Bronwyn

Just a question on secondary weapon buffs (offhand). The thread seems to suggest that adamantite sharpening stones are superior to righteous weapon coating. Can that be true? Why?

http://www.dkpsigs.com/sigs/Alleria/79591.jpg

 

Flaps

Because the extra weapondmg from the sharpening stone applies to your mainhand aswell, resulting in more dps gain than the coating

 

Bronwyn

Thank you, Flaps! I didn't know that it increased MH DPS as well!

So wth will I do with my 200 or so weapon coatings -.-

http://www.dkpsigs.com/sigs/Alleria/79591.jpg

 

Glory

Use them on the Island/Magisters Terasse/Sunwell Trash, Like Bloodberry Pots.

I've read that the Sharpening Stones also inc BT dmg by 12 befor Armor, you wont see it in the Tooltip but somebody did evaluate this with lots of Combatloging on the Servants in Blasted.

just look here [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond

 

Gruntle

What do you mean Glory? The link you provided states exactly what Flaps said above. Sharpening stones add their +weapon damage to both MH and OH. You seem to mean that the coating does that too? That is not correct and you should refrain from spreading uninformed rumours. I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you but "inc BT dmg by 12 befor Armor" just makes no sense at all to me.

 

Glory

Did you look at the reference? I've screwed up the Words Weapon Coating and Sharpening Stone, but its corrected.

So Sharpening Stones do not only add +12 Dmg on Main and Offhand, they also do add +12 DMG on BT (Bloodthirst) (befor Armor Mitigation of course), but these +12 Dmg on BT is not seen in the BT tooltip.

 

• landsoul

If it does then its a pretty bad error by Blizzard. Clearly the item says increases weapon damage right? Why would they change the mechanic of the item and not update the tooltip properly?

 

Glory

Bloodthirst is the only spell that changes its tooltip. No other Spell i know now, changes its Tooltip. (Victory Rush=BT)

MS does not, all Spells i know dont, rip doesnt, rogues i dont know.

So BT/VR is the only Spell -> High chance of Errors.

If you want to test ist: Go Scarlet Monastry, no gear grey Weapons -> lowest AP possible. 2 Weapons you sharp 2 Weapons you dont. Sunder the Armor of the mobs (-> 0 Armor) -> if BT no Crit with 2 Sharpened Weapons does 24 more dmg than the other Weapons you got got the answer

 

• landsoul

I meant the tooltip of the stone not the tooltip of the skill.

If it affected BT then it would say " increases damage dealt by 12 when used on a weapon "

not "increase weapon damage by 12"

Anyways, I tested it out too. Each stone increases BT damage dealt by 12. Video proof:

sharpstonetest.avi - FileFront.com

 

Bronwyn

Thanks for the insightful answers on Sharpening Stones.

My final problem now seems to be that I want to stop wasting a trinket slot for Shard of Contempt (I know it's necessary now ...)

But given an onslaught belt, human racial and 2% from talents, Shard is NOT the best Choice anymore. What I'd like to know is: what ways are there to increase expertise for a warrior?

Besides:
onslaught belt
dragonscale-encrusted longblade
shard of contempt
racial bonuses and talents

and:
def gear / blue gear which would be stupid to wear in the first place ...

I've been looking for ways to increase my expertise but haven't found anything besides the things mentioned up there ...

Edit: I actually found something [Nightstrike] gives you 2.5 Expertise (which goes up to 3 with onslaught belt). This might actually be worth it ...

8 (Talent) + 5 (Racial) + 6 (Onslaught Belt) = 19 Exp = 4.75%
8 (Talent) + 5 (Racial) + 6 (Onslaught Belt) + 3 (Nightstrike) = 22 Exp = 5.5%

5.5% would allow to get BNS or MotB, right? Please correct me if I'm far off with my assumptions ...

http://www.dkpsigs.com/sigs/Alleria/79591.jpg

 

Gruntle

Hmm, I would use the spreadsheet to try and evaluate this Bronwyn. With 5.5% anti-dodge about 32 of the expertise rating on the shard is wasted. It seems very likely that MoTB/BNS would give more damage in that case. But you also have to consider what you lose by using Nightstrike as a thrown weapon.

I think it's likely that it's better dps-wise to use BNS/MOTB and just accept that you will have about 0.75% dodges. A dodge now and then will not kill your dps as DW fury.

 

Glory

What is the exact dodge % of a boss?

is it 5.6%? 6.5% or 6.25%?

if it is 6.5% you are as Human/Orc Expertise Capped with Onslaugt Belt, SoC, 1 Point in Weapon Master, and your Racial.

-> you can spend 1 Point into what you want.

