it could be possible with maximum haste effects stacked) you would gain 4/1= 4 dps. No need to make calculations of min and max damage the only thing that matters is the +weapon damage and the weapon speed. The question is however if +weapon speed really works that way with haste, or if it is normalized in some way (perhaps always using base speed).

 

Whistles

You could always just swap out a +8 Hit gem with the epic version (Rigid Lionseye +10 Hit). They're available for badges now. That being said .06% chance to miss on specials isn't a huge thing to be worrying about. Expertise doesn't change miss rate, only dodge and parry so it isn't related.

 

Voxx

Updated the section on sharpening stones, thanks Gruntle... thought I'd changed it earlier but I was wrong apparently.

 

zonekiller

Ok, I really wanted to find out this before, but I have been slow. After 2.4.2 is live, Dragostrike is now a one-handed weapon, and I was wondering if the haste proc can stack.
Please tell me if this is a repost or anything, and I will delete this post. If this is a repost, please leave a link to it also, thanks in advance!

 

Giantlol

Unfortunately, I don't have a link, but I think in one of the DPS warrior threads(Check out the Fury warrior spreadsaheet maybe) there was a link showing that Dragonstrikes were refreshing and not stacking haste buffs

 

• Aeverius

Correct, as discussed in both enhancement shaman and warrior threads, and shown in screenshot posted here.

 

np|Georgious

You could add the sunwell bosse's armorvalues.

[RAID] Boss armor values

 

DKP-Borgar

It might have been answered already , but could you explain a little bit more the benefits or resemblance of haste and hit? Haste influences the same mechanics as hit. More hit means more rage, faster hits also.
I wonder if haste replaces hit in T6 and Sunwell content. I see myself running around in less and less hit but more ArP and a bit of haste that seems to catch the hit-concerns, am I right?

 

Graul

Haste has an effect on Heroic Strikes and in turn WF procs. The amount of haste on some of the Sunwell items makes it a very attractive stat on those pieces, but you still do need to keep a minimal hit rating even beyond the specials cap. It also seems like hit becomes more important the more haste you have in general or else there isn't much difference except when using Heroic Strike. At least with a 17/44 build anyway. 33/28 might see larger gains due to being able to reach the hit cap so easily.

 

DKP-Borgar

I only speak from a 17/44 perspective right now. I'll try some napkin math to present a solution when hit or haste is more useful.

1% hit offers: 1 more white hit
1% haste offers: 1 more swing

Let's say we have a 1dps weapon with 1,0 sec swing time (no flurry, no special attacks) and we only look at 1 weapon (the numbers would be different but the outcome the same just multiply damage x 0,625 offhand malus)
100 seconds= 100 swings.
dw-penalty and some ~18% hit,30crit, full expertise
A simplified combat table would look like this, attacking from behind:
1. Miss - 10%
2. Dodge - 0%
3. Parry - 0%
4. Glancing - 25% (for simplicity glancing blow= 0,65 dps)
5. Block - 0%
6. Critical - 30% (for simplcity only double dmg not skilled with RED,123%)
7. Crushing - 0%
8. Normal Hit - 35%

in 100 seconds: 35x 1 dps + 30x 2 dps + 25x 0,65 dps + 10x 0 dps = 111,25 dps

we gain 1% hit
36x 1 dps + 30x 2 dps + 25x 0,65 dps + 9x 0 dps = 112,25 dps

we gain 1% haste
in 100 seconds 101 swings:
35x 1 dps + 30x 2 dps + 25x 0,65 dps + 10x 0 dps + 1x swing with combat table probability = 111,25 + ? could be a crit/miss/hit/glancing

~113,25 crit with 30%
~112,25 hit with 35%
~111,90 glancing blow 25%
~111,25 miss with 10%

This means 1% hit equals 1dps of your dmg here. And 1% Haste equals 1 undefined swing that might bring more or less or no damage.

Well I don't know it seems Haste adds a bit of everything depending on your luck. More crit might result in higher dmg, but it still yields the possibilty of gaining only misses.

Having 36% crits, 10% misses, 25% glacings would be necessary to net a higher chance to have a possitive results in swings over an extended period.
Misses, dodges and glancings provide the base to what one would have to decide wether haste or hit is better.

BUT special mainhand attacks ( not modelled in my napkin math) push the misses and glancings off the table, so I guess the truth is Haste will be better, if rage prodcution is stable enough. So as most spreadsheets show it, haste will be better than hit most of the time.

 

Gruntle

Haste has always been better than hit since the hasted "extra swings" can crit (which the "extra hits" from +hit cannot). With HS spam, if you have enough rage for doing HS at almost every white hit ("almost every" being a subject of speculation for most people), haste will gain even more since you're basically hasting your yellow HS hits that cannot miss. Some people claim haste will also overtake crit at this limit.

 

DKP-Borgar

Well I haven't been that sure.
For haste to be effective you need enough rage and hits + misses or dodges factor in. Another problem is that your offhand can't be heroic striked in any way. So there must be some kind of minimal standards to have a gain in using haste above hit. As i see it, the tradeoff haste vs. hit in sunwell gear needs to be adressed by some kind of equation, that I am probably not smat enough to think of. Or I think to complex in terme of haste usage, I don't know.

Even if haste does produce more rage, does it come in chunks or more stable? With a slow/slow setup as I am running it might be better to use haste but at the cost of hit I am really unsure...

