LeythG_KI_bladesedge

Thanks for the advice guys, fortunately some great drops came my way in the past 2 raids. Check out my new build I think its better.

I'm doing some sick dps in raids now and am quite satisfied with it. However, I've come across a new issue. Armor Pen and Haste.

I recently acquired Swiftsteel bracers [Swiftsteel Bracers] and I'm not really sure how these effect my DPS as opposed to having the bracers of eradication that are equipped on wowarmory.

You suggested Executioner on my MH and i tend to see more and more people do the Exec/mongoose on MH/OH. Is armor pen that viable? how does it compare to other stats if it is possible to compare them?

Another problem I have is the other fury warrior tends to pull away from me really quickly once boss is at 20%. What kind of things should i focus on doing at 20% when execute opens up?

I have been equipping my gladiators quickblade and popping recklessness/bloodrage/beserker rage and spam execute and then start throwing in BT's into the mix. Is this wrong? or is there something better I could be doing?

Thanks ahead for your replies, I think i'm doing alright for DPS(normally in the top 5) but hey why not shoot for top 3 or 1st place right?

 

Werelds

The Hit/Crit on the Bracers of Eradication completely outweigh the haste on the Swiftsteel ones in my opinion.

The whole problem with haste items is that they give haste instead (rather than in addition to) of our basic stats while providing a smaller DPS increase point per point.
Haste itself is fine (personally I find it amazing, but that aside), but 9/10 haste items require you to give up too much other valuable stats. Way too costly.

Stick with the Eradication ones in this case.

It provides an increase similar to strength; however, the more ArP you get, the more effective it becomes. And while you're doing your thing, you get some procs/trinkets/potions going, making the ArP even more effective. I'll see if I can find you a good post explaining all the details (pretty sure the OP has some details in it), but suffice it to say that it is probably the most valuable stat after getting Hit/Expertise capped (for as far as that is possible anyway).

Execute on every GCD, and only use BT if your rage spikes beyond 30 (for the exact numbers, check out the original post). Don't do 100-rage executes, the less rage you spend on an execute the better really, just don't waste any GCD by being rage starved.

 

• Mjollnir

Horrible advice.
If you have rage, burn it. The whole warrior class revolves around getting rid of rage that white hits generate. The mindset you should adopt is 'rage is your enemy; get rid of it'.

[Edit] For clarity: this is in an endless rage senario, such as being raid buffed with group compositions intact.

 

Werelds

If you're sitting at 100 rage permanently in the <20% region, you'll get more DPS done by switching to slower weapons. Slightly less rage income, but overall it'll increase your damage when you take windfury and such into account.

Let's assume you're in the <20% region, and you've got 100 rage and that you have the 2pc T6 bonus. For BT, I'll take my own situation as an example, my gear isn't perfect yet. With an Enhancement shammy I'm sitting at ~3900 AP, without any procs.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong with the stuff below, I'm doing the maths from the top of my head here.
- A full 100 rage execute does 925 + 21*88 = 2773 damage. Assuming you gain 25 rage back, you do another 925 + 21*13 = 1198 damage on the next GCD. Total of 3971.
- BT would do (3900*45) / 100 = 1755 damage. Leaves you with 70 rage but as above, over the GCD you gain another 25 rage, resulting in 925 + 21*83 = 2668 damage for the following Execute. Total of 4423.

Quite a big difference if you ask me, and depending on your gear, the 4pc T6 bonus can make BT even more valuable, as can several consumables/procs.

That's why I told him to use BT if he spikes past 30 (but ONLY then). Personally, I'm generally at ~25 rage during execute phases, sometimes it jumps up a bit with a few white/windfury crits in a row, I hit BT once and continue executing. As far as I know, this is what most do; and it works fine for me. I also don't switch to faster weapons during the Execute phases, as I already have enough rage for an Execute every GCD.



DISCLAIMER: Math might be flawed, but this is how I thought it worked; if it's different let me know please.