IE:
Piercing Howl (Nice for Felmyst)
Improved Execute (Execute for 10 Rage, if you have a Mainhand miss and only an Offhand hit/crit you can Execute more often on GCD)
Improved Berserker Rage (10 Rage for 1 Min -> One Point for 5 Rage per minute (Better than 5 Points in Unbridled Wrath and you can use it when you need the Rage)

For your Ranged Weapon + MotB vs SoC + Golden Bow of Quelthalas/Ancient Amani Longbow

+ 30 Hit ( ~ 2%)
- 8 Expertise (4 Wasted but you can pick up another Talent) ~1%
+ 16 Stamina
- 0/18 Agility
- ~ 110 Ap (SoC procc included)
- ~ 20-50 Armor Penetration (MoTB procc included)

Only the 2% Hit you win is about the same Worth as the 1% Dodge you loose. (depending on how much Hit you have -> more hit -> more HS -> you need less Hit because white dmg takes less % of your overall dmg (WF count as white hits, but if you hit with HS you cant miss -> you have exact 20% chance to procc, WF cant proc on HS dodges)

 

Gruntle

I haven't seen any more statistics on boss dodge chances than the one I computed a while back (in this thread):
DPS Compendium

We don't know the exact dodge chance, it would be helpful if someone could post a log or many logs of running with 6.5 antidodge (or 6.25). In any case, as Voxx writes in the compendium, 6.25 should be treated as the practical cap, so far I haven't seen anyone posting logs with dodges and using this much expertise.

I agree that using that gear and speccing 1/2 WM + 1/2 imp execute (or +1 in Precision if you already have imp execute) could be a good idea. Again, using one of the spreadsheets can help.

UBW is using a 15 ppm (3 per talent point) rage mechanic according to tests by Rezarel (reported somewhere on the EJ forum, can't seem to find it now), thus 5/5 UBW is way better than 1/2 Imp zerker rage, although per talent point it is of course better.

 

FAME

The number that you are looking for is 17 Expertise (-4.25% dodge) which with talents (-2% dodge from Weapon Mastery) puts you at the cap of 6.25%. You getting 5 from Racial and 6 from T6 belt which only leaves you 6 Expertise short of the cap. You can try [Brooch of Deftness] wihich will put you at 16 Expertise (4.00) leaving you only .25% shy of the cap.

 

Glory

I think per Point if you have Points left, I think Precision should always be fully skilled, Imp Demoshout should be skilled by 1 Warrior for Curse of Recklessnes -> 1 Point is worth 160 Armor penetration >> Unbridled Wrath

Imp Demo > Precision > Imp Execute > Imp Berserker Rage > Unbridled Wrath > Booming Voice

 

Kaan

I wear Shard of Contempt with T6-Belt and play a human warrior, so my expertise is 22 (5,5% antidodge). However, my Offhand is a Fist weapon, so my offhand only has 17 Expertise or 4,25% Antidodge. The sheet shows me a clear decrease in DPS, when I switch SoC with TT / BC / MotB, so this is no option. Therefore I tried to put the 1 wasted talont point from weapon mastery into a more useful talent. I'm playing with 2/2 Whirlwind atm, to have a smoother rotation, that rarely collides with BT cooldown. I don't need 5 rage from berserker rage, neither the -2 Rage on Execute for only <20% phase of a bossfight, that anyway won't help me. So this is the best option for 1 excess talent point, I think.

 

Gruntle

I agree. In your first post you said that 1/2 Imp zerk rage was better than 5/5 UBW, that's what I disagreed with. But since you don't have 5 free points that point is kind of moot.

To Kaan, 2/2 Imp WW is a pretty solid choice, since it allows for some slack in the 3BT/2WW rotation. Particularly useful if you run with 200+ latency. I wouldn't spec out of 2/2 WM when you have 5.5% antidodge on MH and 4.75 on OH though, you may lose the benefit of ~0.25 % antidodge on the MH, but that talent point is still well spent.

 

Polishedhead

I cant see how latency would make your 18 second rotation harder to perform. Maybe it will extend it to 18.5 or 19 seconds but this isn't going to make a second point in Improved Whirlwind helpful. Correct me if i'm wrong.

The above poster is right though, if you're 0.75% off the cap on your mainhand and over 1% off the cap on your offhand, the last point in Weapon Mastery is still worth it.