Rage generation offhand seems to play a big part in effective haste usage too. Can I HS on every strike, without loosing my rotation? This questions then refers to available buffs, meaning drums, haste potions, wf totems or else. Does anybody has an estimation which stats and what kind of weapon speed are most suited for constant high offhand rage generation (besides "get everything you can get")? Or the exact amount of rage flow deilvered by BT,WW and your offhand to have a perfect rotation AND HS on every mainhand attack? Then landsouls spreadsheet could be used to extract the most useful buff combination with one's equip, if you can choose/influence raid buffs, to enable full HS usage. 20 Hit food comes to my mind or taking a haste ring instead of a crit and ap ring.

 

Gruntle

landsoul's sheet calculates all of this DKP-Borgar. Hit is better than haste below the cap of course, but from the sheet you will get that haste is better after the soft hit cap is reached.

The sheet also tells you that at high enough gear (and buff) levels you will have enough rage generation for continuous HS spam (in particular in fights with steady incoming damage). At that point the SEP values for haste goes up by a lot. Which weapon combo to use when maximizing HS spam damage was discussed in the Future of DPS warrior thread a week or two ago, we didn't really come to any conclusions. But even in this high-end limit hit food is a bad idea, str food will give almost the double dps. The sheet cannot be used to find out what weapon speed are preferred, rage generation is modeled as rage/sec in that sheet, it's not a swing simulator.

 

Kaan

When you spam HS more, hit loses SEP and haste gets better. This is because hit then more or less only affects your offhand, and haste then affects more of your yellow damage (Heroic Strike).

According to your example with the 1,00 speed weapon:

Now take two 1,00 speed weapons for mainhand and offhand - haste speeds both up. In 100 attacks, 1% hit will be one attack more, if I read it right. With 1% haste you will have probably 2 hits more (mainhand and offhand) with this scenario, both can crit, glance, miss, or hit normally. However, 1% haste will clearly be better in most of the times, especially with the usage of HS.

Not without steady incoming damage. Take the worst example, when you have zero incoming damage: your offhand needs to crit all the time with very high damage to deliver enough rage to HS every time AND sustain the standard cycle (BT, WW, Rampage and perhaps sometimes Demoshouts). Of course, your offhand can't crit every time and your offhand won't have so high damage that it gives 12 rage for hs, 30 rage for BT, 25 rage for WW and 20 Rage for Rampage (perhaps 10 rage more for Demo Shout, or even more when Demo Shout resists - and of course every 2 min Battle Shout), because our offhand only does 65% of the damage, the mainhand would do. However, for steady HSing I would prefer a fast offhand because it's simply steadier rage income, and better to plan.

There are fights like Teron, you have sometimes high damage income, and sometimes only little or zero damage income. In this fights you can almost every time press HS. However for HS spamming like the warrior against patchwerk pre-BC with 1550 dps, you need insane buffs and some luck with your offhand, to sustain HS and the standard cycle without any damage income, even with the best equipment available. Note: a warrior equipped best-in-slot with Sunwell gear, only has about 130 to 160 hitrating.

 

Shha

Well since we discuss heroic strike - Id like to put some new topic under discussion. Basically would like to know people feelings/opinions.

When i started to get Sunwell upgrades, i noticed a lot of increased rage generation and haste. At some point i started to shift my "dps routine" because of that. I found that much more often Im getting past 100 rage then rage starved. As a result i lowered my "heroic strike treshold" to much lower value. Instead of getting like 50-60 rage before using HS, i started to do it as low as 20. Basically watching a gcd a bit, but if next instant wasnt "ready" or "almost ready" i would just play on the chance ill get enough rage. It surprisingly (because i wasnt too convinced beforehand) started to up my dps quiet a bit. I think the following are factors:

- Badge Claws + around 150 haste i have already, perma drums, Dst procs put my average haste at around 320, and haste at 20%. That means flurried weapon speed at 1.65 or below on average. Its close enough to GCD, that when i use heroic+instant a bit after, it has a good chance of getting another set of "non heroiced" MH/OH before GCD comes up.

- I noticed that while I lost some BT and WW this way, its a very small amount (Id say I BT around every 6.5 second not 6 and about same 0.5 delay on WW). Around 8% or so less number wise. However my DAMAGE from BT/WW remained well - not unchanged, but it changed a lot less. What happened, is that my damage on those skills went up substantially - especially on BT. Reason seems to be simple and confirmed by the logs (lots of close to 6k BT) - doing it this way increases drastically the chance of getting "Windfuried BT". Since I dont have rage for BT - it tends to go off instantly after MH attack when spammed - exactly when WF attacks proc. A WF attack gives you 446*1.3(imp totems)*1.1(unleashed rage)*1.1(imp zerker) = 700 extra ap. If you press BT right as they happen it does work with BT damage. Same for Whirlwind.

So the question is
- does anyone else tried it out?
- do other people experience "windfuried instants", or is it result of my lag (playing at 500ms from europe on US servers).

 

DKP-Borgar

Interesting point with all the haste gear and procs.
Sadly I don't have any clue to test windfury BTs.What comes to my mind is the question weapon speed. A fast weapon would yield the same advantages as a hasted slow one. Of course less max. dmg.
Have you tried windfury BTs with a faster setup? e.g. execute phase with a fast mh?

 

gemmanite

yeah, I noticed in a recent version of Recount that windfury procs are counted separately now and windfuried specials appear on the damage breakdown list.

 

abrb1234

What;s everyone's opinion on the fast badge offhand versus the slow one... the MH fist from Hyjal trash is my MH currently.

 

np|Georgious