 

Waagaa

Regarding execute spam vs BT + Execute spam:

I saw Landolph of Nihilum's movie on Teron Gorefiend and he popped BT whenever it was off CD, else he spammed Execute. There is an amount of AP where it's better to use 30 rage on BT when it's off CD than to spend those 30 rage on an execute of any amount of rage. Given that Execute does a fixed amount of damage per 30 rage (before mitigation) and there probably being a known formula for BT's damage, we should be able to calculate at what amount of AP BT is better to use on a CD than Execute of any type.

Of course we'd also have to take into account the chances of rage "overflowing" and missed damage because of only using 30 rage on that GCD.

 

Werelds

Just to quote the original post:
I just tried to explain why that is exactly, with some damage numbers.

It's all in the original post and/or ThinkTank guys!

 

Gruntle

Werelds, your BT vs execute comparison is probably correct, what it boils down to is that at 30+ rage BT is more rage efficient than Execute (this is in the Compendium already Waagaa, read the first post). However you make some false assumptions regarding rage and weapon speeds.
If you're not using WW during execute phase this is just not true. Windfury is not better with slow weapons. The point in using fast weapons for execute is that you have
a) less risk of getting over the rage cap, rage come in small chunks rather than big
b) bigger chance of getting above 12/15 rage per gcd.

What I think Mjollnir meant was that if you're stuck with 100 rage every gcd (or rather that the next swing will take you over 100) you will be better off using execute every gcd to really use up all the rage. If rage efficiency is not important a 100 rage execute will still hit a lot harder than BT.

Compare these two situations (assuming 3900 AP):
1. You get 30 rage per GCD. You can do either 1 BT or 1 30 rage execute per gcd (3900*0.45=1755 vs 925+21*18=1303). BT wins clearly.
2. You get 100 rage per GCD. You can do either 1 BT (wasting 70 rage per gcd) or 1 100 rage execute (1755 vs 2773). Execute is the clear winner.

You could of course make use of HS as well, this would make things a bit better for BT, but at 100 rage per gcd I don't think anything beats Execute. And using HS will mean that your rage generation for the next gcd is more than halfed.

 

Voxx

Khayre sums it up pretty well, it boils down to a matter of rage efficiency.

Taking your original example of 3900 AP and BT hitting for 1755 damage, the amount of rage you would need to be generating per GCD for Execute spam to outweigh Bloodthirst on CD would be:

1755 - 925 = 830
830 / 21 = 40 (rounded up because rage cannot be generated in halves)

40 + 12 = 52 rage per GCD with the 2 pc t4 bonus.
55 rage per GCD without it.

Most warriors at a relatively high gear level won't have a problem hitting 55/52 rage per GCD under Heroism/Recklessness/Haste Pot etc, but I think it would come down to specific gear situations as well as buff circumstances to determine when exactly you should stop spamming Execute and start using Bloodthirst as well.

 

Waagaa

I have read the first post, but the first post compares execute and BT at 30 rage. What I was saying was there is a point where BT is better than an execute of any amount of rage and the only thing that matters then is the amount of rage wasted due to overflow.

When your rage sits at 100 rage permanently, efficiency is less of an issue than managing your GCD use.

 

Shha

Yea like I said most of the time I just completely ignore the myths around the executes. In particular:

- At my gear level BT doesnt outperform execute 90% of the time. If anything what I found is that either
- I get around 60 rage if stuff crits and not misses.
- I get below 30 rage if i get glancings x2 , mh miss etc.
Remember BT usually outperforms execute in the very small range of 30-55 rage. If you are above 55 rage you lose more by using BT due to big risk of wasting rage. Maybe its my weapons but it really RARELY lands in this range - never during recklessness too.