 

Gruntle

The 18 sec cycle is:
0. BT
1.5 WW
3. free
4.5 free
6 BT
7.5 free
9. free
10.5 WW
12. BT
13.5 free
15 free
16.5 free
18 BT (starts over)

In practice the cycle will always be closer to 18.5-19 sec than 18 sec just due to latency (5 instants, 0.1-0.2 sec latency for each of them), and perhaps even longer if you include human error. As an example consider this situation:

You're 0.5 sec late with doing the first WW (due to latency or human error or whatever), your cycle will be messed up due to WW becoming available at 11. and making the gcd delay the third BT by 0.5 sec. Having 2/2 Imp WW allow you to do that WW at 10. instead and BT is not affected. This is of course just an example, but having 2/2 imp WW allows you to tighten the cycle and bring it closer to 18 sec. You will still lose some time at each BT, but you can actually shave off up to 1 sec per cycle by having Imp WW.

 

Bulvine

Recently I obtained [Helm of the Illidari Shatterer] to replace [Onslaught Battle-Helm] and [Choker of Endless Nightmares] to replace [Choker of Serrated Blades]. Both spreadsheets and maxdps show both of these items as clear upgrades. I have WWS of before and after, my dps is pretty much the same. But I feel like I have to work harder to attain the same dps.

I'm assuming its the ArP I gave up when I upgraded. I lost 280 ArP and 8 Str to gain 2AP, 2% Crit, 1.33% Hit. This dropped my ArP to ~395 total. Has anybody else had a similar experience when upgrading other stats but losing ArP?

My question is not intended to be a gear specific question, but more of a general question.

 

Shha

Im not sure how you count it as 1.33% hit. The choker alone is 1.33%, and helmet is another 2.16%. You lost 41 agi/7 str before kings and 280 ArP, but gained 1.22%(choker) 2.16% crit aka 3.38%. 41 agi with kings is more or less 1.38% crit, so you indeed get 2% crit and 3.5% hit vs losing 280 arp and 13.5ap. So thats theory.

Now in reality your dps from fight to fight will differ more from random factors then singular upgrades. So dont worry, just keep going, eventually you will see the difference.

What does it mean "work harder"? If anything those upgrades make it easier to dps, since they focus on boosting crit (rage), and hit (rage smoothness). Its much easier to micromanage your new setup.

 

Bulvine

What I mean by work harder is I feel like I need watch my rotation better, keep it as tight as possible. I do seem to have more rage to burn on HS, my rage bar can spike to full very easily.

I think that i'm getting threat capped, I'm in the stacked group BM Hunter, Feral, Enh Shammy, Rogue, Warrior(me). I've also gotten 5 upgrades(boots, cloak, ammy, helm and shoulders) over the last 4 weeks. Since i've gotten these upgrades i'm always right under the tank on the threat meter, and many times have to back off of HS. This may also be why I feel like I have to "work harder".

 

Glory

If you have Threat problems because you Tanks are not equal equiped -> force your Shaman to drop Antiaggro/WF not Agi/WF.

If your Tanks have equal gear they are maybe bad or not good supported.

--> Feral in Tank grp -> around 4-5% more Aggro
--> Moonkin (Force for imp FF) -> over 3% more Aggro
--> If your Maintank is a Feral Druid --> BM hunters in his grp -> ~3% more Aggro per BM
--> Let a Heal Shaman drop WF/Agi (Warrior/Druid) for your Tanks to support their Aggro
--> Survival Hunters are also nice for Tank aggro
--> CoR is nice for their aggro
--> Ret paladin's Seal for 3% crit Inc Tank aggro more than yours.
--> Do your Tanks have Aggro Gear (Such like SoC as an Aggro Trinket)

If nothing Helps --> Let a Warlock give you a Soulstone and you have your own Aggro reset :p

 

Kaan

@Gruntle & Polishedhead: 5,5% antidodge without weapon mastery, so the 1 Point spent in WM brings the MH right on the Exp Cap with 6,5% antidodge. My offhand though is 0,95% antidodge short of the cap (according to landsoul's sheet), but this isn't a problem, a 2,6 offhand hits rarely enough that I almost see no dodges (what bothers me sometimes, is a Whirlwind with offhand being dodged, but this is extremely rare). Thanks on your opinons on this anyway.

@Bulvine: I think it's normal to get trained to a few new items as a warrior. You will see a nice DPS increase in time. But I think the more rage and less hitstreaks you have now should catching your attention anyway.

 

Bronwyn

This is very interesting. If you actually save up to 1 sec per cycle, then you pretty much gain a whole cycle over the duration of a Brutallus fight. If you assume 3000 average BTs and 2000 average WWs, then you are looking at 13,000 damage you win in 6 minutes.

2000 dps = 720,000 damage
2036 dps = 733,000 damage

In this purely theoretical scenario the 2/2 ww would give you upwards of 30 dps, which is a lot more than either 1/2 imp. execute or 1/2 imp. zerk rage.

http://www.dkpsigs.com/sigs/Alleria/79591.jpg