- Slow weapons are better. Frankly: i use 2.5/2.5 setup (This week i tried grip of mannoroth, but honestly it wasnt too impressive. The dps sucked mostly because of outside reasons though - Im a raid leader, so whenever raid goes not-so-smooth, I rarely pay attention to my own dps. We basically 1 shotted stuff but every boss it was a huge mess this week lol. Either way ill give it a shot next week). Hasted its 2.25/2.25. During heroism its at 1.73. Add drums and flurry and they work at 1.31 speed during executes. Really 1.31 speed is fast enough. With 12 rage executes and 2 slow weapons even glancing from OH seems to generate enough rage for execute. So only when i get a Miss/Miss there is a problem. With around 12% miss chance, the chance of it occuring is only ay 1.44%. Risk im willing to take . On the upside i get actually more steady rage, without problems with it spiking too high or too low.

 

Werelds

See, and that's where my situation somehow differs. As I said, I'm generally sitting at 25 rage on every GCD during the final phases, and when it spikes up it typically goes to ~50 rage (please note that this obviously doesn't go for encounters where you sit at 100 rage due to incoming damage, such as Teron or RoS), meaning I can safely do BT and have another 40-50ish Execute on the next GCD, which in turn still does more damage than two seperate executes at that point.

It's probably because I don't switch to 2 fast weapons though?

And I'm in the same boat as you Shha, I'm the GM of my guild and although I let my officers and raid leaders take care of most stuff, when people start slacking and screwing up the 'regular' members generally only start paying attention once I take over.

 

Cleah

I have read through the DPS war compendium and have also been tinkering around with the latest DPS war spreadsheet that I dled from EJ.

I have the dubious honor of raiding as the MS/BF war for my guild and ran across a question. The compendium (at least it seemed to me...correct me if i'm wrong) indicates that firstly you want to aim for 142 hit (9%) if you don't have precision (which I don't, being MS/BF). However, the spreadsheet I have been tinkering with appears to only have me shooting for 79 (5%) as a MS/BF specced war.

So I am not sure which number to shoot for...I can do either one with the gear I have now, but getting 142 hit drops my ar pen significantly.

Would appreciate any help. I also apologize if this has been covered before, I am new to the forum, and in this case would just appreciate the link to the thread where this is covered.

Thank you

 

Whistles

You want 9% hit from somewhere, be that hit rating or talents as any specced DPS warrior. That should be the first thing you aim for.

 

Cleah

Ok thanks

 

Wump

What sheet are you using "from EJ"?

There are two. One from Landsoul which is 2.4+ and built for Fury. The other from Grim13 which is for 2.3+ and models both 2H and Fury.

Armor Pen is great, however for both builds, I can't see how being under the hit soft-cap is beneficial in any circumstance.

 

Cleah

Sorry, I am using the Grim v3.41 sheet

 

• Mjollnir

If the 5% is indeed true (based on the spreadsheet), it is more than likely taking external de/buffs into account, such as Imp FF from a Boomkin.

 

Bulvine

I have question regarding sharpening/weight stones and windfury. The +damage from sharpening stones stacks from everything i've read. So if I put a stone on each weapon I get +24 damage on each. Traditionally when I have windfury I won't put a stone on my main hand weapon. Now that i've read that the damage bonus stacks, should I be putting stone on my MH weapon even if I have WF?

 

◊ Merple

Stones and Windfury do not stack. Ever.

On Break?

 

Voxx

Stones never stack - as stated above - and Windfury is a much greater dps increase than a sharpening stone, even though it applies to both weapons.

Edit: Updated the original post to reflect 6.25% as the Expertise "cap." This is done in light of the idea that 6.25% is close enough to the cap as we can determine at the present time without grossly overshooting the cap. The only combinations that could easily overshoot this "cap" with the current itemization would be Humans/Orcs with Weapon Mastery and some additional item with Expertise (like T6 Belt).

 

DKP-Borgar

Concerning the rage-discussion on executes. Does anybody know an addon, that shows the current rage generation in some kind of graph, as in recount for example?
I actually would like to know, how my rages behaves at certain fight stages.

 

Thearmenian

thx

 

landsoul

I dont know how that is right, maybe you have an option selected wrong or the sheet doesnt account for you hitting a boss?

 

landsoul